Philosophically speaking, religion is a hoax

[lieexpsr]

There is no religious group which asserts it has "all" the answers. They do, of course, indicate that they believe in a key to understanding the complexities and uncertainties of life for the billions of people who are wise enough to seek answers outside of their own experiences.

Point conceded to you. I take the liberty sometimes of not speaking literally. You would be one who would be familiar with that strategy!

 

[jimmoyer]

Global Warming Warriors have all the characteristics of true believers of a religion.

 

[lieexpsr]

Than do so. In other words, rather than insult and belittle people, suggest how you feel religious belief is a hoax. Don't generalize and state some foolish catch-phrase that "religion is a hoax" which answers nothing. You know the defintion of a hoax, as do all of us here. You have been happily not successfully challenged on this key issue of your thread. Everything else is sideline to that issue. The onus is on you to indicate at what point you feel the religious leaders of the world today, or the founders of the various spiritual movements, have purposely and willingly perpetuated a hoax on people. That was your hypothesis. This thread has gotten way off the track. I have no intention of arguing with you, or anyone, about the existence of God. I do, however, suggest you return to your stated premise and define in what ways exactly you feel religious belief has been a hoax. You are certainly free to dismiss religious belief in your life. You are also free to determine it is a hindrance in the life of those who do profess it. But again, this is beside the point of your theme. You need to, with absolute proof, indicate in which ways you feel people like Jesus, the Buddha, Mohammed or any other founder have engaged in an intentional hoax upon the people they encountered. In other words, you must convince us of your knowledge which proves that, for example, Joshua bar-Jonah(Jesus) perpetuated a false spiritual belief He Himself did not hold but still taught in order to con people.Further, you must indicate the purpose for this. Not the purpose of the present, but of the founder. What benefit to this young Jewish man and what did He gain from willingly creating this "hoax" you mentioned.

The hoax: Jesus was a mortal man and I say that because there is good evidence that he once lived. It would therefore be impossible for him to rise from death.

False (spiritual) belief: Jesus rose from death. If he came back to life he was not dead to start with and that is an hypothesis which is being bantered around now amongst those who are trying to sort through the myths. I'm not sure if I'm going to go with it yet because his body could have been spirited away by his followers. One thing is certain and that is that once a person is dead he is dead.

The benefits: You would be in a better position to lay out the benefits of the church and the benefits of religion than I am. Why indeed would anyone want to make followers believe that a man came back to life? What benefits does the church have for it's followers in your opinion? I see the benefit of it being a crutch for frail humans to lean on but I think it's time has come and passed. I think the natural world affords us all the support we require. And I see a lot of hindrances to humanity which are forced on us by religion but we can get into that later.

 

[lieexpsr]

You need to attempt actual research on a topic rather than relying on pages of the internet as your source of information. Atheism "ranks" #4? First, that is grossly inaccurate, and secondly, and so? Does this prove anything? You yourself have condemned using statistics as a valid point of claim. So constantly referring to numbers of non-believers is another pointless and useless method of "proving" anything.Millions of people on this planet believe Jews are seeking to destroy the world, does this number therefore support the validity of their claim?

In fact, this is the accurate and correct breakdown of major religious belief in the world, as reported by the United Nations:

1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
2. Islam: 1.3 billion
3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
4. Hinduism: 900 million
5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
6. Buddhism: 376 million
7. primal-indigenous: 300 million
8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
9. Sikhism: 23 million
10. Juche: 19 million
11. Spiritism: 15 million
12. Judaism: 14 million
13. Baha'i: 7 million
14. Jainism: 4.2 million
15. Shinto: 4 million
16. Cao Dai: 4 million
17. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
18. Tenrikyo: 2 million
19. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
21. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
22. Scientology: 500 thousand

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: This is a highly disparate group and not a single religion. Although atheists are a small subset of this grouping, this category is not synonymous with atheism. People who specify atheism as their religious preference actually make up less than one-half of one percent of the population in many countries where much large numbers claim no religious preference, such as the United States (13.2% nonreligious according to ARIS study of 2005) and Australia (15% nonreligious)

Phhtt! What's your point. Both our links give the Christians 2 billion roughly and according to some (maybe you) Christians the other 4.5 billion are toast when you people are raptured up. That's the big problem I was on about at the time. Other than that you are only disputing whether atheists, agnostics, non-believers number around 850 million. I have talked to my followers and they have agreed to let you drop us back to #5 if it makes you happy, and it saves wasting a lot of time.

 

[lieexpsr]

Childish ploy to focus on one aspect of a minority position to divert the attention of this thread into a direction where you are more comfortable. What the various religious people believe or do not believe is NOT the issue here. Who is or who is not going to Hell is NOT the issue here. What faith group I or anyone else belongs to is NOT the issue here. The issue is as you stated, that religious belief is a hoax. That, my very silly man, is what you must focus on. Sidetracking the discussion you suggested is proof only of the uncertainty of your hypothesis.

Well at least I can rest assured that my point is now conceded and that is that few Christians will become Muslims, Buddhists, etc. and vice versa. I think that satisfactorily proves that if a person was unlucky enough to have been born into another religion then he/she is toast in the eyes of most (maybe even you) Christians. I'm not a silly man but if you want to leave this issue on the side burner now then I agree to do that. Only on the side burner mind!

 

[lieexpsr]

Oddly enough, that is only your tactic, accuse me of trolling because you can not refute on thing I say.

pots and kettles and pots and kettles and...

Please! Contribute on topic or go away. You have been warned repeatedly about your abusive tactics which have no other purpose than to disabuse me and insult me.

 

[lieexpsr]

I would add his other tactic which is to divert attention away from his hypothesis. He has perpetuated this ongoing battle of various Christian beliefs which are totally beside the point. In fact, this has nothing to do with Christian doctrines at all. But by focussing on this one group of spiritual life, he can successfully avoid trying to prove that the religious beliefs of the world, whatever they are, are in fact intentional hoaxes.

Wasn't it you who was complaining about personal attacks? Now you are joining the troller? Have I perhaps grossly overestimated you by giving the the benefit of the doubt and assuming you were an educated man who would rise above the teenagers' nonsense?

 

[lieexpsr]

I shan't. Actually, in reading through his comments, I found myself laughing quite a bit. He's no match, that's for certain. What with the likes of you, Dexter, Gilbert and a few others I've argued with on this site, he seems so lightweight compared to you lot

Shame on you!

 

[lieexpsr]

Seems to me that the ones really bothered by lieexpsr words and views are those who are insecure in their own beliefs! Even those who claim not to believe are also bothered by his words and views.
I was not bothered the least because I am secure in my belief and nothing outside of that belief will disrupt, upset or cause me to retaliate with vicious remarks.

I have read all the posts from its beginning and everyone has responded unfavorably.

Given that the man’s views are different, yet he expressed heart where many of you have not.

Because I know who my Savior is and because I trust in Him with my life, I fear no evil.
Evil is in the hearts of mankind. It is a choice that we all have to either suppress it or use it for our benefit. That is the human element.
With out it, we could do no good!
For if we were all good, then the question would have to be: “How good are you, compared to what”?

So what lieexpsr is providing us with is the opportunity to do good. But instead, look as what it is bringing out of us!
He is no different than I, we are both fleshly creatures with the same ingredients to do good or evil.
That is no fault of our own but the fault of the creator. But that fault was an intended fault generated out of love.
How do I know? Because: He gave His only Son to be offered as a payment for the correction of that default condition.
Is that not proving His love for us?
In the face of adversity, and as the story goes, Satan offered Jesus the world, meaning bow to the flesh, and Jesus rejecting it over the will of the Father.

The number 40 is a number that denotes probation. Just as the Israelites being in the desert arena 40 years as their trial. Jesus was on trial 40 days and 40 nights as the story goes battling the elements of the flesh in our behalf.
But the fleshly lusts could not in all it’s offering persuade Jesus to bow to them because He had the Perfect Spirit of the living God in Him.
Thus He became our Savior as an offering for our sinful nature, that through Him could we find peace with the Father.

2Co 5:19 Our message is that God was making all human beings his friends through Christ. God did not keep an account of their sins, and he has given us the message which tells how he makes them his friends.
1Jo 4:10 This is what love is: it is not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the means by which our sins are forgiven.

There by, he who trusts and relies on Jesus has the peace of God resting on him.
Peace>>>AJ:love9:

Excellent points and excellent post! You are the brightest light to shine on this entire forum and they attempt to ostacize you for your beliefs. Why they (Gilbert and the troll) even mockingly suggested that they should introduce you to me so we could go at it. To me you are what Christians pertend to be, not what their 'big dog' is starting to turn out to be with his personal attacks on my character, along with the tiny yappers who are trying to sit on his shoulders.

 

[lieexpsr]

Did you know there are people out there that believe that we are on a round ball floating in space aroound other round balls..some of them on fire!!! That we have an invisible layer of protection around us to keep in an invisible life giving gas and protect these living forms from boogie man invisible fire ball rays that would surly kill us otherwise...They also say that there are other round floating balls circling other firey balls..get this..billions of miles from here... and that some of these balls may also have an invisible protection to allow these things that move without batteries to be err alive....

Can you believe that anyone would be so dumb as to think that???

We truthfully live with lots of magic and strange things...be since we have always lived with God around us, somethimes we can't see right infront of our noses...

Is it any more imposible for life just to be here on this planet then to say some inteligent force caused it?

Intelligent force, possible but extremely unlikely as our brains evolve and come closer to the point at which we may be able to understand the universe.

As an aside: If there are a billion, billion planets in the universe there are probably still a billion which are suitable for supporting life. If another genesis is discovered in our own solar system on perhaps a moon of Saturn, relgion is toast.

 

[lieexpsr]

intelligent design theory seems so much more likely to me than all of this existing out of random chance.

Only because you refuse to educate yourself on how natural selection works. Random chance has nothing whatsoever to do with the question. I'll explain if you wish but you will have to start talking to me again.

Lesson: Never say you are not going to talk to someone. It is always best just to do it and you will be able to come back when you choose. All others pay heed to that lesson.

 

[lieexpsr]

Lieexpsr you got my opinion about the god thing but here's a thing we should think about, ideas appear, they exist, they grow into material things and facts, god does exist as an idea, now what proof do we have that it hasn't or won't become real in the material sence, and avoid the ,but it's to bizzare thingy, because lots of previously too bizzare stuff is here now and some of it resembles magic sort of. Even your own argument and mine builds the god idea, it's odd how much effort we've both expended proveing something dosen't exist, if that idea was so self evident it shouldn't be so hard to point out the wrongness of it eh. Just a thought eh.:wave:

God can exist in your mind and the minds of others and I would have no objection to that at all. It may be odd how much effort we have put into this but no more odd how much effort relgioun has put into it's efforts to fool people with their superstitious beliefs. I mean Noah's ark, the tower of Babel, really! In this the 21st. century! I think they must be starting to hear footsteps behind them and if they aren't they should listen more carefully.

 

[lieexpsr]

Sanctus- Now that I have a little time to look at your list of religions and how many each has as followers, I note that they add up to something close to 6.5 billion. That poses a problem because there are still about 800-900 million atheist, agnostics, etc. to account for. Your list must be wrong and it's not at all surprising because religion would probably not want to admit that atheists actually do exist. Am I missing something there? Have I added wrong? Are atheists somehow included in each of the others on the list?

edit: Ooops, in my haste to read all your posts I missed that you had moved us atheists up to number 3.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. But again I ask, what is your point in disputing my stats in favour of yours. There is where I might be missing a point you may be attempting to make.

 

[talloola]

Did you know there are people out there that believe that we are on a round ball floating in space aroound other round balls..some of them on fire!!! That we have an invisible layer of protection around us to keep in an invisible life giving gas and protect these living forms from boogie man invisible fire ball rays that would surly kill us otherwise...They also say that there are other round floating balls circling other firey balls..get this..billions of miles from here... and that some of these balls may also have an invisible protection to allow these things that move without batteries to be err alive....

Can you believe that anyone would be so dumb as to think that???
I think it is "dumb" to believe in "fantasies" that have no basis for truth, if you have to use that
word "dumb".

We truthfully live with lots of magic and strange things...be since we have always lived with God around us, somethimes we can't see right infront of our noses...
What is right under our noses is our "earth" very real and alive, helping us to survive, and
giving us everything we need to exist, that is real, we can see it, not strange or a fantasy.

Is it any more imposible for life just to be here on this planet then to say some inteligent force caused it
Life hasn't "just" been for no reason, our earth developed to a state that allowed "life" to begin
to grow, that is sensible, fits in with sciencific findings, and will continue to do so.
Religious people think that if there isn't a god, what's the point, sad sad sad.

 

[talloola]

You are fundamentally correct. If he was indeed a true atheist, religious belief would not trouble him in others. He has already dismissed faith of any sort, so his only possible reasons for pursuing the topic is either to cause an uproar(troll) or because he is disquieted in his soul at how absurd his beliefs are.

I think you are right, just as you are not disquieted in your soul "as to" your belief, nor am I , in mine.
But, on the other hand, some people, just like to argue, can't stand the idea of anyone
disagreeing with them.

 

[lieexpsr]

In any case talloola yours mine, and sanctus's behaviour here are the same. That being said al that remains to be done by you two is invent a different excuse for it.

Of course Sanctus must have another explanation why he takes part here on this thread. It can't be the same reason I take part, and that admittedly is because religioun troubles me. Sanctus would never admit that atheism troubles him. But you, you are different. What causes you to take part on this forum that causes you to think it is a more lofty ideal or a better reason than I have? And why do you think you are not disquieted in your soul and I am?

And now that we are on the subject of what motivates people, perhaps we can also discuss what motivates Sanctus to start a thread on child abuse. Is he feeling compassion for children who are abused or is it damage control in a subconscious way? Would the fact that the catholic church is known to be protecting and has protected some of it's child abusers not cause him to steer well clear of the topic?

 

[RedGreen]

I posted this in another thread... This thread is more appropriate for this entry. The other thread got me going on this rant. For my previous entries that got me to this one see: the rise of christian facism thread.

Message to religious folks:

Value life more than you value the oh so precious after-life. Look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself if you are sure that there is a heaven and that you will forsure go there when you die. Next, ask yourself where someone from Jerusalem or Egypt who happens to practice a different faith but is a good person nonetheless will end-up. Do you know forsure that the palce you think you're going is not the same place they might be going... Or maybe nobody goes anywhere. Maybe we stay here as ghosts, or are reincarnated as another person or a plant. Maybe our spirits become free from our bodies when we die and because spirits don't likely conform to the laws of physics, maybe we can travel freely in space. Go where we want. Find answers to the universe.

Who really knows. All we know is we're here now and we have what we can see and feel that's about all. Why not make the most of what we have NOW and take things as they come. Stop wasting your time trying to figure out what will happen when we die or when our loved ones die. Or if you do insist on spending time on this matter (as it is obviously an interesting topic) don't be so sure that you and your peers are correct. Be open to the notion that other groups might have some good ideas. You don't have to believe the same things but just don't let disagreements about something that we don't know the answer and probably never will cause such divisions that can't be debated. Each religion is so set in its ways, there's no room for debate, learning or advances. It is how it is and that's it. Sounds pretty childish and stubborn that it is that way.

We are all brothers and sister with the same fate. Let's not forget that or think that we each have some sort of different fantastic fate like living on a cloud or burning forever in a cave or coming back to life as your favorite bird or marine mammal. We all live we all die, after that who knows. The most probable is that whatever happens to us happens to us all. We're really not that different from one another.

Adding to my post in the other thread...

i am spiritual but follow no one set of religious "rules". I am in partial agreement with what darkbeaver wrote about the sun being our god. We're all in the same boat so wall must have the same god if any at all. To think that each one of us is judged individually would be putting a lot on 'god's' plate. The sun is judging us as a whole. If we don't live in harmony with our planet, we get burned, literally. All of the energy the entire planet needs comes to us in the form of solar radiation. If some higher being is responsible for the sun being there then I guess that being would be our god but for now. The most logical god is our provider... The sun.

 

[talloola]

In any case talloola yours mine, and sanctus's behaviour here are the same. That being said al that remains to be done by you two is invent a different excuse for it.

Of course Sanctus must have another explanation why he takes part here on this thread. It can't be the same reason I take part, and that admittedly is because religioun troubles me. Sanctus would never admit that atheism troubles him. But you, you are different. What causes you to take part on this forum that causes you to think it is a more lofty ideal or a better reason than I have? And why do you think you are not disquieted in your soul and I am?

I don't think I actually said that about you, I gave two reasons people can post, maybe you fit into the latter, and
maybe you can give me "your" actual reason for posting, as it could be different again.
I truly don't understand how anyone could believe in a "god", but they do, and I accept that, nothing
I can do about it, and if they knew there was "no god", they would go out of their minds, seems like
they need that belief.

And now that we are on the subject of what motivates people, perhaps we can also discuss what motivates Sanctus to start a thread on child abuse. Is he feeling compassion for children who are abused or is it damage control in a subconscious way?

I am sure he has witnessed and done "healing" and "helped" many child abuse cases, so he probably
has first hand knowledge, and has seen for himself the huge problem.

Would the fact that the catholic church is known to be protecting and has protected some of it's child abusers not cause him to steer well clear of the topic

I wouldn't agree with that idea, but he will, I'm sure come on and explain himself, for himself.

I had to work my way onto these boards, get used to others, I had never done this before, so I
was kind of "raw" and too judgemental at first, don't feel that way now, but I have noticed, about
myself, that I just love to "know" how others think, whether it's my way or not, makes one much
smarter and broad minded, I guess. I am a very quiet person, don't mix, so, now I do, right here.

 

[karrie]

Value life more than you value the oh so precious after-life.

Religious tolerance is a wonderful message to spread. Each person should be allowed to worship or not worship as they see fit. If they want to devote all their time to pondering the afterlife, that's their perogative. If they want to spend all their time pondering the mysteries of science, that's awesome. It's when one belief system tries to impose its will on the others, that conflict arises. Thus, the key to peaceful coexistence, is being allowed to walk your own path of spirituality.

I like what you wrote about the sun by the way. very perceptive. :wave:

 

[RedGreen]

Thus, the key to peaceful coexistence, is being allowed to walk your own path of spirituality.

Agreed. Tell this to religious leaders and get them to pass the memo on to all their followers.