Pacifists versus peace

Lineman

No sparks please
Feb 27, 2006
452
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Winnipeg, Manitoba
Re: RE: Pacifists versus peac

hermanntrude said:
fighting for peace is like fu�©king for virginity

Sorry I can't agree, there are times, not always but often, when imposing peace is all that is left.
But what's with the virgin thing, that might be worth a try! :wink:
 

Lineman

No sparks please
Feb 27, 2006
452
7
18
Winnipeg, Manitoba
Re: RE: Pacifists versus peac

gopher said:
Ain't no bigger pacifist in human history that Jesus Christ. It's a good bet that if He walked the earth today, the right wing warmongers would kill Him again.

Pontius Pilate was a Republican? Musta missed that part.... :roll:
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
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feronia said:
My personal Hero is the Dalai Lama.

http://www.dalailama.com/page.62.htm#Solving_Human_problem

There's a great deal of material to read there if you're interested.

Would a pacifist do the same or let himself be bowled over, give up his freedoms, and choose to live peacefully but oppressed under the warmonger's rule?

This man did. Seven Years in Tibet with Brad Pitt http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120102/ talks about the early years of the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama is a man to admire and a man that lives his words.


The Dalai Lama is a really good example of a pacifist who has accomplished a lot by the approach of pacifism. He has used pacifism as a strength. He spared Tibet a bloody conflict with the Chinese in a non-violent struggle for the liberation of his country. While there has been some loss in the Tibetan culture in Tibet due to the Chinese occupation placing a blanket of control over the cultural practices of the Tibetan people, the Dalai Lama in his exile has managed to alternatively promote the culture and his political struggle throughout the world.

As a result his philosophies/teachings on human conduct are now preserved in a more shared global interest and practice and there continues to be pressure on China for the occupation of Tibet without bloodshed.

There is a lot to admire about this person and his practice of restraint. His teaching are about being inclusive to people no matter what your culture is or your faith.
 

typingrandomstuff

Duration_Improvate
Read carefully as I explain so you can understand these things.

pacifics,

fights for peace. what an irony. You cannot fight for peace can you? But pacifics do that. :?

Real peace is from peace troops

peace troops goes to explain and to satisfy both sides. Both sides are to step down or back off a couple. When both sides backed off, peace or temporary peace is there.

Here's another irony.

Peacemakers have to accept war, and understand war. It is like understanding your enemy.

If they go against war. It's peacemakers warring war.

Do you understand these?
 

Caleb-Dain Matton

Electoral Member
Jun 14, 2006
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www.commondreams.org
typingrandomstuff said:
Read carefully as I explain so you can understand these things.

pacifics,

fights for peace. what an irony. You cannot fight for peace can you? But pacifics do that. :?

Real peace is from peace troops

peace troops goes to explain and to satisfy both sides. Both sides are to step down or back off a couple. When both sides backed off, peace or temporary peace is there.

Here's another irony.

Peacemakers have to accept war, and understand war. It is like understanding your enemy.

If they go against war. It's peacemakers warring war.

Do you understand these?

I see what you are saying but what if we rephrase "pacifists fight for peace" into "pacifists campaign for peace" then it doesn't sound so odd. I'm not a pacifist. I'm "Billy Jack" style! Anyone remember Billy Jack? He was cool until he went to Washington.
 

feronia

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Jul 19, 2006
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typingrandomstuff said:
Read carefully as I explain so you can understand these things.

pacifics,

fights for peace. what an irony. You cannot fight for peace can you? But pacifics do that. :?

Real peace is from peace troops

peace troops goes to explain and to satisfy both sides. Both sides are to step down or back off a couple. When both sides backed off, peace or temporary peace is there.

Here's another irony.

Peacemakers have to accept war, and understand war. It is like understanding your enemy.

If they go against war. It's peacemakers warring war.

Do you understand these?

First off, I am not a three year old that needs to be talked down to.

Secondly, did you read any of the links I posted on the Dalai Lama or Gandhi?
 

typingrandomstuff

Duration_Improvate
It's great, but I'm not talking down a 3 year old. Hum. It's easier to explain that way. Besides, I'm not an adult completely yet. And I can sumarize even if I did not read the facts about Dalai Lama or Gandhi. I do know they are people who keeps peace by giving speaches and supports that all religions should join kind of idea. They go against people who might do ill to their health. I do not think Dalai Lama or Gandhi is a peace pacifics, but if you think so.
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
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RE: Pacifists versus peac

As it is written in the Christian New Testament --- practice peace with all men.


That is what all Christians are supposed to be saying and doing!
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Pacifist beliefs are anti-peace???... ridiculous.

I am a pacifist and very much pro-peace. But I am also realistic.

War exists... and in war... atrocities occur. I don't excuse anyone's atrocities, neither Israel's nor those who resist Israel.

If belligerents want to fight, so be it. But all sides must respect international laws or face criminal prosecution.

Hezbollah's initial July 12 raid into Israel was purely military and in the context of that ongoing conflict's long history of cross border raids by both sides.... legal.

Israel's targetting of Hezbollah in response was legal.

But Israel's leaders committed war crimes when they escalated the war to include innocent Lebanese civilians which had nothing to do with the military conflict.

WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGES OF LEBANESE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060721&articleId=2787

Hezbollah waited almost 24 hours after Israel had started targetting Lebanese civilian targets, like the Beirut airport, before firing its first rocket into Israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5179434.stm

Human Rights Watch believes Israel committed war crimes:

Human Rights Watch

Israel/Lebanon: End Indiscriminate Strikes on Civilians
Some Israeli Attacks Amount to War Crimes

(Beirut, August 3, 2006) – Israeli forces have systematically failed to distinguish between combatants and civilians in their military campaign against Hezbollah in Lebanon, Human Rights Watch said in report released today. The pattern of attacks in more than 20 cases investigated by Human Rights Watch researchers in Lebanon indicates that the failures cannot be dismissed as mere accidents and cannot be blamed on wrongful Hezbollah practices. In some cases, these attacks constitute war crimes...

...“The pattern of attacks shows the Israeli military’s disturbing disregard for the lives of Lebanese civilians,” said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch...

...Human Rights Watch researchers found numerous cases in which the IDF launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military objectives but excessive civilian cost. In many cases, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target. In some instances, Israeli forces appear to have deliberately targeted civilians...
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/02/lebano13902.htm

Deliberately attacking civilians is a war crime.

As a result, Israeli actions in Lebanon are being investigated by the UN Human Rights Commision.

HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL
Second special session
11 August 2006

...Outraged at the continuing senseless killings by Israel, with impunity, of children,
women, the elderly and other civilians in Lebanon,
1. Strongly condemns the grave Israeli violations of human rights and breaches of
international humanitarian law in Lebanon;
2. Condemns the massive bombardment of Lebanese civilian populations, especially
the massacres in Qana, Marwaheen, Al Duweir, Al Bayadah, Al Qaa, Chiyah, Ghazieh and other
towns of Lebanon, causing thousands of deaths and injuries, mostly among children and women,
and the displacement of 1 million civilians, according to a preliminary assessment, thus
exacerbating the magnitude of the human suffering of the Lebanese;
3. Also condemns the Israeli bombardment of vital civilian infrastructure resulting in
extensive destruction and heavy damage to public and private properties;
4. Calls on Israel to abide, immediately and scrupulously, by its obligations under
human rights law, in particular the Convention on the Rights of the Child, and international
humanitarian law;
5. Also calls on Israel to immediately stop military operations against civilian
population and civilian objects resulting in death and destruction and serious violations of
human rights;
6. Decides to dispatch urgently a high-level commission of inquiry comprising
relevant human rights special procedures mandate holders and experts of international
humanitarian law:
(a) To investigate the systematic targeting and killings of civilians by Israel in
Lebanon;
(b) To examine the types of weapons used by Israel and their conformity with the
international law;
(c) To assess the extent and deadly impact of Israeli attacks on human life, property,
critical infrastructure and the environment...

http://www.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/specialsession/A.HRC.S-2.L.1_en.pdf

Whether or not Hezbollah's leaders are guilty of war crimes too depends on whether their response to Israeli war crimes was justified/reasonable.

But how I feel about this really has no effect on the ongoing crisis. This war will play out no matter how I feel about it.

All I can do is donate money to help war victms, try to make sure the truth about this conflict is widely known and support leaders who believe in justice, freedom and peace.

If you can't tell which leaders are which, I suggest this bit of wisdom:

Judge a tree by the fruit that it bears.

Harper's stance on Israel cause for concern

By Don Maroc
Aug 16 2006

...Our PM should think about getting too closely linked with such a dangerously hypocritical U.S. government that pledges its enduring support for the Lebanese people and their government while, at the same moment, shipping cargo planes full of five-tonne, bunker-buster bombs to the Israeli military to drop on Lebanese civilian targets...

...When Bush launched the U.S. blitzkreig into Iraq, Harper wrote in the Wall Street Journal criticizing the Canadian government for staying out of the war. He later stated we must stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the U.S. because, "In an increasingly globalized and borderless world, the relationship between Canada and the United States is essential to our prosperity, to our democracy and to our future-"

"Steve" Harper has not been deceitful, we know where he stands and the direction he intends for Canada...

http://www.cowichannewsleader.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=9&cat=48&id=709107&more=
 

feronia

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Jul 19, 2006
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http://api.synacor.com/api/hangar.p...es.synacor.com/ap_photos//XGA10508171415.jpeg


A Buddhist monk, member of the National Anti War Front, participates in a peace rally in Colombo,...


A Buddhist monk, member of the National Anti War Front, participates in a peace rally in Colombo,... Fighting Escalates in Northern Sri Lanka
Thursday, August 17, 2006 2:48 PM EDT
The Associated Press
By CASSIE BIGGS

COLOMBO, Sri Lanka (AP) — Tamil Tiger rebels launched fresh attacks on key targets in northern Sri Lanka, where a week of fierce fighting has killed more than 800 rebels and security forces, the military said Thursday.

The clashes in northern Jaffna Peninsula came as Sri Lanka's president vowed the government would not bow to insurgent demands and withdraw from the north, which is claimed by the rebels as the heartland of ethnic Tamil culture.

The United States and the European Union separately called for an end to hostilities.

"We believe that the continuation of the fighting will only make the prospects for peace worse and will benefit neither side," U.S. Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Steven Mann said.

The European Union said in a statement that it is "deeply concerned about the growing humanitarian crisis in Sri Lanka and the suffering of innocent people."

Twenty boats from the Tigers' feared sea unit attacked a strategic land and naval base in northern Kilaly, off the west coast of Jaffna, prompting a gunbattle that lasted until dawn Thursday, military spokesman Maj. Upali Rajapakse said.

Rajapakse said the navy sunk three rebel boats and killed 70 rebels, who also attacked by land. He said about 15 soldiers and sailors were killed.

The fighting in Jaffna Peninsula, about 186 miles north of Colombo, has been some of the heaviest since the two sides signed a cease-fire in 2002.

Although the peninsula is controlled by the government, it is cut off from the rest of the mainland by rebel territory and is considered an integral part of an independent Tamil homeland, for which the Tigers have been fighting for more than 20 years.

Since Aug. 11, the insurgents have stepped up efforts to retake the peninsula in fighting that has killed at least 700 rebels and 106 government troops, Rajapakse said.

He said between another 500 to 600 rebels and about 170 government forces have been wounded.

Tiger officials could not immediately be reached to confirm the report, but each side routinely disputes the accounts — and death tolls — offered by the other. It is virtually impossible to verify their claims with the area largely closed off by the violence.

Also in Jaffna, insurgents fired a barrage of rockets and artillery at a government air base, according to the pro-rebel TamilNet Web site. It said the Tigers may have hit a military helicopter that was about to take off. The military denied the aircraft was damaged.

Government forces fired on rebel-held areas in Muttur, a town near the eastern port of Trincomalee, close to where fighting broke out in late July over a rebel blockade of a water supply, the Web site reported.

The two sides have traded artillery and mortar fire for weeks in the area, from which tens of thousands of civilians have fled.

Norway brokered the supposed cease-fire between the rebels and government, which is dominated by representatives of Sri Lanka's 14 million predominantly Buddhist Sinhalese. The country's 3.2 million Tamils are largely Hindu.

Thorfinnur Omarsson, a spokesman for the truce monitors, said they had moved out of Trincomalee because shells had fallen too close to the team's housing. He said they would continue to monitor the conflict from a town about 25 miles away, until it was safe to return.

"We are supposed to monitor a cease-fire, not a war," Omarsson said.

———

Associated Press writer Bharatha Mallawarachi contributed to this report
 

gopher

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Jun 26, 2005
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I'd like a so-called Christian to find where Jesus advocated war.




Neither Jesus nor the desciples ever mandated war.

John the Baptist specifically told Christians soldiers to NEVER cause harm to anyone --- Luke 3:14


Jesus said "those who take up the sword shall DIE by the sword" --- Matthew 26:52


The apostle Paul said "do good to ALL men" --- Galatians 6:10.


Only a God hating ANTICHRIST denies these Holy Truths.
 

feronia

Time Out
Jul 19, 2006
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gopher said:

I'd like a so-called Christian to find where Jesus advocated war.




Neither Jesus nor the desciples ever mandated war.

John the Baptist specifically told Christians soldiers to NEVER cause harm to anyone --- Luke 3:14


Jesus said "those who take up the sword shall DIE by the sword" --- Matthew 26:52


The apostle Paul said "do good to ALL men" --- Galatians 6:10.


Only a God hating ANTICHRIST denies these Holy Truths.

Let me guess you're a Christian. Do you think head banging really gets your point across? I agree with most of your post but your delivery (antichrist?) makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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feronia

re:The two sides have traded artillery and mortar fire for weeks in the area, from which tens of thousands of civilians have fled.

Norway brokered the supposed cease-fire between the rebels and government, which is dominated by representatives of Sri Lanka's 14 million predominantly Buddhist Sinhalese. The country's 3.2 million Tamils are largely Hindu.

Thorfinnur Omarsson, a spokesman for the truce monitors, said they had moved out of Trincomalee because shells had fallen too close to the team's housing. He said they would continue to monitor the conflict from a town about 25 miles away, until it was safe to return.

"We are supposed to monitor a cease-fire, not a war," Omarsson said.

Dalai Lama interview:

Hana Gartner: But while you can concede that sometimes it's necessary, there are those in Tibet who believe there is justification that if you do not stand up, if you just are a pacifist, you empower the person who is oppressing you.

Dalai Lama: Individual case? For example, if mad dog coming, almost certain now bite you. Then if you say, non-violence, non-violence and compassion…

Hana Gartner: You get bitten!

Dalai Lama: That's kind of foolish! You have to take use of self-defence. But without harming, without serious harming another, I think that's the way I feel. If someone try to shoot on you, then there is no possibility to run away, then you have to hit back. Then possibly not on head, but leg or something like that. So that's not serious hit back, but more lenient way, more gentle way.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/dalailama/interview.html


earth_as_one said:
The French president left open the possibility that France might eventually provide more soldiers and said some 1,700 French troops positioned near Lebanon would be made available to the United Nations but would not be placed under UN control.

France and Italy have demanded the UN set out clear ground rules of the force's mission and methods before formally committing troops to bolster the force.

http://story.malaysiasun.com/p.x/ct/9/cid/b8de8e630faf3631/id/457ec559446b5c0b/

Are the objectives clearly defined?
Powell Doctrine

Are the rules fair to both sides or designed to give one side an advantage over the other.

Can UN Peacekeepers engage both Hezbollah and Israel equally if either violate the terms of the truce? Or is the UN just tasked to accurately report the level of compliance by both sides, defend themselves and not intervene.

I can understand why countries might be cautious about putting their finest in harms way without rules of engagement and clear objectives.
 

typingrandomstuff

Duration_Improvate
RE: Pacifists versus peac

Everyone has a point. Some people might just be peaceful just to the point of speech. And others cannot. No, peacekeepers are suppose to solve peace directly by giving them the things the both sides need. Their leaders, however, have another idea in those worlds of "peace" and thus, many times, this peace is not achieved. Also, some peacekeeping skills are really hard to achieve. Many people would want peace, but their troops do not have the nessisary skills to be a peacekeeper. Most nowadays peacekeeper troops are trained to military. As for Jesus or religious leaders, please read second post.
 

typingrandomstuff

Duration_Improvate
RE: Pacifists versus peac

If I disrespects anyone, please note I'm just a starter, and I hope for your forgivance. Jesus is the son of god and he is an inspiration. For gods and religious figures, I would agree as a yes because they are words and I cannot critisize a religion aspect.
See 3rd post for suggested solution.