No, I don't catch your drift because neither you nor I nor the greatest scientific minds on the planet yet know for sure. Our brains are yet incapable of knowing for sure and understanding. Science doesn't mind admitting that. If you don't want to take part in the debate then go away. But otherwise, good post because it tells me that you do indeed understand a bit of what we are talking about.
Philosophically speaking, religion is a hoax
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No, I don't catch your drift because neither you nor I nor the greatest scientific minds on the planet yet know for sure. Our brains are yet incapable of knowing for sure and understanding. Science doesn't mind admitting that. If you don't want to take part in the debate then go away. But otherwise, good post because it tells me that you do indeed understand a bit of what we are talking about.
Its not a Christian Tactic, like you non-religious zealot, would say. You are being hate-driven. Accept no belief but your own, are rude, and are trying to stir up a dramatic free-for-all.
Got nothing to do with religion, you live for drama and you a creating it. And I don't think your worth my time, unless your going to go about this with civility, respect, and tolerance. Which so far you have not shown.
We all know, regardless of how the particapants in this thread feel, this thread is going to be either locked or picked up and thrown in Wreck Beach.
Got nothing to do with religion, you live for drama and you a creating it. And I don't think your worth my time, unless your going to go about this with civility, respect, and tolerance. Which so far you have not shown.
We all know, regardless of how the particapants in this thread feel, this thread is going to be either locked or picked up and thrown in Wreck Beach.
His original assertion has already been shown by pretty much everyone here to be false.
What marbles? What did you win? You hardly reply to what I say, you pick out one part and then start crapping about some stuff that barely has anything to do with the debate you yourself started. Your sarcasm and arrogant attitude isn't helping your supporting facts.
Got that right, many points in my previous posts, he never even addresses.
And, when you go about something in the way lieexpsr does, your not going to gain respect, or have people agreeing and joining your side.
And, when you go about something in the way lieexpsr does, your not going to gain respect, or have people agreeing and joining your side.
well but of course! the points he doesn't adress are those which are beneath his wonderous intellect! he is beneath having to show why he thinks you are beneath him. lol. it was neat hearing your views on this stuff though westman. too bad this couldn't have been a real discussion. Perhaps we'll get more opportunity to chat in future religion threads.
Well, I have just gone back to the first post on this thread and have read all of them.
I was amused with interest in that between unbelievers there is differences that are similar to believers quarreling over their own differences as well.
So, we have three separate battles going on here. Unbelievers against unbelievers: believers against believers and finally, believers against unbelievers.
A battle that has been going on since the dawn of the first human being: Except that today, we have a wealth of new information to battle with.
The thing that has not yet being mentioned has to do with the flesh.
All of us regardless of what we believe are made of flesh. And because of the flesh we are subject to: love/hate, happiness/anger, riches/poverty, good health/ill health, safety/natural disaster, wars/peace, high IQ/Low IQ, marriage/divorce, belief in God/no belief in God, etc.
All these things we have to contend with and will not go away. It is a must that we experience all of them at one point or another in our lives.
It is a constant having to choose as we come to the threshold of those issues. And based on our up bringing and the knowledge we gain from our parents and experiences is what will help us determine our stance on all these issues.
But one thing is for certain, that regardless of whom or what we are; we all will one day die. That is a given.
So what is it about the flesh that can make hell out of our existence? It seems that whatever we try to do, there is always something to counter it. If we like peace, there will always be someone to wreak it. If we want to love, there will always be some one to administer hate at any degree.
What makes the flesh undesirable is that we must suffer. Why must we have to suffer?
Could we have evolved in an un-suffering state? Perhaps so, but we didn’t! And we haven’t found the formula for not suffering yet after all these billions of years of human existence.
So the question has always being in the hearts of mankind, that surely there must be some kind of higher intelligences that is not physical but a spirit.
It is evident by history of the many attempts by mankind to identify just what this spirit is. Gnawing at the depths of one’s spirit lays a spark of conscience that dictates to us of something to do with a spiritual issue. Not really sure whether it is real or just a fantasy.
So, what would it take to come to terms with that spark: either yea or nay?
If yea, than a spiritual story of a God creator that loves us will gratify the yearnings to be comforted in the midst of our sufferings.
But if nay, the yearnings is suppressed by the thought that there is nothing more than mere existence and that’s the jest of it.
So the struggle continues to exist to this very day as evidenced by forums like this one where religion is discussed.
I believe that in my life’s experiences, gained knowledge, understanding and applied wisdom, I have concluded some of a catch all condition for all mankind.
Only as a believer could I come to that conclusion.
And for the author of this thread, I thank him for this opportunity to express my beliefs without his condemnation as professed on His opening statement. A privilege I was not given by all others who opposed my beliefs.
I would rather give lieexpsr more credence simply for the fact that he would not condemn me personally, maybe my beliefs, but not me personally.
Which: in my estimation holds more compassion than the ones who claim to be believers and those who don’t believe as well.
The bible relates a story to that effect: Mat 10:15 I assure you that on the Judgment Day God will show more mercy to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah than to the people of that town!
It is a shame that the witness of Christ is stifled by our own righteousness in our bickering in the courts of un-believers tarnishing the image of God.
These may be strong words I know but must be said.
And lieexpsr, like you I realize that this is not about you and I, but about all who read our posts, that must make up their own minds as to what to believe or not to believe.
I condemn you neither, but consider you a brother just like the rest of my brothers and sisters in this forum.
Peace>>>AJ:love9:
I was amused with interest in that between unbelievers there is differences that are similar to believers quarreling over their own differences as well.
So, we have three separate battles going on here. Unbelievers against unbelievers: believers against believers and finally, believers against unbelievers.
A battle that has been going on since the dawn of the first human being: Except that today, we have a wealth of new information to battle with.
The thing that has not yet being mentioned has to do with the flesh.
All of us regardless of what we believe are made of flesh. And because of the flesh we are subject to: love/hate, happiness/anger, riches/poverty, good health/ill health, safety/natural disaster, wars/peace, high IQ/Low IQ, marriage/divorce, belief in God/no belief in God, etc.
All these things we have to contend with and will not go away. It is a must that we experience all of them at one point or another in our lives.
It is a constant having to choose as we come to the threshold of those issues. And based on our up bringing and the knowledge we gain from our parents and experiences is what will help us determine our stance on all these issues.
But one thing is for certain, that regardless of whom or what we are; we all will one day die. That is a given.
So what is it about the flesh that can make hell out of our existence? It seems that whatever we try to do, there is always something to counter it. If we like peace, there will always be someone to wreak it. If we want to love, there will always be some one to administer hate at any degree.
What makes the flesh undesirable is that we must suffer. Why must we have to suffer?
Could we have evolved in an un-suffering state? Perhaps so, but we didn’t! And we haven’t found the formula for not suffering yet after all these billions of years of human existence.
So the question has always being in the hearts of mankind, that surely there must be some kind of higher intelligences that is not physical but a spirit.
It is evident by history of the many attempts by mankind to identify just what this spirit is. Gnawing at the depths of one’s spirit lays a spark of conscience that dictates to us of something to do with a spiritual issue. Not really sure whether it is real or just a fantasy.
So, what would it take to come to terms with that spark: either yea or nay?
If yea, than a spiritual story of a God creator that loves us will gratify the yearnings to be comforted in the midst of our sufferings.
But if nay, the yearnings is suppressed by the thought that there is nothing more than mere existence and that’s the jest of it.
So the struggle continues to exist to this very day as evidenced by forums like this one where religion is discussed.
I believe that in my life’s experiences, gained knowledge, understanding and applied wisdom, I have concluded some of a catch all condition for all mankind.
Only as a believer could I come to that conclusion.
And for the author of this thread, I thank him for this opportunity to express my beliefs without his condemnation as professed on His opening statement. A privilege I was not given by all others who opposed my beliefs.
I would rather give lieexpsr more credence simply for the fact that he would not condemn me personally, maybe my beliefs, but not me personally.
Which: in my estimation holds more compassion than the ones who claim to be believers and those who don’t believe as well.
The bible relates a story to that effect: Mat 10:15 I assure you that on the Judgment Day God will show more mercy to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah than to the people of that town!
It is a shame that the witness of Christ is stifled by our own righteousness in our bickering in the courts of un-believers tarnishing the image of God.
These may be strong words I know but must be said.
And lieexpsr, like you I realize that this is not about you and I, but about all who read our posts, that must make up their own minds as to what to believe or not to believe.
I condemn you neither, but consider you a brother just like the rest of my brothers and sisters in this forum.
Peace>>>AJ:love9:
First class BS. Anybody who's read this thread knows the context, except perhaps you, who chooses to ignore it. You're an atheist, obviously, as am I, and I'd like to agree with you and support you, but it's not enough to be right, you also have to be polite and respectful about it, which you don't seem to know how to do. And you're wrong about several things. This thread is mostly about you and your ego, which seems to be as big as the sky for no apparent reason, and you have not made the case that religion is a hoax. You offered a perfectly correct definition of what hoax means, but you don't seem to understand it yourself. I'd immediately agree with you that religion is wrong, a delusion, self-deception, wishful thinking, and so on, but it's not by any definition a hoax, and your presentation is so unnecessarily offensive that I cannot respect you or your views.
No doubt you'll respond that you don't respect me either; just try to imagine how much I don't care about that. I think you're essentially right about your views of religion as you've expressed them here, except for the hoax part, which requires an element of deliberate deception you have not demonstrated. I also think you're an arrogant, ignorant jerk about them. Being right doesn't justify being ill-mannered.
Well thank you AJ! In a way I am sorry that you complimented me because now when I respond positively to your post it may come off to the rabble around here as sucking up to you. I assure you that it is not and good post anyway. Just one point I wouldl like to throw back at you:
You said: "If yea, than a spiritual story of a God creator that loves us will gratify the yearnings to be comforted in the midst of our sufferings.
But if nay, the yearnings is suppressed by the thought that there is nothing more than mere existence and that’s the jest of it."
I don't question the comfort you find in your spirituality. But I do question your saying that there is nothing more than mere existance if there is no 'spark'. I take that as meaning if there is no god and for you nothing but mere existance.
For me a deeper understanding of the natural world fulfills my needs completely. I can learn how the eye works while understanding that it evolved from something much less. I can understand that even the smallest part of an eye or is useful and I can understand how natural selection caused our eyes to evolve to what they are now. Or I can marvel at the fact that a bat with very poor eyesight in many cases is far superior to us humans at finding and catching insects in the dead of night while flying at breakneck speed. And I can understand how that echo location system evolved over millions of years and step by painstaking step.
These are just two of the examples of the wonders of the world which make my life much more than just existance. And this is not to insult religious people like you but I feel pity for those who can't learn about all the wonders of nature because they are trapped in their religious beliefs which dictate that all these marvelous living machines were created.
The hand of God does nothing whatsoever for me because I don't believe that God exists. I am guided by science and the natural world and it will never let me down.
You said: "If yea, than a spiritual story of a God creator that loves us will gratify the yearnings to be comforted in the midst of our sufferings.
But if nay, the yearnings is suppressed by the thought that there is nothing more than mere existence and that’s the jest of it."
I don't question the comfort you find in your spirituality. But I do question your saying that there is nothing more than mere existance if there is no 'spark'. I take that as meaning if there is no god and for you nothing but mere existance.
For me a deeper understanding of the natural world fulfills my needs completely. I can learn how the eye works while understanding that it evolved from something much less. I can understand that even the smallest part of an eye or is useful and I can understand how natural selection caused our eyes to evolve to what they are now. Or I can marvel at the fact that a bat with very poor eyesight in many cases is far superior to us humans at finding and catching insects in the dead of night while flying at breakneck speed. And I can understand how that echo location system evolved over millions of years and step by painstaking step.
These are just two of the examples of the wonders of the world which make my life much more than just existance. And this is not to insult religious people like you but I feel pity for those who can't learn about all the wonders of nature because they are trapped in their religious beliefs which dictate that all these marvelous living machines were created.
The hand of God does nothing whatsoever for me because I don't believe that God exists. I am guided by science and the natural world and it will never let me down.
But Dexter I do respect you. You are an atheist and at least you have that right. But remember Dexter that this is not about you or me, it is about my assertion that relgion is a hoax. I'm not ignorant in the true sense of the word. I am not really as arrogant as I try to make you people believe. I am ill-mannered because I choose to answer the bad manners of others that way. Really Dexter, can you honestly say that your post is not as insulting and ill-mannered as you could possibly be? And of course I am absolutely right all of the time and on everything I talk about here on this forum.
Did you have a rebuttal to anything I have said Dexter? You suggest above that I am wrong about several things so I'm wondering if you care to elaborate on any of them. Or perhaps you are just blowing smoke up a dead dog's ass. If so then have a nice evening! ;-)
Thanks, Lieexprs, I have explained same in previous posts, but not quite so clearly, as my thoughts
are exactly the same as yours, and I am constantly overwhelmed by the happenings right here on
this earth, and would not know what more there would be to live for, we have everything here to
satisfy the human appetite and make us happy.
Clearly talloola, you have identified the culprit! Of course I’m referencing from a Godly standpoint.
That culprit is the flesh as described by you : “satisfy the human appetite and make us happy”.
The flesh is described by God as having lusts which are contrary to Godliness. Natural opposition) The natural inclination of the flesh is to self. While the Godly inclination is to God while in the flesh.
There is a constant warring of the Spirit of God and the fleshly lusts, each wanting supremacy over the flesh. The flesh wants for the flesh, while the Spirit of God in the flesh wants supremacy of the desires of the flesh.
The constitution of the soul of the flesh has to do with good and evil. That is a trait that the flesh has to contend with.
For if: we were out of the flesh (a spirit), there would be nothing but purity and goodness and love.
So the earthlings are on trial while in the flesh, that from it, we may learn to love one another.
In order to learn what good is, we must experience the evil side as well.
Peace>>>AJ:love9:
Your thoughts have to be kept in "your" world, they don't apply to mine, and have no meaning for me.
As I have expressed to you before, flesh is something on a chopping block that I might tenderize
for the barbeque.
Belief in God is not innate, instinct or any other natural phenomenon, as far as science has proven. The fact that Aethists exist is proof enough that is it possible for people to have no innate concept of God. Mathematically speaking, it's proof by contradiction; the easist proof to make.
Everyone looks for guidance in their lives. Whether they define short and long term goals or whether they think a figment of their imaginitions will come to them in their dreams or intuitively help them make the correct choice ... everyone definitely seeks and defines guidelines for making decisions that impact their future. Even people that practice Wicca are looking for a guide but that has nothing to do with the big bang or design.
I think you're mixing up the creationist versus evolution theory with a belief or denial of the existence of God. Can't someone believe in God without agreeing with creationism and can't someone believe in the big bang and still look for religious guidance in their lives?
Actually, science is fairly accurate in predicting what happens after death. Nothing. The heart stops beating. The soul is not preserved in some version of the physical body in a foggy happy place called heaven or a hot hellish place called down under. The heart stops, thinking stops, everything ceases to exist for the dead person other than some remnant in the memory of a living person.
There are several other available resources for personal strength, direction, guidance and life path than religion ... but if you're comfortable with religion and all it's misconceptions, there is no reason to understand why a belief in God is independent of the origin of man and his universe.
As for science proving religion, one need only study mathematics and the answer is obvious.
Understood!
In my world, "if" all of us on this earth are happy and satisfied, and didn't get that way by hurting
others, but, by being a positive influence to others on our earth, that is a good thing.
In my world, none of us have to spend energy satisfying anything outside of our world/earth.
We have more "chores" on this earth than we can keep up with so far, so to waste energy praying
and kneeling to "others" beyond our earthly beings/animals, would not be constructive, in my opinion. We havemuch to do, an earth to care for, with all of its living species, we are falling behind in this endeavor,and have to be more diligent.
You are fundamentally correct. If he was indeed a true atheist, religious belief would not trouble him in others. He has already dismissed faith of any sort, so his only possible reasons for pursuing the topic is either to cause an uproar(troll) or because he is disquieted in his soul at how absurd his beliefs are.
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