Piss Christ vs. Cartoon Jihad

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
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I am shocked that people are so eager to put limitations on speech.

Why don't we just get some of the old Taliban guys to come and let us know what we can't say so that we avoid offending muslim fanatics?
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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Hoo boy !!

Whoah.

I said whoa, boy.

I said I said.

Ah means to tell yew, that you are going waaaaay
too fast for this old hen.

Ah do declare that I do not understand how
you interpreted mah post to mean what you
thought.

Ah was only protecting the virtue of hizzoner the
Cartoon.

And its right to be that icon smasher, all religions so
proclaim.

That's all.

Folks.

I means to not be too flippant in regards to this most
serious matter, but I most fervently agree with
your sentiment.

I do wish to know how you saw any otherwise.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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You seemed to try and add a flare of understanding as to why they may have done what they did. It's inexcusable. Period.

Provoking them in my book would have been publishing it (maybe) in their countries. What the Danes do in their own country is their own business. They can be burning American flags all day long for all I care, you won't see anyone running to the Danish embassy torching the place. They even burned the Austrian embassy because they have the EU Presidency for f*cks sake!

And I am VERY pissed the UK and US didn't follow suit and publish them, albeit I can understand the reasons why they didn't. :evil:
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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I think not said:
You seemed to try and add a flare of understanding as to why they may have done what they did. It's inexcusable. Period.

Provoking them in my book would have been publishing it (maybe) in their countries. What the Danes do in their own country is their own business. They can be burning American flags all day long for all I care, you won't see anyone running to the Danish embassy torching the place. They even burned the Austrian embassy because they have the EU Presidency for f*cks sake!

And I am VERY pissed the UK and US didn't follow suit and publish them, albeit I can understand the reasons why they didn't. :evil:

That is about the way I feel about it, except for burning the flags. What message are they sending when they burn the flag. I'll bet they are not conveying that they don't want anymore of our foreign aid or the handouts these countries seem to live on.
 

Colpy

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Re: RE: Piss Christ vs. Cartoon Jihad

tracy said:
I am shocked that people are so eager to put limitations on speech.

Why don't we just get some of the old Taliban guys to come and let us know what we can't say so that we avoid offending muslim fanatics?

DEAD ON Tracy.

well said.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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Christopher Hitchens has his say on the issue.....

http://www.slate.com/id/2135499/nav/tap2/

Cartoon Debate
The case for mocking religion.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Saturday, Feb. 4, 2006, at 4:31 PM ET

As well as being a small masterpiece of inarticulacy and self-abnegation, the statement from the State Department about this week's international Muslim pogrom against the free press was also accidentally accurate.

"Anti-Muslim images are as unacceptable as anti-Semitic images, as anti-Christian images, or any other religious belief."

Thus the hapless Sean McCormack, reading painfully slowly from what was reported as a prepared government statement. How appalling for the country of the First Amendment to be represented by such an administration. What does he mean "unacceptable"? That it should be forbidden? And how abysmal that a "spokesman" cannot distinguish between criticism of a belief system and slander against a people. However, the illiterate McCormack is right in unintentionally comparing racist libels to religious faith. Many people have pointed out that the Arab and Muslim press is replete with anti-Jewish caricature, often of the most lurid and hateful kind. In one way the comparison is hopelessly inexact. These foul items mostly appear in countries where the state decides what is published or broadcast. However, when Muslims republish the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or perpetuate the story of Jewish blood-sacrifice at Passover, they are recycling the fantasies of the Russian Orthodox Christian secret police (in the first instance) and of centuries of Roman Catholic and Lutheran propaganda (in the second). And, when an Israeli politician refers to Palestinians as snakes or pigs or monkeys, it is near to a certainty that he will be a rabbi (most usually Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the leader of the disgraceful Shas party) and will cite Talmudic authority for his racism. For most of human history, religion and bigotry have been two sides of the same coin, and it still shows.

Therefore there is a strong case for saying that the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten, and those who have reprinted its efforts out of solidarity, are affirming the right to criticize not merely Islam but religion in general. And the Bush administration has no business at all expressing an opinion on that. If it is to say anything, it is constitutionally obliged to uphold the right and no more. You can be sure that the relevant European newspapers have also printed their share of cartoons making fun of nuns and popes and messianic Israeli settlers, and taunting child-raping priests. There was a time when this would not have been possible. But those taboos have been broken.

Which is what taboos are for. Islam makes very large claims for itself. In its art, there is a prejudice against representing the human form at all. The prohibition on picturing the prophet—who was only another male mammal—is apparently absolute. So is the prohibition on pork or alcohol or, in some Muslim societies, music or dancing. Very well then, let a good Muslim abstain rigorously from all these. But if he claims the right to make me abstain as well, he offers the clearest possible warning and proof of an aggressive intent. This current uneasy coexistence is only an interlude, he seems to say. For the moment, all I can do is claim to possess absolute truth and demand absolute immunity from criticism. But in the future, you will do what I say and you will do it on pain of death.

I refuse to be spoken to in that tone of voice, which as it happens I chance to find "offensive." ( By the way, hasn't the word "offensive" become really offensive lately?) The innate human revulsion against desecration is much older than any monotheism: Its most powerful expression is in the Antigone of Sophocles. It belongs to civilization. I am not asking for the right to slaughter a pig in a synagogue or mosque or to relieve myself on a "holy" book. But I will not be told I can't eat pork, and I will not respect those who burn books on a regular basis. I, too, have strong convictions and beliefs and value the Enlightenment above any priesthood or any sacred fetish-object. It is revolting to me to breathe the same air as wafts from the exhalations of the madrasahs, or the reeking fumes of the suicide-murderers, or the sermons of Billy Graham and Joseph Ratzinger. But these same principles of mine also prevent me from wreaking random violence on the nearest church, or kidnapping a Muslim at random and holding him hostage, or violating diplomatic immunity by attacking the embassy or the envoys of even the most despotic Islamic state, or making a moronic spectacle of myself threatening blood and fire to faraway individuals who may have hurt my feelings. The babyish rumor-fueled tantrums that erupt all the time, especially in the Islamic world, show yet again that faith belongs to the spoiled and selfish childhood of our species.

As it happens, the cartoons themselves are not very brilliant, or very mordant, either. But if Muslims do not want their alleged prophet identified with barbaric acts or adolescent fantasies, they should say publicly that random murder for virgins is not in their religion. And here one runs up against a curious reluctance. … In fact, Sunni Muslim leaders can't even seem to condemn the blowing-up of Shiite mosques and funeral processions, which even I would describe as sacrilege. Of course there are many millions of Muslims who do worry about this, and another reason for condemning the idiots at Foggy Bottom is their assumption, dangerous in many ways, that the first lynch mob on the scene is actually the genuine voice of the people. There's an insult to Islam, if you like.

The question of "offensiveness" is easy to decide. First: Suppose that we all agreed to comport ourselves in order to avoid offending the believers? How could we ever be sure that we had taken enough precautions? On Saturday, I appeared on CNN, which was so terrified of reprisal that it "pixilated" the very cartoons that its viewers needed to see. And this ignoble fear in Atlanta, Ga., arose because of an illustration in a small Scandinavian newspaper of which nobody had ever heard before! Is it not clear, then, that those who are determined to be "offended" will discover a provocation somewhere? We cannot possibly adjust enough to please the fanatics, and it is degrading to make the attempt.

Second (and important enough to be insisted upon): Can the discussion be carried on without the threat of violence, or the automatic resort to it? When Salman Rushdie published The Satanic Verses in 1988, he did so in the hope of forwarding a discussion that was already opening in the Muslim world, between extreme Quranic literalists and those who hoped that the text could be interpreted. We know what his own reward was, and we sometimes forget that the fatwa was directed not just against him but against "all those involved in its publication," which led to the murder of the book's Japanese translator and the near-deaths of another translator and one publisher. I went on Crossfire at one point, to debate some spokesman for outraged faith, and said that we on our side would happily debate the propriety of using holy writ for literary and artistic purposes. But that we would not exchange a word until the person on the other side of the podium had put away his gun. (The menacing Muslim bigmouth on the other side refused to forswear state-sponsored suborning of assassination, and was of course backed up by the Catholic bigot Pat Buchanan.) The same point holds for international relations: There can be no negotiation under duress or under the threat of blackmail and assassination. And civil society means that free expression trumps the emotions of anyone to whom free expression might be inconvenient. It is depressing to have to restate these obvious precepts, and it is positively outrageous that the administration should have discarded them at the very first sign of a fight.

It would seem to me religions all have their bigots. Will we end up in yet another religious crusade of violent overthrow, making slaves and servants of the non-believers?

Are we back to the Lions' Den to settle things?
 

I think not

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Apr 12, 2005
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"Anti-Muslim images are as unacceptable as anti-Semitic images, as anti-Christian images, or any other religious belief."

Hey, Mr McCormack

In 1989 the US Supreme Court decision on flag burning applies here also, "f there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the Government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable."

Go back to school f*ckwit. :evil:
 

Triple_R

Electoral Member
Jan 8, 2006
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I can see both sides of the censorship vs. anti-censorship debate. However, on this I am confidant... whatever stance we choose, it has to be universally applied. There should be no double standards, as double standards are inherently unfair, and breed much more resentment than any other stand possible on that matter.

As such, my comment is simply that we should treat anti-Christian pieces of art the same way that we treat anti-Muslim pieces of art. Either we tolerate both, or we tolerate neither.

Now, all of that being said, it's important to distinguish a boycott from a censorship. A boycott is a civil way of protesting against something that you're displeased with. I have no problem with Muslims who have merely chosen to not buy any goods from the Danish any more. However, the response from the Muslims on this matter has been much stronger than that of merely a boycott, and I do find it very heavy-handed. It's also terribly regretable that many of the same people who probably defend anti-Christian art are now taking outrage at anti-Muslim art. This is a stupid counter-productive double standard that we should strongly condemn. Again - either censor anti-Christian AND anti-Muslim art, or censor neither. And if you go with censorship, you have to apply it to anti-Jew, anti-Hindu, anti-this race, anti-that race, anti-this gender, anti-that gender, etc..., etc...
If you don't go with censorship, then you have to allow everything short of yelling fire in a crowded theater.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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TripleR

I concur boycotting is a passive (well partly active) way of protest - also silent protest with signs, getting into the media making the opinion and backlash against the cartoons known.

The cartoons were published months ago. That is what we are all wondering. Is there a significance to this uprising happening at this particular time?

Refusing to comment as if these were a non-issue by the western press (USA - UK) is also another bad approach as if we were all deaf and blind to the current wave of madness.

Silent demonstration, boycott, these are the responsible way of handling perceived offense. The pages of newspapers are littered with caricatures daily of humorous images of leaders and even religious types.... Even beloved Walt Disney had his arabic and jewish favorite "types" until protests were lodged.

A caveat: One does not stamp around spittle spewing they are going to behead and kill for these offenses...... these monstrous perverted people should be answered - to be ignored gives them strength in actually believing we are cowards.

And censorship? We should treat it as the last frontier of a free people. To begin that futile effort of ignorance will be the downfall of any and all nations.
 

Jay

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Jan 7, 2005
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Re: RE: Piss Christ vs. Cartoon Jihad

tracy said:
I am shocked that people are so eager to put limitations on speech.

Why don't we just get some of the old Taliban guys to come and let us know what we can't say so that we avoid offending muslim fanatics?

I think a lot of people who are eager to place limitations on speech, live in glass houses.
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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Everybody should go to the news stand and buy a copy of the National Post. In it they have a full page of cartoons from Arab newspapers that are depicting Jews........... informative.