No survivors in crash of Germanwings jet carrying 150; black box recovered

[SLM]

How is it the fault of the airline? Did they improperly screen the co-pilot? Should doctors have to immediatly report their patients health to the employer if that patient is a pilot?

I would think that would depend upon the diagnosis. Like I mentioned before, doctors here are required by law to report immediately to the ministry if a patient has a condition that might make them unfit to drive. I can only imagine the onus is higher for a commercial airline pilot.

 

[B00Mer]

So he was declared unfit to work by his doctor..

Authorities found torn-up medical documents from his doctor declaring him unfit to work, including on the day of the crash.

I wonder if the doctor is having second thoughts about maybe IF notifying the employer directly, could have saved 150 lives.

 

[DaSleeper]

I'm glad they didn't find a muslim connection, because it would have made the backlash and riots after Charlie Hebdo seem like a kindergarten argument!

 

[SLM]

So he was declared unfit to work by his doctor..

Authorities found torn-up medical documents from his doctor declaring him unfit to work, including on the day of the crash.

I wonder if the doctor is having second thoughts about maybe IF notifying the employer directly, could have saved 150 lives.

That would depend on the laws there, they may not be able to do that legally.

 

[DaSleeper]

I f a doctor has the slightest suspicion that you are unfit to drive in Ontario, they contact the MTO directly and they pull your license.

 

[B00Mer]

I f a doctor has the slightest suspicion that you are unfit to drive in Ontario, they contact the MTO directly and they pull your license.

They do that for Truck Drivers..here in Alberta.

 

[petros]

Yes.. how about you?? Angela Lansbury

I hoped someone would have the sense to find an old photo. Thanks B00Mer

 

[DaSleeper]

They do that for Truck Drivers..here in Alberta.

The lady next door suffered a mild heart attack last year, and her license was pulled for six months...
A couple of months after she got it back she got another attack and died.

 

[Sal]

see what a nightmare they are experiencing attempting to get at the bodies...jesus what a mind altering experience that will be...picking up body parts as you rappel down a mountain....

"Since they don't know the mountains, you need to provide them with equipment, you need to hold them with rope, give them crampons so they can work well and as precisely as possible, so that no evidence, no body part could escape their vigilance," Naffrechoux said.
Workers are now looking into the possibility of building a road to the site, Naffrechoux said.


As that difficult work continued, relatives and friends of the victims traveled on Lufthansa flights to an area near the site where their loved ones perished.

it is gonna take a long time to recover those pieces of human wreckage

 

[Ludlow]

maybe it's time to get back to it

Emma Lazarus. It was a good poem.

 

[Sal]

Emma Lazarus. It was a good poem.

yeah, 'pparently it expired...

 

[Ludlow]

yeah, 'pparently it expired...

It was just a poem. Nice thoughts though.

 

[Sal]

It was just a poem. Nice thoughts though.

sometimes your understated humour strikes me as hilarious Ludlow

This is just what google came up with.

ASN News » List of aircraft accidents caused by pilot suicide

Looks like many of them stole the plane they went down in.

yes stolen most and not many really

 

[Blackleaf]

I hoped someone would have the sense to find an old photo. Thanks B00Mer

An English rose.

Or, at least, she was then. Not so much now.

Funny you mention that. I heard one of the FAA guys on the radio and in the US there must be two people in the cockpit. When a pilot needs a bathroom break one of the flight crew must replace him/her in the cockpit.

I guess in Canada it is the same way.

Irish airline Ryanair and British airlines Monarch and Jet2.com also have that system.

Ryanair said it already operates a policy requiring two people in the cockpit 'at all times'.

Its spokeswoman said: 'If a pilot needs to visit the bathroom the cabin crew supervisor is required to stand in the cockpit for these brief periods.'

Monarch's spokeswoman added: 'We also have an 'eyes-on' rule requiring cabin crew to enter the cockpit during the cruising stage to check on the pilot and co-pilot.'

A Jet2.com spokeswoman said: 'This rule has been in place for a number of years to ensure the safety and security of our customers.'

​

 

[Sal]

they can have all the rules set in place but are they followed?

if you have to go to the bathroom and there are two of you in the cockpit, both healthy individuals not likely to have a heart attack or stroke out any time soon and even if they did, the plane could fly itself for hours, how likely is it that they are going to call a supervisor to go to the bathroom? it's not like you are going to think: "I can't trust this sod that I am working with, he will fly this plane into a mountain on purpose if I leave him alone"

the person beside you should be trustworthy so the failure was not at the cockpit level....it was with their screening system

in reality it was just a perfect storm

those poor copter guys and the village people picking up body parts ... my god

 

[SLM]

they can have all the rules set in place but are they followed?

if you have to go to the bathroom and there are two of you in the cockpit, both healthy individuals not likely to have a heart attack or stroke out any time soon and even if they did, the plane could fly itself for hours, how likely is it that they are going to call a supervisor to go to the bathroom? it's not like you are going to think: "I can't trust this sod that I am working with, he will fly this plane into a mountain on purpose if I leave him alone"

the person beside you should be trustworthy so the failure was not at the cockpit level....it was with their screening system

Well, yes and no. The question needs to asked "Were all reasonable precautions taken, that could be taken, to screen this and all individuals for medical competency to perform their duties?" Perhaps all reasonable precautions were taken. An evaluation is not a crystal ball, it can't predict the future with 100% accuracy.

in reality it was just a perfect storm

I still have to place a good portion of the blame upon the individual. At some point, during periods of being 'well' he was capable of assessing what could happen based on what he knew about his illness. To disregard that when you are in a position that puts hundreds of lives in your hands is willfully negligent. If someone has epilepsy and knows that, despite medication, a seizure can occur, do they bear some blame for driving a bus full of people that crashes when they have a seizure?

 

[Sal]

Well, yes and no. The question needs to asked "Were all reasonable precautions taken, that could be taken, to screen this and all individuals for medical competency to perform their duties?"

and the answer is yes

Perhaps all reasonable precautions were taken. An evaluation is not a crystal ball, it can't predict the future with 100% accuracy.

they (meaning someone) did know he was unfit...thus there's a hole in a system that allows an individual to be assessed as mentally unqualified to work, rip it up, garbage it, and then skip along to work

that's where their system failed. I don't know their legal system but ours has become dicey within the last 10 or so years due to the "freedom of information act, and the individuals right to privacy" you can't even ask a room number to visit someone in hospital...if you don't know the room number then it must be concluded you have no right to know

I still have to place a good portion of the blame upon the individual. At some point, during periods of being 'well' he was capable of assessing what could happen based on what he knew about his illness. To disregard that when you are in a position that puts hundreds of lives in your hands is willfully negligent. If someone has epilepsy and knows that, despite medication, a seizure can occur, do they bear some blame for driving a bus full of people that crashes when they have a seizure?

clearly he murdered them all and is responsible for their deaths

however, there is also a systemic problem which allowed a mentally incompetant individual control of a plane full of trusting souls

when I board a plane, I cannot know with certainty that the plane will safely deposit me on the other side of the world, but I do have to trust that those responsible for my travel have done the best they can to ensure its probability.

I don't know if that was the case here.

 

[tay]

So he was declared unfit to work by his doctor..

Authorities found torn-up medical documents from his doctor declaring him unfit to work, including on the day of the crash.

I wonder if the doctor is having second thoughts about maybe IF notifying the employer directly, could have saved 150 lives.

They knew of his previous issues which begs the question, 'how did they know'? Was the Medical report sent directly to the employer? If yes, was the latest Medical report sent to the employer?


If Yes, the employer is at fault.


If No, why not?


Why they would let him fly while on 'mind altering drugs' is going to require a lot of explanation.


I have a b-in-law who lost his big truck licence due to taking such medications.




The claims are that 'he hid the illness' but the following suggests otherwise.






Lubitz's health timeline

• 2009: Breaks off pilot training while still in his early twenties after suffering "depressions and anxiety attacks", the German tabloid Bild reports, quoting Lufthansa medical files. Resumes training after 18 months of treatment, according to Bild
• 2013: Qualifies "with flying colours" as pilot, according to Lufthansa
• 2013-2015: Medical file quoted by Bild marks him as requiring "specific regular medical examination" but no details are given
• February 2015: Undergoes diagnosis at Duesseldorf University Clinic for an unspecified illness; clinic has clarified the illness was not depression
• 10 March 2015: Again attends Duesseldorf University Clinic
• 24 March 2015:Is believed to have deliberately crashed airliner, killing himself and 149 others
• 26 March 2015: Prosecutors announce that two sick notes have been found torn up at his addresses in Germany

Alps crash: UK victim's father in plea to airlines - BBC News








Germany’s Federal Aviation Office said on Friday that Mr. Lubitz had a known medical condition, though he was still permitted to fly. Carsten Spohr, Lufthansa’s chief executive, said at a news conference on Thursday that Mr. Lubitz “was 100 percent flightworthy without any limitations.”

 

[SLM]

and the answer is yes
they (meaning someone) did know he was unfit...thus there's a hole in a system that allows an individual to be assessed as mentally unqualified to work, rip it up, garbage it, and then skip along to work

that's where their system failed. I don't know their legal system but ours has become dicey within the last 10 or so years due to the "freedom of information act, and the individuals right to privacy" you can't even ask a room number to visit someone in hospital...if you don't know the room number then it must be concluded you have no right to know

clearly he murdered them all and is responsible for their deaths

however, there is also a systemic problem which allowed a mentally incompetant individual control of a plane full of trusting souls

when I board a plane, I cannot know with certainty that the plane will safely deposit me on the other side of the world, but I do have to trust that those responsible for my travel have done the best they can to ensure its probability.

I don't know if that was the case here.

With the information I have read thus far, the only problem I see is his personal private physician not reporting his illness to the airline safety administration (whatever that is in Germany). But, not knowing German law, I don't know that the physician could have legally done so, if he/she can and didn't then the blame lies with them. But then again I don't know if his personal physician, assuming not a psychiatrist, was fully aware of how bad things had become. There were reports of him(the pilot) tearing up doctor's notes but we don't know what's on those notes.

I know here in Ontario, as has been mentioned many times in this thread, doctors are legally required to report to the Ministry of Transportation if a patient has a condition which may make them unfit to drive a car. This was born out of pressure from the medical community itself when doctors were having a difficult time trying to convince their patients to voluntarily not drive based on their medical conditions and were, at the time, legally forbidden from revealing any private medical information to government.

As with all things, hindsight is 20/20. If there were signs and reports of troubling matters with regards to this individual that weren't followed up according to protocol, then that's a liability issue. If there were things that could have been done but weren't because the protocols weren't in place, that's a societal issue that needs to be seriously evaluated and addressed.

 

[Sal]

With the information I have read thus far, the only problem I see is his personal private physician not reporting his illness to the airline safety administration (whatever that is in Germany). But, not knowing German law, I don't know that the physician could have legally done so, if he/she can and didn't then the blame lies with them. But then again I don't know if his personal physician, assuming not a psychiatrist, was fully aware of how bad things had become. There were reports of him(the pilot) tearing up doctor's notes but we don't know what's on those notes.

I know here in Ontario, as has been mentioned many times in this thread, doctors are legally required to report to the Ministry of Transportation if a patient has a condition which may make them unfit to drive a car. This was born out of pressure from the medical community itself when doctors were having a difficult time trying to convince their patients to voluntarily not drive based on their medical conditions and were, at the time, legally forbidden from revealing any private medical information to government.

As with all things, hindsight is 20/20. If there were signs and reports of troubling matters with regards to this individual that weren't followed up according to protocol, then that's a liability issue. If there were things that could have been done but weren't because the protocols weren't in place, that's a societal issue that needs to be seriously evaluated and addressed.

here's a piece that I find relevant:

The German tabloid paper Bild said [in German] it had seen documents that said he was suffering from a "personal life crisis", having recently broken up with a girlfriend. A note on the Federal Aviation Authority's medical records for Lubitz says that he had to go for special medical checks, the paper reports.

those who knew him were shocked saying he was not the type of individual to hurt another

I don't know if this type of thing can ever actually fully be prevented...people snap and break sometimes