Palestinian Terrorist Again Using Children as Shields.
- Thread starter Sassylassie
- Start date
Sorry, my bad, I missed that.
Here is a quote from that HRW article. It seems pretty clear cut to me.
"Human Rights Watch’s research found that on a number of occasions Hezbollah unjustifiably endangered Lebanese civilians by storing weapons in civilian homes, firing rockets from populated areas, and allowing its fighters to operate from civilian homes. Hezbollah also used children as active combatants, another violation of the law. "
That seems pretty clear to me, the Hezbollah is just as guilty.
Do you agree?
Note how it says "research" which means that there may be some basis for the accusation. By contrast in that same article it says Israeli violations were "documented". In legal parlance there is a huge distinction.
Note that the accusations against Hezbollah made in 1996 were found to be baseless. Three months since the initial accusations have gone by and still no definitive documentation has been proferred to warrant any convictions. It would seem to me that 3 months is sufficient time to gather evidence and to make a holding that guilt has been established.
Note that the accusations against Hezbollah made in 1996 were found to be baseless. Three months since the initial accusations have gone by and still no definitive documentation has been proferred to warrant any convictions. It would seem to me that 3 months is sufficient time to gather evidence and to make a holding that guilt has been established.
Ahhh, come on Gopher, this is getting siily. You can not just dismiss facts because you don't like them, I like your perspective, hell you're smart and passionate. Don't be so one sided, that you make your views invalid.
That article I linked there, is from Israel's last lil tete et tete with the Hezbollah. So is that qoute.
'''dismiss facts'''
The truth of those "facts", or, more correctly, accusations, are to be ascertained in a court of law or other institution charged with investigating and providing remedies for violations of the law.
We are all entitled to our opinions but must defer to those institutions to ascertain those truths.
The truth of those "facts", or, more correctly, accusations, are to be ascertained in a court of law or other institution charged with investigating and providing remedies for violations of the law.
We are all entitled to our opinions but must defer to those institutions to ascertain those truths.
I agree with your summation of the facts CDNBear. Hezbollah is guilty of war crimes. So is Israel.
But the original Hezbollah raid which captured 2 IDF soldiers was not a war crime. Technically Israel and Lebanon are still at war. The Hezbollah raid on the IDF only involved military personnel. An important distinction is the Hezbollah raid did not target civilians and respected the April Agreement.
I'm not surprised most people don't know about the April Agreement or Israel's deliberate violation of this agreement when it escalated a minor border skirmish to lay waste to all of Lebanon, kill more than 1000 innocent civlians and displace about one million people.
I believe all is fair in love and war. But lets be straight about who did what to whom and when. Israel, not Hezbollah crossed the line first to include civilian targets first. During the first two days of this dispute, Hezbollah did not target Israeli civilians as per the April Agreement. Only after it became clear that Israel had no intention of respecting the terms of the April Agreement did Hezbollah declare "war without limits".
Israel didn't have to target Lebanese civilians. They could have respected its agreement with Lebanon not to target civilians, but they made a deliberate choice to commit war crimes.
Those of you who believe that Hezbollah was wrong to target Israeli civilians in response to Israel's attacks on Lebanese civilians should post what they think would have been an appropriate response to Israel's violation of the April Agreement and subsequent war crimes.
Consider also, why did Israel finally agree to a ceasefire? If Hezbollah did not launch rocket attacks on Israeli civilians, would Israel have just kept killing Lebanese civilians?
So yes Hezbollah committed war crimes. But they were in response to Israel's far greater war crimes.
But the original Hezbollah raid which captured 2 IDF soldiers was not a war crime. Technically Israel and Lebanon are still at war. The Hezbollah raid on the IDF only involved military personnel. An important distinction is the Hezbollah raid did not target civilians and respected the April Agreement.
I'm not surprised most people don't know about the April Agreement or Israel's deliberate violation of this agreement when it escalated a minor border skirmish to lay waste to all of Lebanon, kill more than 1000 innocent civlians and displace about one million people.
I believe all is fair in love and war. But lets be straight about who did what to whom and when. Israel, not Hezbollah crossed the line first to include civilian targets first. During the first two days of this dispute, Hezbollah did not target Israeli civilians as per the April Agreement. Only after it became clear that Israel had no intention of respecting the terms of the April Agreement did Hezbollah declare "war without limits".
Israel didn't have to target Lebanese civilians. They could have respected its agreement with Lebanon not to target civilians, but they made a deliberate choice to commit war crimes.
Those of you who believe that Hezbollah was wrong to target Israeli civilians in response to Israel's attacks on Lebanese civilians should post what they think would have been an appropriate response to Israel's violation of the April Agreement and subsequent war crimes.
Consider also, why did Israel finally agree to a ceasefire? If Hezbollah did not launch rocket attacks on Israeli civilians, would Israel have just kept killing Lebanese civilians?
So yes Hezbollah committed war crimes. But they were in response to Israel's far greater war crimes.
Peace will come when americans will kick their governement ass, same with israelis.
Logic 7 october 2006.
This is what ALBERT EINSTEIN AND HANNA ARENGHT( two great jewish) think of israel made by people like golda meir.
"""Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the �Freedom Party� (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine."""
But i guess they are anti-semite, the great popular song sang over the world by great zionists.
And I do see your point, but for one minute, I would like you to take a walk in my shoes.
I'm an IDF soldier, I'm at my post as ordered, I'm fufilling my obligation to my country, by serving my manditory term, or I'm a carreer soldier(I'm not sure of the soldiers cridentials).
My post is attacked, I'm over run and captured. I'm being held by a group, that neither believes in or accepts my right to exist, not the Geneva Convention.
I'm scared, I'm in deep sh*t. My only consolation is, knowing my brothers and my Nations policy of getting me back at all costs.
I have a jaded view of the Hezbollah, to say the least. The Lebonese are not my allies, and quite frankly my chances of survival are slim.
But I'm holding on to that hope, that they're coming for me.
They're coming for me.
As a soldier, not only can I sympathise with that, I'm terrified by it. I also feel his pride and his belief in his Nation, to do what is best for him. That is my point.
You may not all understand what it is like to face those facts, but I can assure you, they are real and they are terrifying. To face someone on the field of battle and know in your heart, your foe has your death on his mind, is something that not all can handle. But live lightly and freely in the fact that we are willing to do it for you. Whether you agree with it or not, that is what drives most of us.
Sorry, I missed your post to me previously.
Bear has also said both on this thread and on another that I insulted him. Then, when I asked for specifics he said he was only joking. However, he has again said that I insulted him and others. But he still has not presented any specific quotes that show I used pejoratives on anyone.
Using pejoratives is not my style as anyone who has read my posts over the period of time I have been on this board can readily attest to. As anyone can see, I backup my views with links and with reasoned arguments. Remarkably, my answers to the questions I have gotten are ignored and the links are totally disregarded as well. Then I am the one accused of ignoring their questions!
I agree with you that at times the discourse on this forum can be childish. That is most unfortunate. Why these unwarranted accusations persist is beyond all reason. And it's time for the accusers to consider their own shortcomings before criticizing others.
In the above scenario, the soldier is defending himself or their country. I don't have any problems with soldiers who do their duty... within limits. But I do have a problem with soldiers committing war crimes or atrocities voluntarily or under orders. "I was just following orders" is not a valid defense.
Many IDF soldiers have come to the conclusion that if they carried out some IDF orders, they would be committing war crimes. They have refused to carry out those orders:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refusal_to_serve_in_the_Israeli_military
How about putting yourself in a Palestinian father's shoes for a moment. Imagine this girl was your daughter:
The Killing of Iman al-Hams
Executing Another Child in Rafah
By OMAR BARGHOUTI
October 25, 2004
CounterPunch
[SIZE=-1]Iman al-Hams was a 13-year old refugee schoolgirl who was executed -- after being wounded -- by an Israeli platoon commander on the sad sands of Rafah.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]According to testimonies given by soldiers in the same company to the mass Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth, a soldier in the watchtower identified Iman and cautioned his commander shouting, "Don't shoot. It's a little girl". The company commander, the soldiers testified, "approached her, shot two bullets into her [head], walked back towards the force, turned back to her, switched his weapon to automatic and emptied his entire magazine into her." (1) Eyewitnessescorroborated the soldiers, account, saying that Iman was shot almost 70 meters away from the Israeli military position. After a bullet hit her leg, Iman, who was wearing her school uniform, fell. Then, they said, the officer went over to her, saw that she was bleeding from her wounds, but still shot her twice in the head to "confirm the killing", an Israeli euphemism for the practice of executing a wounded Palestinian. A cursory army investigation later cleared him of any "unethical conduct", as is customary, and suspended him only because of "poor relations with subordinates".(2)[/SIZE]
The rest here:
http://www.pcdc.edu.ps/Killing_Iman_al-Hams.htm
This was not an isolated incident. The IDF has a record of killing indiscriminately without provocation.
Gaza's tragic classroom casualties
By Alan Johnston
BBC, Gaza
Some of Raghda's classmates were too distraught to attend classes
Nine-year-old Raghda al-Assar died last week after being hit by Israeli fire while sitting at her school desk in the Gaza Strip - the fourth child hit in similar circumstances in 18 months. The BBC's Alan Johnston visits the scene of the incident:
...The UN says that the soldiers shot indiscriminately into the crowded refugee camp for more than half an hour...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3693860.stmhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3693860.stm
Indiscriminate killing by the IDF isn't limited to Gaza and the West Bank. When the IDF went into Lebanon this summer, they also killed innocent Lebanese civilians indiscriminately:
So yes I agree with you that a soldier has a duty to defend themselves, their fellow soldiers and their country. But I do not support the indiscriminate killing of civilians. Clearly the IDF has been getting away with this for years.
I have never accused you of insulting anyone. Perhaps, our definition of attack, is different.
I jokingly made a comment, that you took as an attack, to which I have apologised more then once. I have never attacked you in any way, and if I have, like I said before, my apologies.
You claim that you post links and back up your assertions, yet when those of us, that do not agree with your disection of the truth, post articles from your sources to the contrary, you dismiss them as accusatory, and not based in fact.
I have made more then one refferance to your intellect and my admiration of your passion. Both made in a positive way.
The only thing you have insulted, is our intellegence.
I supplied proof that the Hezbollah has committed war crimes, period. I even managed to find it at the HRW, like you said woud be the only source you would accept. Now you disregard it, and play the hurt child. Good for you. I'm not going to have a discussion with someone, that sets the rules by which they want to debate, then switches mid game, because it no longer works in their favour. Have fun.
BTW Gopher, the person you replied to with the post I quoted, began his comment to me, by calling my a communist, then later, a Neo Con. Both personal attacks. Albeit, confusing, but personal none the less.
Last edited:
You say you never accused me of attacking anyone? What's this:
October 18th, 2006, 10:32 PM
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CDNBear vbmenu_register("postmenu_738593", true);
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Posts: 378
Ok, Gopher I re read your posts.
You fight the good fight, but you have attacked or rebuttled, anyone that fails to fall in line with you.
You points are valid, but your absolute-ist frame of mind, will not allow any deviation ..."
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While I am mindful that you now assert to not having accused me of attacking anyone, just read your own previous words. Be also mindful that you say I "attack our intelligence" but offer no substantive proof of it.
Not so strangely, another poster used profane language and it went without any form of criticism here. That's proof of a double standard being demonstrated by certain people here, not an assault on anyone's intelligence when I point that out.
I missed the line about someone calling you a communist. While I cannot be held accountable for that, you may want to re-post it here and ask for a retraction. And note that I waited for a retraction for the insults that were directed at me but which did not come.
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re the IDF in Qana in 1996 see,
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/robert_fisk_qana.html
it contains supplemental links with further data
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Look at me!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 378
Ok, Gopher I re read your posts.
You fight the good fight, but you have attacked or rebuttled, anyone that fails to fall in line with you.
You points are valid, but your absolute-ist frame of mind, will not allow any deviation ..."
```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
While I am mindful that you now assert to not having accused me of attacking anyone, just read your own previous words. Be also mindful that you say I "attack our intelligence" but offer no substantive proof of it.
Not so strangely, another poster used profane language and it went without any form of criticism here. That's proof of a double standard being demonstrated by certain people here, not an assault on anyone's intelligence when I point that out.
I missed the line about someone calling you a communist. While I cannot be held accountable for that, you may want to re-post it here and ask for a retraction. And note that I waited for a retraction for the insults that were directed at me but which did not come.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
re the IDF in Qana in 1996 see,
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/robert_fisk_qana.html
it contains supplemental links with further data
I'm unsure of the context of this, but if its about the IDF use of human shields, the Israeli Supreme Court has determined the IDF is guilty of using innocent Palestinians as human shields.
Israeli court bans human shields
By Harvey Morris in Jerusalem
October 6 2005
The Israeli Supreme Court on Thursday outlawed the army's use of Palestinian civilians as human shields during round-ups of suspects in the occupied territories, ruling the practice contrary to international law.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/044e49e8-3682-11da-bedc-00000e2511c8.html
Even though the Israeli Supreme Court has found the IDF guilty of using human shields and banned the practice, the IDF has ignored the ruling and continues to use Palestinians as human shields.
From B'TSELEM - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories was established in 1989 by a group of prominent academics, attorneys, journalists, and Knesset members. It endeavors to document and educate the Israeli public and policymakers about human rights violations in the Occupied Territories, combat the phenomenon of denial prevalent among the Israeli public, and help create a human rights culture in Israel.
The above references events in July 2006, proving the IDF still uses innocent civilians as human shields in contempt of the Israeli Supreme Court and international law.
You say you never accused me of attacking anyone? What's this:
October 18th, 2006, 10:32 PM
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/avatars/cdnbear.gif?dateline=1161297734CDNBear vbmenu_register("postmenu_738593", true);
Look at me!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 378
Ok, Gopher I re read your posts.
You fight the good fight, but you have attacked or rebuttled, anyone that fails to fall in line with you.
You points are valid, but your absolute-ist frame of mind, will not allow any deviation ..."
```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
While I am mindful that you now assert to not having accused me of attacking anyone, just read your own previous words. Be also mindful that you say I "attack our intelligence" but offer no substantive proof of it.
Not so strangely, another poster used profane language and it went without any form of criticism here. That's proof of a double standard being demonstrated by certain people here, not an assault on anyone's intelligence when I point that out.
I missed the line about someone calling you a communist. While I cannot be held accountable for that, you may want to re-post it here and ask for a retraction. And note that I waited for a retraction for the insults that were directed at me but which did not come.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
re the IDF in Qana in 1996 see,
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/robert_fisk_qana.html
it contains supplemental links with further data
Great your feelings are hurt, you've lost the battle, so now you'll harp on and on about whom insulted who. Here ya go Gopher, I'll play Jesus. I'm so sorry for ever saying anything about anything regarding you, and as Jesus, I'm sorry anybody said anything prejoritive about you. Happy now?
You still haven't got a leg to stand on, your point of asking for proof the Hezbollah used civilians, as shield, was given. By YOUR rules, it had to come from the HRW, it did. Now it has to come from a court of law? Give it a rest. That is childish(prejortively speaking), the games not going in your favour, so you change the rules. I accept the IDF has used human shields, I don't care, but I accept it. That's because Gopher, I can accept when I'm in the wrong, I will not run off at the mouth about other issues to fog the main issue. I retract my original assertion that ITN should run for office. I think you should, you are better suited for the position.
Address that!
http://soapbox.msn.com/video.aspx?vid=79ef3dfd-9e89-4e9a-ba63-920fef044075
here is some insight on the basis of the education system............
here is some insight on the basis of the education system............
Another attack on the poster as apposed to the post, so what colour is the pot today?
The US earned it, which is probaly the reason behind their feverish patriotism. Nothing can be truly valued until its value is learned.
How exactly does something arise from within, if not earned in some way. My point was, having democracy forced on a nation does not do it any service. Its value will never be known by the peole under it live. Kind of like in Canada. People like you prove this point oh so well. You value nothing, but the space in which accupy, and nothing more.
You again have condridicted your own value system, please pick a side of the fence to sit on. Or perhaps you should stop copy/pasting other peoples thoughts and values. That way you won't run into this problem again.
hey mikey all of 19,
that is just too stupid to do anything but laugh...
please Mikey do tell us, what, if anything is your point...
too funny...
Now here is a telling statement, from a what, a Jihad Muslim who is not allowed into our country, oh, boo-hoo, go change your diaper...
that is just too stupid to do anything but laugh...
please Mikey do tell us, what, if anything is your point...
too funny...
Now here is a telling statement, from a what, a Jihad Muslim who is not allowed into our country, oh, boo-hoo, go change your diaper...
Ummm, northstar, you just shot me in the foot. Cease fire, cease fire!!!
Those quotes you just smashed are mine, ouch, that hurts. But I still stand by them.