Not all educators are bad!

PoliticalNick

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(FOX NEWS) -
A Utah high school football coach, fed up with his players' off-the-field behavior, suspended all 80 members of the team and made them help out in the community instead of practice.

Matt Labrum, football coach at Union High School, in Roosevelt, said problems ranging from cutting class to cyberbullying prompted his extreme response, according to the Deseret News.



The whole story....
Utah coach suspends entire football team to build character

We need to clone this guy!
 

taxslave

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There are some really good and dedicated teachers out there. Unfortunatelt there are many more that are totally worthless and hide behind their unions.
 

Sal

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There are some really good and dedicated teachers out there. Unfortunatelt there are many more that are totally worthless and hide behind their unions.
there are some, and it would likely be equal to the population in any industry as far as worthless goes.

"We looked at it as a chance to say, ‘Hey, we need to focus on some other things that are more important than winning a football game," Labrum said. "We got an emotional response from the boys. I think it really meant something to them, which was nice to see that it does mean something. There was none of them that fought us on it."
Labrum was prompted to act after guidance counselors told him about a student who had been bullied on a website and suspected football players were behind it. Although coaches could not tell who was behind the bullying, Labrum told his team "we don't want that represented in our program."
He was also concerned about players failing and skipping classes and showing disrespect to teachers.At the team meeting a day after the mass suspensions, Labrum passed out a letter titled "Union Football Character," telling the boys what they had to do to get back on the field.
The team is still scheduled to play a homecoming game against Emery High Friday, but instead of practicing, they've been performing community service, attending study hall and going to a class on character development. They were also required to write a report about their actions.
Jenn Rook said she objected at first, but now stands behind the coach.
"I do support it," Rook said. "These boys are not going to be hurt by this. It's a good life lesson. … It's not a punishment. I see it as an opportunity to do some good in the community."

For some of them, this may save their life, literally! Too many football players are treated like gods within their schools. They develop a sense of entitlement by position rather by workers.
 

taxslave

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there are some, and it would likely be equal to the population in any industry as far as worthless goes.



For some of them, this may save their life, literally! Too many football players are treated like gods within their schools. They develop a sense of entitlement by position rather by workers.

Difference being that worthless teachers and worse worthless senior education managers get to shape our kids future.
 

captain morgan

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there are some, and it would likely be equal to the population in any industry as far as worthless goes.

Very true, but when a (teachers) union has a virtual monopoly on the supply-side of things, the union can effectively eliminate any efficient capacity to weed-out the worst.

Result is that the superior instructors are dragged down to that low standard
 

WLDB

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ha. They must really be into it to cry over it. I was thrilled when I got out of hockey. I enjoyed playing playing on my own time far more than playing it at school. I didnt really get along with most of the school's team.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Very true, but when a (teachers) union has a virtual monopoly on the supply-side of things, the union can effectively eliminate any efficient capacity to weed-out the worst.

Result is that the superior instructors are dragged down to that low standard
Possibly, but the Indianapolis Public Schools have, for the last four years, using a flaw in the union contract, fired all of their teachers, re-hiring them without seniority at the whim of principals at the start of each year. Do you think such shenanigans attract the highest quality of teachers?

I am well aware, painfully so, that the unions spend an inordinate amount of time protecting workers who should be fired. But to imply that they are the only source of the problem is a bit narrow.
 

captain morgan

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Possibly, but the Indianapolis Public Schools have, for the last four years, using a flaw in the union contract, fired all of their teachers, re-hiring them without seniority at the whim of principals at the start of each year. Do you think such shenanigans attract the highest quality of teachers?

I am well aware, painfully so, that the unions spend an inordinate amount of time protecting workers who should be fired. But to imply that they are the only source of the problem is a bit narrow.

What happened in Indianapolis is dirty pool, however, I am willing to bet that the actions were a byproduct of a broken foundation in the general system. (caveat: I am unfamiliar with the circumstance/system/union in Indianapolis but am speculating on potential experiential similarities)

The notion that the situation has to even come to that point strongly suggests that the whole she-bang is in need of a systems reset.

Bottom-line: The waste of Board and Union resources comes at the direct expense of the students themselves
 

Tecumsehsbones

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What happened in Indianapolis is dirty pool, however, I am willing to bet that the actions were a byproduct of a broken foundation in the general system. (caveat: I am unfamiliar with the circumstance/system/union in Indianapolis but am speculating on potential experiential similarities)

The notion that the situation has to even come to that point strongly suggests that the whole she-bang is in need of a systems reset.

Bottom-line: The waste of Board and Union resources comes at the direct expense of the students themselves
Umm. . . the creation of unions is a byproduct (read: direct result) of a broken foundation in the general system. That's kinda my whole point.

In the case of teaching in the public schools, are you aware that the main grievance of teachers back in the day the teachers' unions started to form is that most of them were paid, not in money, but in scrip that could only be spent in a limited selection of local stores?

Again, cap, I'm well aware of the many, many problems of unions, chief of which, as I said, is that so many of them feel compelled to defend those who should by rights be fired. But until such time as the shortcomings and flaws of the system are addressed (which they never will be), I see no reason why people who have spent large amounts of their own time and money to qualify for a profession should have their livelihoods held to the whim of frequently stupid, ideological, and vicious bosses and petty politicians.

You do realise, I hope, that union contracts are negociated? Perhaps the fault lies in the school boards and administrations for negociating badly? I know that here in the Land of the Fee that many school districts have renegociated their union contracts, and that many of them are far better in the article of teacher qualification and performance.
 

captain morgan

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Umm. . . the creation of unions is a byproduct (read: direct result) of a broken foundation in the general system. That's kinda my whole point.

Was this union formed in, say, the last 10 years or so?


You do realise, I hope, that union contracts are negociated?

They are?... News to me


Perhaps the fault lies in the school boards and administrations for negociating badly? I know that here in the Land of the Fee that many school districts have renegociated their union contracts, and that many of them are far better in the article of teacher qualification and performance.

The experience up here is that as the union represents the vast majority of the total population of teachers, the negotiations are essentially a foregone conclusion. In effect, as I mentioned to Sal, there is a virtual monopoly on the supply side and the union knows full well that a prolonged strike will have a huge impact on the communities.

... So, tell me again how the union's contemporary issues are on being paid in scrip?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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The experience up here is that as the union represents the vast majority of the total population of teachers, the negotiations are essentially a foregone conclusion. In effect, as I mentioned to Sal, there is a virtual monopoly on the supply side and the union knows full well that a prolonged strike will have a huge impact on the communities.
So maybe your real beef is with the education administration (whether elected or appointed, I don't know) and its piss-poor negociating, and the fact that the "community" is insufficiently mature to give it the backing it needs to be effective, n'est-ce pas?

... So, tell me again how the union's contemporary issues are on being paid in scrip?
I never said it was, and I'm disappointed at the poor quality of your little fling at me. I find it disrespectful, and I demand a better quality of jibes, insults, and rhetorical crap. To whom do you think you are speaking, sir?
 

captain morgan

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So maybe your real beef is with the education administration (whether elected or appointed, I don't know) and its piss-poor negociating, and the fact that the "community" is insufficiently mature to give it the backing it needs to be effective, n'est-ce pas?

My beef lies in the legislation that works to punish the employer and protect the union presence.

I have no problems with a group of employees that want to form a union, but the system does not allow the employer free choice to accept that union presence or not

I never said it was, and I'm disappointed at the poor quality of your little fling at me. I find it disrespectful, and I demand a better quality of jibes, insults, and rhetorical crap. To whom do you think you are speaking, sir?

Then why bring up such an antiquated reason for union existence? It's not like eviiilllll landowners are forcing 7 year olds to haul coal carts underground anymore
 

Tecumsehsbones

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My beef lies in the legislation that works to punish the employer and protect the union presence.

I have no problems with a group of employees that want to form a union, but the system does not allow the employer free choice to accept that union presence or not
I have a problem with corporations (private or public, like governments) that insisted that while it was perfectly acceptable and indeed laudable to form corporations to limit the stockholders' or citizens' risk in the world, it is unacceptable and wrong for people to form organisations to limit workers' risk in the world. Which is the history of unions in a nutshell.

Then why bring up such an antiquated reason for union existence? It's not like eviiilllll landowners are forcing 7 year olds to haul coal carts underground anymore
It was historical. Hence my use of the "back in the day" phrase. Perhaps if you were a bit more on your game, you might have connected that with my example of the Indianapolis Public Schools, and realised that unions continue to exist because the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and ordinary asswittery continue to assail all of us, including workers in general and teachers in particular.
 

captain morgan

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I have a problem with corporations (private or public, like governments) that insisted that while it was perfectly acceptable and indeed laudable to form corporations to limit the stockholders' or citizens' risk in the world, it is unacceptable and wrong for people to form organisations to limit workers' risk in the world. Which is the history of unions in a nutshell.

The pendulum has swung all the way to the other side... If you truly feel this way (above), your suggestions would be more towards a balancing of the equation.

It was historical. Hence my use of the "back in the day" phrase. Perhaps if you were a bit more on your game, you might have connected that with my example of the Indianapolis Public Schools, and realised that unions continue to exist because the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and ordinary asswittery continue to assail all of us, including workers in general and teachers in particular.

Let's look at some contemporary examples... Detroit for example. Much (as the large majority) of their debt is sourced in the unfunded liabilities of the public sector pensions, bennies and wages that have grown exorbitantly in the face of contraction of all other sectors... The 'union' there has everyone by the balls and refuses to budge.

They are canibalising themselves and the community at large... Nice thing for them though, is that the public has little recourse unless they opt for a salted-Earth policy.

So - exactly what risk (other than self-destructing from their own greed and stupidity) does the union face?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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The pendulum has swung all the way to the other side... If you truly feel this way (above), your suggestions would be more towards a balancing of the equation.
The pendulum may have swung "all the way to the other side" in your neck of the woods, but hereabouts all the news for the last five years has been of union givebacks, concessions, and a general swing of the bargaining power to management. Unfortunately, it appears that in many, possibly most cases, management is more interested in the gross numbers rather than procedures for things like qualification, training, performance, and discipline. The good news is that, in some cases, school districts have significantly revamped teacher performance standards.



Let's look at some contemporary examples... Detroit for example. Much (as the large majority) of their debt is sourced in the unfunded liabilities of the public sector pensions, bennies and wages that have grown exorbitantly in the face of contraction of all other sectors... The 'union' there has everyone by the balls and refuses to budge.

They are canibalising themselves and the community at large... Nice thing for them though, is that the public has little recourse unless they opt for a salted-Earth policy.

So - exactly what risk (other than self-destructing from their own greed and stupidity) does the union face?
I gave you a contemporary example: the Indianapolis Public School system. And you agreed it was a case of the administration behaving in a way that was inimical to retaining good teachers. Thank you.

In the case of Detroit, several outcomes are possible, most of which involve the state or Federal governments taking over Detroit's obligations. But I don't really understand your point here. Did Detroit have a contract with its public sector unions, or did it not? And are you not generally a fellow who believes that contracts should be freely entered into, and then enforced according to their terms? Even if those contracts massively disadvantage one party? Is not "the law will not protect you from a bad business deal" a saying with which you agree?

The unions (and the public employees) are in a bad situation here. Detroit continue to contract with them for reasonably generous benefits while not knowing how it would pay for them. How is that the unions' fault? Detroit also increased its public workforce while its population steadily declined. And now we have a very bad situation where public employees, retired or close to retirement, may be impoverished by a reduction in their benefits on which they rely to live.

Is it a bad situation? Absolutely. But let us say you are responsible for public employees' benefits, particularly retirement benefits. What would you do? Would you accept the impoverishment of your constituency, or would you hold out for state or Federal help?

Do you miss the fact that most of these public sector employees have worked for decades and rely primarily or even exclusively on their retirement benefits to live? You talk much about the accursed unions, but you have given me no indication that you understand that if the union caves in to the demands of the city, its members and beneficiaries will be on welfare for the remainder of their lives. Do you consider that an acceptable outcome?
 

Spade

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Nov 18, 2008
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Eighty players on an American football team? Seems a little ungainly, especially if they are all on that small field at once! Vive la CFL!
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Eighty players on an American football team? Seems a little ungainly, especially if they are all on that small field at once! Vive la CFL!

NFL rosters are 53. No limits for high schools or colleges.

Vive la CFL, indeed, and Go Riders! I love the Canadian game.
 

PoliticalNick

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I just want to say I am against unions. I would never be a part of one. I am quite capable of negotiating my own deal based on my experience and job performance. Last thing I want is to be included with a bunch of union slackers.
 

Spade

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I just want to say I am against unions. I would never be a part of one. I am quite capable of negotiating my own deal based on my experience and job performance. Last thing I want is to be included with a bunch of union slackers.

Brother, and I use that term loosely, pffft!
 

Sal

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Difference being that worthless teachers and worse worthless senior education managers get to shape our kids future.
not really, they have the teacher for 9 months, 6 hours, five days a week...our education system ranks high world wide... besides what constitutes a bad teacher? They have a curriculum to follow, your average kid would barely notice.

Very true, but when a (teachers) union has a virtual monopoly on the supply-side of things, the union can effectively eliminate any efficient capacity to weed-out the worst.

Result is that the superior instructors are dragged down to that low standard
They really aren't CM, a great teacher is still great regardless of the standard set by mediocre... and as I said above, your average kid will barely notice...last three years I have seen very few bad teachers...worst I have seen was one who was unbalanced with discipline, she would go nuts on the kids in the hall, she would yell... the kids were afraid of her but she was a good educator...not a great educator but she was okay...

the union does protect the bad and the good yes but union presence doesn't mean most teachers are bad although it appears that's the public's perception, they really have zero knowledge on what happens in a classroom or the methods used to help a teacher to exit early regardless of if they want to stay or not

They are?... News to me
Of course they are... all contracts are bargained between school boards and unions.