Quebec shouldn't separate from Canada

[cub1c]

...another question I have is what would happen to those, both francophones, and anglophones, that do not want to separate from Canada. Would a sovereign republic of Quebec deport them, or force them into linguistic compliance?

Many of the people that do not want to separate have businesses, and homes there. Would the Quebec government, relocate and compensate the federalists?

Force, relocate, compensate? Sorry but those words never came into my mind. There is no plan in changing radicaly language laws. We don't see what's radical at all the idea of French being the only official language. All public services are bi-langual and will always be.

We are happy with 40/60 ratio right now, and we need to take care of our faith to make it stay that way.

People quiting Québec is an old myth.

 

[cub1c]

what I'm feeling so far is that all separtists want to do is abolish english as a language in your province, and force the anglophones out...and that pisses me off

This is really scary. If the majority of the Canada think this way, it means that the feds had win.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

There is no plan in changing radicaly language laws. We don't see what's radical at all the idea of French being the only official language. All public services are bi-langual and will always be.

...and what legal provisions are there to ensure that the rights of the anglophones to speak english will be protected in a sovereign Quebec?

...in attempting to preserve the francophone cultural identity, by making french the only official language, you are doing exactly what the British did in restricting the french language before confederacy...

...and I don't see how my questioning the motives of the separtist movement is allowing anyone to win anything...

 

[cub1c]

..in attempting to preserve the francophone cultural identity, by making french the only official language, you are doing exactly what the British did in restricting the french language before confederacy...

Sorry but you shouldn't take British action that happened long time ago in a totaly different context from today's, it's just wrong. Where did you get the idea that Québécois are so aggressive??

The way we'll reach our independance is by a legitimate referendum, within Québec, where every votes count for one (note here that I'm talking about the 50% + 1 rule, which mathematically proves that a vote for No has more impact than a vote for a Yes) , and where the majority of it's people decided that they were able to take their place in the world as a Country.

This is democracy. And I accept comments from anybody that can say that it is not.

...and I don't see how my questioning the motives of the separtist movement is allowing anyone to win anything...

You're questionning is highly legitimate, and I appreciate you are looking for awnsers.

 

[cub1c]

...and what legal provisions are there to ensure that the rights of the anglophones to speak english will be protected in a sovereign Quebec?

Do we live in the same world?
In a sovereign Québec, speaking english as a second language will be highly, as it is now, promoted so that Québec can still strongly compete on a International level. That said, I hardly think that a sovereign Québec would be of any threat at the English language. Come on. And it's just not the goal.

A sovereign Québec will, as it is now, always pay full respect to minorities on his territory.

 

[cub1c]

RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa

There is another problem as why English Canada doesn't have a clue about the separatist movement.

Independance will be acquired by a vote within our province. As a result, BQ and PQ are concentrating their force into planning the new country and coinvincing their people that Québec is ready to be independant. They have absolutly no plans, and it's not their mission, to coinvince the rest of the Canada that separation is a good choice. You have to understand that!

Secondly, where is you're source of informations about benefits of a sovereign Québec?

It's not only that you don't have any, but it's completly inversed! You have informations from a federalism opinion!

Don't deny it.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Re: RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa

Secondly, where is you're source of informations about benefits of a sovereign Québec?

It's not only that you don't have any, but it's completly inversed! You have informations from a federalism opinion!

Actually, the two links I posted were both from sites giving a separtist perspective...but I was not able to read into the reasons why Quebec can't play nice with the rest of Canada...

All I could see from either of those sites, is that Quebec feels that their cultural identity is threatened by federalism...

...in fact it looks to me like the whole separtist movement is founded upon fear, and borders on paranoia...but that's me reading it from an anglophone perspective, because the sites I posted don't give much insight into why the fracophones feel this way...

 

[cub1c]

Re: RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa

Actually, the two links I posted were both from sites giving a separtist perspective...but I was not able to read into the reasons why Quebec can't play nice with the rest of Canada...

First of all, the too sites are great but for sure can't explain our emotions. Secondly, those sites aren't maintstream and if you tell me that for an English Canadian, the only way of informing themselves about Québec separatist movement, is through this site, then I can understand your position about sovereignty.

All I could see from either of those sites, is that Quebec feels that their cultural identity is threatened by federalism...

Not directly threatened by federalism. In a context of globalization and culture recognition as of today (that we knew, that this was going to happen, 30 years ago), we are threatened by not being a country! We have the right to put our culture on the same level internationaly like France, United States, Canada, Germany, Sweden and so on....in order to really survive culture mixing.

A best example is when a I talk with someone from say US or even Europe or whatever part of the world. When I say "I speak French", they automatically make the assumption that I'm from France.
Just the though of it is burning my eyes. Seriously.

We know the rest of the Canada knows French Canadians exist, but it's not the case for the rest of the world! For sure there is a feeling of not being well threated by the rest of the Canada, but the feeling that we are not recognized by the rest of the world is millions times overwhelming!

...in fact it looks to me like the whole separtist movement is
founded upon fear, and borders on paranoia...

For sure, some separatists may evoke fear as the main reason, but it's really marginal.

I think paranoia is more on you side, as you seem to see in a sovereign Québec: the collapse of Canada's economy and the beginning of concentration camp for English people of Québec.

Even if it was true that the separatist movement is based on paranoia, in a context that English is DOMINATING more and more the world (not to metion US domination), would the paranoia be legitimate?

 

[EternalSunshine]

The biggest problem, in my opinion, that separatists face is that they never made the least effort to make anyone else (but les quebecois pure laine) feel like they're real Quebecois. On the contrary.

That's why there will never be enough support for separation. Like it or not, "ethnic votes" will be counted too.

 

[s_lone]

RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa

Eternal sunshine: You raise a good and interesting issue.
Here's a little story for those who don't know it:
In 1995, after the referendum's results gave victory to the NO side, Jacques Parizeau (prime minister at the time), in his defeat speech, said that the seperatists only lost because of money and ethnic votes. He said this live on television in front of all Quebecers and many Canadians watching! He should have never said these words and he certainly didn't help his cause. They had a devastating effect and the federalists still use it as a weapon against seperatists today. During the last provincial election campaign, Parizeau (who quit politics in 1995...), did some "controversial" speeches in favour of independance, saying that Quebec had changed and was ready for a new referendum. The provincial Liberals used this as a weapon against the PQ and it worked. Bernard Landry (present leader of the PQ) was forced to answer to journalists who wanted to know if he agreed with Parizeau's statements on "ethnic votes" or not. Of course, he said that he didn't... But even if he did, it would have been suicidal to say it...
All this is a very delicate issue. Many are starting to realize that Parizeau WAS right in saying that we lost because of money and ethnic votes. The money issue refers to the fact that the NO side had 10 times the budget than the YES side in 1995 (Of course, the NO money came from the federal government). As for the "ethnic votes", Parizeau's crime was to say it in an accusing way; as if "ethnic voters" were guilty of stopping Quebec independance. It IS true that a majority of "ethnic voters" voted NO, but Parizeau had no right to accuse them. Democracy was respected and the NO won fair and square. But it must be known that the NO side, with their bigger budget (10 times bigger...), concentrated most of their efforts on "ethnic voters", knowing very well that they would make the difference, knowing very well that they couldn't change the mind of most "pure laine" Quebecers (descendants of French ancestors who came to New France in the 17th and 18th century. )

Quebec HAS changed since 1995. The younger generations who didn't vote in 95 are mostly in favour of sovereignty. We often hear today the expression : Les enfants de la loi 101 (children of Bill 101). Those who went to school in French usually understand the seperatist cause and connect to it, whatever their ethnic origins are.

People in Quebec are starting to understand that a country of Quebec would not be build by and for "pure laine" Quebecers. We would all be in this together and would build a country together. Quebec is becoming more and more multicultural and WANTS to become more multicultural. Any citizen of Quebec is as much a Quebecer as any other and will have his say in the shaping of a future/possible country.

So to summarize my thought, I believe "ethnic votes" being counted won't be a problem at all for seperatists.

 

[no1important]

RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa

In other parts of the world you seperatists would either be hung or shot for treason.

Quebec will increase taxes 50 fold once they seperate, your medical will go through the roof, you have nothing to export, your currencey would be worthless on the international stage, mass poverty will be the norm, job losses as the Feds and other Canadian companies would leave,no money to build your own infrastructure (army, etc)

Canada is not going to support you like we do now once you leave or if you leave. Your cash cow will be over.

You seperatists have nothing to gain and everything to lose by seperating from Canada.

I think you guys should thank your lucky stars Canada is a free and civilized country that lets you even contemplate seperating. If you were an American state would America let you get away with your treason-ist acts? or China? or anywhere else?

It is time to quit acting like the spoiled child of Confederation and start becoming a part of Canada. Each Province is special and has its own story, and if you Quebecer's want to leave, I say leave for greener pastures(there is a quite a few countries that speak french), nothing is stopping you, but the land stays in Canada.

 

[cub1c]

Re: RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa

In other parts of the world you seperatists would either be hung or shot for treason.

Quebec will increase taxes 50 fold once they seperate, your medical will go through the roof, you have nothing to export, your currencey would be worthless on the international stage, mass poverty will be the norm, no money to build your own infrastructure (army, etc)

Canada is not going to support you like we do now once you leave or if you leave. Your cash cow will be over.

You seperatists have nothing to gain and everything to lose by seperating from Canada.

I think you guys should thank your lucky stars Canada is a free and civilized country that lets you even contemplate seperating. If you were an American state would America let you get away with your treason-ist acts? or China? or anywhere else?

It is time to quit acting like the spoiled child of Confederation and start becoming a part of Canada. Each Province is special and has its own story, and if you Quebecer's want to leave, I say leave for greener pastures(there is a quite a few countries that speak french), nothing is stopping you, but the land stays in Canada.

That smells flamebait, and I don't feel like flaming. But you are a "/($&* ignorant.

What a federalism extremist! This is what quebecers are afraid of.

I really beg any canadian that knows this idea is not widespread and generalized through Canada to speak out and tell me.

Because if there ain't, I think the seperation of Québec is more than justified.

 

[jackd]

No1Important: Poor you.

Quebec will increase taxes 50 fold once they separate, your medical will go through the roof

And why would this happen? Any support to this claim or is it straight out of the left side of your brain?

,

you have nothing to export

For your information and education, Quebec exports more than it imports. Ever hear of a positive trade balance???

your currency would be worthless on the international stage, mass poverty will be the norm, job losses as the Feds and other Canadian companies would leave,no money to build your own infrastructure

Yes, the sky is falling. But you forgot that the ROC would have major advantages for its own sake to support its currency by sharing it with Quebec. Canada could never accept to loose 22% of its GDP and 23% of its revenues it gets from from Québec without wanting (needing) to share the CAN$$$ with Quebec.
And don't forget Québec send $44Billions to Ottawa in 2005 to received back $18Billions in equalization and program transfers.

Obviously, your post is more of a "don't leave Québec, please" cry than an informed or logical argument.

 

[no1important]

RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa

I am not trying to flame. I am also not ignorant. Quebec will not be able to function as well as they do now. It would be a second rate country compared to Canada.

The rest of Canada is tired of Quebecs threats all the time. Nobody is forcing you to stay in Canada. If you do not like Canada leave.I am tired of hearing about Quebec bitching. Its gone on my whole life. There are many French Speaking countries in the world you could move to if you do not want to live here.

Maybe if you seperatists would put your effort and energy into making a better Canada, you would not have the problems you have now. Real or imaginary. Were not your enemies as you seperatist always try to make out.

Every region in Canada is special in its own way.

You seperatists are "nuts" to believe Quebec will prosper if you leave Canada, you won't, your cozy life and standard of living will decline if you leave.

You will not have an association with Canada, The money Canadian companies and the Feds put in will dry up. If you seperate all ties to Canada except for some minor trade will be cut off, completly. You should get out of your dream world. It will not be as easy to form and start up your own country as you guys think. And don't come crying back to re join Canada either when you fail. You will have to live in the bed you make.

What are your exports? Stolen Hydroelectricity from NFLD?

 

[s_lone]

It seems to me that if Quebec was to seperate, Quebecers and Canadians would be a model for the whole world to follow on how a political conflict can be negotiated peacefully, without bloodshed. Yes, Canada is a free and civilised country, but that's not a reason why we shouldn't be allowed to have our own civilised country. And it's not like Quebec doesn't want Canada to work. If Canada was really ready to reconsider the principles of our federation, Quebec would sit down and listen very closely. But up to now, these attempts have failed (Meech accord...). If Canada doesn't give more independance to the provinces, Quebecers will get fed up and eventually seperate.

 

[cub1c]

Re: RE: Quebec shouldn't separate from Canada

It seems to me that if Quebec was to seperate, Quebecers and Canadians would be a model for the whole world to follow on how a political conflict can be negotiated peacefully, without bloodshed.

Exactly! How can, a civilized and great country like Canada doing EVERYTHING THEY CAN to not let a province the right to decide of it's own future, be an example to the world???

 

[cub1c]

Re: RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa

Nobody is forcing you to stay in Canada.

Erm. Are you living on the same planet as me?

As for the rest of your insanities, sorry but I stopped reading after that one.

 

[no1important]

RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa

Erm. Are you living on the same planet as me?

Yes I am.

Whats wrong with that comment? If you do not like living in Canada move somewhere else. It does not get any simpler than that.

You guys are sorley mistaken if you think Quebec will be some sort of Utopia if Quebec left Canada. After the joy of succussfully seperating, the let down will begin and reality will hit and many of the "Traitors" (and thats what seperatists are) will regret ever voting yes to leave Canada.

As for the rest of your insanities, sorry but I stopped reading after that one.

What insanities? You still never answer my questions but you keep calling me insane.

Like what are your exports? You won't have the Feds propping up Bombardier or other Quebec companies. The Feds will leave as will many other Canadian companies in that province. No more free money from transfer payments. So there goes a huge chunk of the provincial tax base.

You can not keep your economy or standard of living where it is now if you people were to ever seperate. You won't have the Tax base etc.Thats the reality. It will be tough times for Quebec.

Maybe you should think about it a little more seriously before trying to seperate, or calling me insane or ignorant.

 

[cub1c]

If you do not like living in Canada move somewhere else.

Looks more like racist propaganda than anything else. Will reminding you that, when Canada was founded, it was 100% French, hurt?

You won't have the Feds propping up Bombardier or other Quebec companies.

I must remember you that Ontario already took away our automobile industry and we are not yet seperated!

The Feds will leave as will many other Canadian companies in that province. No more free money from transfer payments. So there goes a huge chunk of the provincial tax base.

You can not keep your economy or standard of living where it is now if you people were to ever seperate. You won't have the Tax base etc.Thats the reality. It will be tough times for Quebec.

You seem to have special connection with the future. Is it a time machine? No wait! You hear voices in your head telling you all that?

Ah you almost got me, I know, you have high connections in Québec business pool. You got CEO numbers on you're cell phone. I'm sure they leaked this to you, those bastards!

Seriously, do you think business are in Québec because there is no money to make? Come on. By definition, why a business that is already making money in a market would possibly removing himself from it.

Your "the 8-ball told me!" technique doesn't work with me.

As for your question about exportation. The Québécois company where I work recenlty bought their 5th company in 15 years, and this company is located in Toronto, the first outside Québec. Big exportation. So I'm personnaly safe, and proud too.

Remember, Québec export more than what it import.

 

[no1important]

RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa

If you want to do trade with other countries Quebec will have to set up trade offices, consulates and embassies in other countries. That all costs money.

You still have not told me what Quebec can export or trade. You just answer by calling me names and saying generalizations like:

As for your question about exportation. The Québécois company where I work recenlty bought their 5th company in 15 years, and this company is located in Toronto, the first outside Québec. Big exportation. So I'm personnaly safe, and proud too. "

whoopee dooo. That does not answer anything.

Have you thought that a lot of business will/may leave Quebec when and if you guys ever seperate?

Quebec will have no option to jack up taxes big time for infrastructure and to make up for lost money due to a lower tax base from companies leaving, people losing their jobs from companies leaving and the feds pulling out, no more transfer payments etc. You will be on your own for money with no Canada to fall back on for any money. The Quebec dollar will be worth maybe half as much as Canada's if you are lucky.

Well to me, you guys have no plan or economic plan after you leave. Your in such a rush to leave you don't have anything planned out for when you leave. Its just "lets leave Canada asap and worry about the fallout later".

How are you going to deal with the First Nation issue?

If you do have a plan, please tell me, What is Quebecs economic plan is after seperation? It is a very simple question.

And for the third time answer this: What is Quebec's exports?

You state Quebec exports more than it imports. If that was the case why are you a "have not" province?

You guys live in an imaginary world that Utopia will come the minute you leave Canada but in your rush to try and leave you have not made any plans for the future, have you? You just want out of Canada asap.

Don't forget you will have to pay your share of the National Debt if you ever leave.

One could assume since there is no plan after seperation, the seperation talk is just a threat to get more special treatment from Ottawa and cash of course.