Québec's destiny will be decided by Québécois.

[cub1c]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will be decided by Québécois.

[
I don't think those kind of things are availaible right now, because we are still a couple of years from year 1 of our country. Be patient, it will come.

I find that almost laughable considering economic policy is centeral to a county's survival. That and the fact that this "issue" is so old, the PQ et al have had decades to come up with a sellable plan.

In a time where everytime goes so fast and change all the time, you really think presenting a plan to Quebekers and sticking to it until we get a country isn't laughable? I think it would be lying in our faces. Sovereignty is in constant evolution.

And by the way, I said that it doesn't exist, but I don't know at all. I know it have already been done though.

Don't worry, there is plenty of qualified fiscalists and ecomonists in here to do it.

 

[cub1c]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will be decided by Québécois.

I'm not really sure I get your point, but I think we are pretty sure about the way we will prevent things that happened in 1995. With the help of "outsider" and international community, and by strict contribution rules. But something is sure, a fight between Canada (goliath) and Québec (david) will never be fair. As a sovereignist, I assume my disadvantage.

Answer - my point is that your movement was defeated last time because of very influencial people inside Quebec whose loyalties were for sale. No 'strict contribution rules' are going to prevent it. The fact that you're "not really sure I get your point" speaks volumes of a lack of preparedness or awareness of the real obstacles to be faced.

The "not really sure I get you point" is because I'm French and although I master english well, I don't master it 100%. I just didn't understand, linguistically, your point.

I assume that the PQ will do whatever it takes to not have our rights baffled. That said, no, we can't prevent from having federalists with a taste for money in Québec (because the people you are talking about are federalists).

Also, even if it's decided within Québec, how can we regulate how much money the ROC can raise to defend Canada? We are not allowed to tell you what you can do or not. That's the main reason for the mess that happened last time. No matter how well prepared we will be next time, the ROC will be there with whatever money they want. All we can do, is to educate/inform people. It's the only tool available.

 

[PoisonPete2]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will be decided by Québécois.

obstacles to be faced.

I assume that the PQ will do whatever it takes to not have our rights baffled. That said, no, we can't prevent from having federalists with a taste for money in Québec (because the people you are talking about are federalists).

Answer - no, these were not Federalists. These were opportunists with influence. To be coy, those in power wish to remain in power, and prefer the status quo over change. Somebody with a Sovereignist leaning should do a study of voter patterns including turn-out and spoils.

. All we can do, is to educate/inform people. It's the only tool available.

Answer - not by a longshot. You have a wealth of talent, a depth of culture, a rich heritage, a progressive social consciousness. These are the tools of nationbuilding, but they must be coordinated. There must be a leader with a vision (perhaps the new one, he seems viable). There must be clear economic planning way before the door knocking. This movement began in earnest some 50 years ago. The agenda should be very clear by now. The answers should be there before the questions are thought up. But it never gets much beyond mental masterbation. Mostly because the public image is a willingness to sell yourself short for favour. Sorry I have to go. Good luck.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will be decided by Québécois.

obstacles to be faced.

I assume that the PQ will do whatever it takes to not have our rights baffled. That said, no, we can't prevent from having federalists with a taste for money in Québec (because the people you are talking about are federalists).

Answer - no, these were not Federalists. These were opportunists with influence. To be coy, those in power wish to remain in power, and prefer the status quo over change. Somebody with a Sovereignist leaning should do a study of voter patterns including turn-out and spoils.

. All we can do, is to educate/inform people. It's the only tool available.

Answer - not by a longshot. You have a wealth of talent, a depth of culture, a rich heritage, a progressive social consciousness. These are the tools of nationbuilding, but they must be coordinated. There must be a leader with a vision (perhaps the new one, he seems viable). There must be clear economic planning way before the door knocking. This movement began in earnest some 50 years ago. The agenda should be very clear by now. The answers should be there before the questions are thought up. But it never gets much beyond mental masterbation. Mostly because the public image is a willingness to sell yourself short for favour. Sorry I have to go. Good luck.

excellent post! Pete. :thumbleft:

 

[Said1]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will be decided by Québécois.

[
I don't think those kind of things are availaible right now, because we are still a couple of years from year 1 of our country. Be patient, it will come.

I find that almost laughable considering economic policy is centeral to a county's survival. That and the fact that this "issue" is so old, the PQ et al have had decades to come up with a sellable plan.

In a time where everytime goes so fast and change all the time, you really think presenting a plan to Quebekers and sticking to it until we get a country isn't laughable? I think it would be lying in our faces. Sovereignty is in constant evolution.

And by the way, I said that it doesn't exist, but I don't know at all. I know it have already been done though.

Don't worry, there is plenty of qualified fiscalists and ecomonists in here to do it.

Why would you argue the benefits of sovereignty, if you don't know what direction (this does not include minute detail, just a rough idea) the direction your leaders are planning to go economically? Suggesting that they offer some type of plan is not unreasonable, and btw, quite naive on your part to accept sovereignty without researching it a bit. Quebec wants to go it alone, on an international scale, without representation from Canada, aren't you the least bit curious as to how this is going to be played out? Would you prefer sovereignty-association?

 

[Said1]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will be decided by Québécois.

obstacles to be faced.

I assume that the PQ will do whatever it takes to not have our rights baffled. That said, no, we can't prevent from having federalists with a taste for money in Québec (because the people you are talking about are federalists).

Answer - no, these were not Federalists. These were opportunists with influence. To be coy, those in power wish to remain in power, and prefer the status quo over change. Somebody with a Sovereignist leaning should do a study of voter patterns including turn-out and spoils.

. All we can do, is to educate/inform people. It's the only tool available.

Answer - not by a longshot. You have a wealth of talent, a depth of culture, a rich heritage, a progressive social consciousness. These are the tools of nationbuilding, but they must be coordinated. There must be a leader with a vision (perhaps the new one, he seems viable). There must be clear economic planning way before the door knocking. This movement began in earnest some 50 years ago. The agenda should be very clear by now. The answers should be there before the questions are thought up. But it never gets much beyond mental masterbation. Mostly because the public image is a willingness to sell yourself short for favour. Sorry I have to go. Good luck.

Oops. Didn't see this before I posted.


Excellent!

 

[cub1c]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will be decided by Québécois.

Thank you for you post PoisonPete. I agree with you on many points.

I know the sovereignty cause is deeper than most people think. The problem is that the main speaker for the cause is the PQ. And the PQ is a party of coalitions. Yes they all want sovereignty, but some are a little more center than left, some more at the right, some deeply in the left. And there is plenty of things to talk about than sovereignty right now. But I understand that the federalists has everything to gain from a referendum election. Anyway.

I agree with you about coordination, and I really think Andre Boiclair will be the one that can make bridges and break down walls.
Thanks for your input.

 

[Said1]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will be decided by Québécois.

Thank you for you post PoisonPete. I agree with you on many points.

I know the sovereignty cause is deeper than most people think. The problem is that the main speaker for the cause is the PQ. And the PQ is a party of coalitions. Yes they all want sovereignty, but some are a little more center than left, some more at the right, some deeply in the left. And there is plenty of things to talk about than sovereignty right now. But I understand that the federalists has everything to gain from a referendum election. Anyway.

I agree with you about coordination, and I really think Andre Boiclair will be the one that can make bridges and break down walls.
Thanks for your input.

Remind me again, Boiclair is the Unity guy?

 

[cub1c]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will be decided by Québécois.

Why would you argue the benefits of sovereignty, if you don't know what direction (this does not include minute detail, just a rough idea) the direction your leaders are planning to go economically? Suggesting that they offer some type of plan is not unreasonable, and btw, quite naive on your part to accept sovereignty without researching it a bit. Quebec wants to go it alone, on an international scale, without representation from Canada, aren't you the least bit curious as to how this is going to be played out? Would you prefer sovereignty-association?

I think the idea of sovereignty-association is way beyond us.
I think I know more about the goals of sovereignty than you will ever do in your life. I think about it everyday, like tons of Québécois.

I just can't explain all of it content to you. There is so much reasons. Everybody is allowed to have it's own. If you only think about money and economics, you will have to find someone else.

 

[cub1c]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will be decided by Québécois.

Remind me again, Boiclair is the Unity guy?

Unity?

 

[Said1]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will be decided by Québécois.

Why would you argue the benefits of sovereignty, if you don't know what direction (this does not include minute detail, just a rough idea) the direction your leaders are planning to go economically? Suggesting that they offer some type of plan is not unreasonable, and btw, quite naive on your part to accept sovereignty without researching it a bit. Quebec wants to go it alone, on an international scale, without representation from Canada, aren't you the least bit curious as to how this is going to be played out? Would you prefer sovereignty-association?

I think the idea of sovereignty-association is way beyond us.
I think I know more about the goals of sovereignty than you will ever do in your life. I think about it everyday, like tons of Québécois.

I just can't explain all of it content to you. There is so much reasons. Everybody is allowed to have it's own. If you only think about money and economics, you will have to find someone else.

Quite frankly, your knowledge has not impressed me, or even shown me that you know anything. You may also be surprised how much your neighbours here in Ottawa know about you, since many of you come here, collect your paychecks, then return to your home and native province, only to pine about an independent Quebec.

And furthermore, contrary to what you are "entitled" to "think", economics is important - for so many reasons, that go beyond independence, language and to quote you "blah, blah, blah". Wasn't it you, in this very thread complaining about taxes and transfer payments? *sniff*

 

[cub1c]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will be decided by Québécois.

Quite frankly, your knowledge has not impressed me, or even shown me that you know anything. You may also be surprised how much your neighbours here in Ottawa know about you, since many of you come here, collect your paychecks, then return to your home and native province, only to pine about an independent Quebec.

Someone who takes marginality, trying to turn it into generalization and making a points out of it doesn't impress me at all neither.

And furthermore, contrary to what you are "entitled" to "think", economics is important - for so many reasons, that go beyond independence, language and to quote you "blah, blah, blah". Wasn't it you, in this very thread complaining about taxes and transfer payments?

I didn't try to impress anybody. I never said blablabla, and I don't remember complaining about taxes and transfert payment. I started this thread to with the point in mind to tell Canadians that the future of Québec will be decided by Québécois.

And I don't fall into your tactis of taking someones opinion, turning it around, and make it their opinion. I never said economics where not important. I just don't have time to educate you on Québec economics and, if you are as educated as you say, I don't need to.

 

[pastafarian]

cub1c, what do you expect to improve in a sovereign Quebec?
Or, put another way, what are sépératistes dissatisified with in the current provincial/federal arrangement?

 

[s_lone]

cub1c, what do you expect to improve in a sovereign Quebec?
Or, put another way, what are sépératistes dissatisified with in the current provincial/federal arrangement?

Speaking for myself,

1. Will finally have a country I can truly call my own. Presently, Quebec is not signed on the Canadian constitution.

2. More regional power. I am not fundamentally against globalisation but I think it needs a strong resistance everywhere.

3. If it is true that Quebec gets tons of money from the rest of Canada than this should NOT be the case. Federalists have this argument that we will go bankrupt if we leave. To me it's just like a possessive mother saying to her kids they won't make it if they leave on their own.We should be able to rely on ourselves, which doesn't mean we have to isolate ourselves. All countries are INTER-dependant from each other.

Anyhow, I don't know too much about money issues but the fiscal imbalance between the federal and provincial levels seem pretty obvious.

If federalism is to work, Quebecers want to feel like they are contributing to it, not constantly begging it!

4. CHANGE! EXCITEMENT! CHALLENGE! COURAGE! I'm tired of all the wimpiness.

5. Culturally, we are already a country.

 

[Said1]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will be decided by Québécois.

[

Someone who takes marginality, trying to turn it into generalization and making a points out of it doesn't impress me at all neither.

I'm not trying to impress you. In fact, I feel sorry for those who work here and live in the Hull area when thinking about a yes vote, what would that mean for them? They stil have to eat don't they? That is my point in continually bringing up economics, will Quebec have the resources to support all these people until they find workd elsewhere? Will they be allowed to keep their jobs regardless of how things turn out?

I didn't try to impress anybody. I never said blablabla, and I don't remember complaining about taxes and transfert payment. I started this thread to with the point in mind to tell Canadians that the future of Québec will be decided by Québécois.

Sorry, I could swear I saw you say "blah, blah", perhaps I read that elsewhere. As for taxes, you did make a comment pertaining to that, first page I believe.

And I don't fall into your tactis of taking someones opinion, turning it around, and make it their opinion. I never said economics where not important. I just don't have time to educate you on Québec economics and, if you are as educated as you say, I don't need to.

With the exception of mistakenly misquoting you, I'm not using any tactics. And you can't edcuate me on anything you admittedly know nothing about, c'est correct? Sorry you can't handle a few simple questions that go beyond identity.

Now, on to the "purpose" of your thread. I have no problem with Quebec deciding their future on their own. Go for it, knock yourself out. But, I'm always amazed at how little emphasis is placed on the immideate economic consequences of separation within discussions. There is more to a country's survival than what it takes to achieve nation-state status.

And lastly, make no mistake, I know how deeply soveriegty runs. That you can be sure about.

 

[Booh]

Remind me again, Boiclair is the Unity guy?

Boisclair (there's an s after the first i) is the coked leader of the Parti Québécois. You might have heard of him as the homosexual leader of the PQ rather than as the coked bastard that he is though.

Let's talk about the PQ for a minute. I don't understand how they [the "sovereignists"] think the PQ can lead them to independance when they aren't even capable of decently handling a province.

Let's take their last two mandates as an example. Amonst other things (I wasn't really following politics back then so I know I missed a lot of their fiascos and scandals), hundreds of millions wasted in the Gaspesia scandal. It was barely talked about, the media being pro-PQ and all; billions lost in the "Caisse de dépôt et de placement" (or was it the SGF? I'm fairly certain it's the former). Again, barely talked about in the media; forced fusions of cities. They knew people didn't want that, it was very clear, but they forced us into it anyway (and their new leader, in his speech at my college, dared say that this was a very democratic process. He went as far as saying that they improved democracy :roll: ).

The PQ has a long history of waste and mismanagement, not to mention their constant lying (the party's founder is an ex-liberal after all). If we were to believe them, post-referendum (victorious referendum obviously) Quebec would be paradise on Earth.

According to one of the PQ's brilliant lol fiscalists, François Legault, independance would be completely smooth, there would be no instability at all (they have no post-independance plan but who needs those anyway?), Quebec would make billions in surplus, etc.

Or, put another way, what are sépératistes dissatisified with in the current provincial/federal arrangement?

Many are simply tired of the federal making it's way more and more into provincial jurisdiction. To be honest, I understand them. The federal government should keep its nose in its own affairs.

5. Culturally, we are already a country.

Culturally, we are Americans.

 

[Colpy]

]

A Unilateral Declaration of Independence will result in civil war.

That means you get a bayonet in the arse.

I was about to awnser you with intelligent points but since you can't do that I won't respond.

I would like this thread to not contain any Chrétien's rhetoric and be as polite as it can. If you can't do that, please don't post. I didn't came here to get flamed or to waste my time with people that can't think reasonably.

Thanks.

The people that can't think reasonably are the ones that ignore the elephant in the room.

So, let's play the game.

What if:
Quebec votes 53% in favour of separation on thev same question used in 1995.
The government of Canada refuses to negiotiate the separation on that question, with that tiny a majority. Legally, Canada could not even negotiate on this basis.
Quebec announces its Unilateral Declaration of Independence.
So far, not an unrealistic senario, wouldn't you agree?
Now the trouble starts. Canada would not recognize the UDI, legally it could not.
Canada has, in Quebec, a number of assets of a military nature. Armouries, military bases, etc. What does Quebec do? Does it try to seize them, as they are "foreign" bases and troops on their soil?
Not immediately, one would think, but Quebec would have to begin raising military forces of their own to eventually deal with the problem, and that would force Canada's hand, as no nation could tolerate a rebel army on its turf.

Civil War.

Let's even take the gentler approach.
The situation set out above does not lead to conflict, because both Canada and Quebec are trying desperately to avoid it, so Canada keeps its troops on base, and Quebec refrains from raising any obvious military force.

However, Canada is now cut in half. Does Quebec allow Canadian transportation of goods and people through its territory with no controls?

Canada has tools of executive power in Quebec. RCMP, customs people, etc. etc. They would continue to operate in defance of Quebec's UDI.

Quebec, as a country, can not exist without exercising sovereignty over its own territory. That is the definition of a country.

Canada will continue to exercise sovereignty over its own territory. The two are mutually exclusive.

Each will try to exercise its sovereignty over the same piece of turf with all their various police assets. When the police are not capable of handling the conflict, military assets will be used.

Bingo.

Civil War.

In short, that means you get a bayonet in the arse.

Pretending the elephant ain't there is a very dangerous game

 

[cub1c]

RE: Québec's destiny will

And you can't edcuate me on anything you admittedly know nothing about, c'est correct? Sorry you can't handle a few simple questions that go beyond identity.

Again. Never said I know nothing about. I just don't feel to get into this right now, and probably not with someone like you. Now if you excuse me, create a new thread with quebec's economics as a title and if I feel like it I will awnser it. And I don't think you know much about sovereignty, espacially coming from somewhere where they almost never talk about seperation except to say that it will break the country.

You expressed your opinion about the thread subject. Thank you.

Next.

 

[Said1]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will

And you can't edcuate me on anything you admittedly know nothing about, c'est correct? Sorry you can't handle a few simple questions that go beyond identity.

Again. Never said I know nothing about. I just don't feel to get into this right now, and probably not with someone like you. Now if you excuse me, create a new thread with quebec's economics as a title and if I feel like it I will awnser it. And I don't think you know much about sovereignty, espacially coming from somewhere where they almost never talk about seperation except to say that it will break the country.

You expressed your opinion about the thread subject. Thank you.

Next.

Well, I could tell you to shut up too, since your opinion was expressed in your first post, was it not? I mean, anything that goes above and beyond what you originally said is "off-topic". isn't it?

And speaking of generalizations. Le Pot, meet Le Kettle. People like me, I could say a lot about people like YOU, but will refrain.

Dismissed.

 

[cub1c]

RE: Québec's destiny will

Colpy.

So you agree that you fantasy civil war would be a result of Canada stupid position of not being able to negotiate pacifically, in good faith, as a grown up man, with it's new ally?