New evidence...humans reaching southern Chile 15,000 BP

AnnaG

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Watching that movie "a perfect storm" would tend to make one believe that a rickety old boat made of wood and sails would be hard pressed to make it a few miles on the open ocean. Interesting thoughts though on mans ingenuity.
Pretty good movie, that was I thought.
I am pretty sure that ancient peoples had weather patterns for regions figured out better than we and I think the craftsmanship of those ancient wooden vessels is surprisingly durable.
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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Well, I can believe 16,000 years ago as the first "ships" were built around 8000 BCE, but 60,000 is pushing it especially for long voyages extending beyond a few days. Crossing a lake or poling across a river is one thing, ocean travel quite another.

We should be very carefull in accepting dates for historical firsts. I am beginning a eight volume seris of books about the history of historys. History is a weapon and has been for a long long time. The keepers of history are a very powerful lot and the masses need only a cloudy partial understanding of it to go about in the service of that powerful lot. To much information is not good for the masses, it would only upset them. Conspiracy is as old as history.

Authors' note:

Created finally in the XVI century A.D. and accepted today chronology and history of the ancient and medieval world, evidently contains big mistakes.
Many outstanding scientists understood it and discussed during a long period of time. But it appeared to be a difficult task to build a new, non-contradictory concept of chronology.
Starting from 1975 a group of mathematicians, mainly from the Moscow State University, were engaged in the development of this problem. Interesting results were received and published both in scientific periodical print and in separate monographs. We underline, that new concept of chronology is based, mainly, on analysis of historical sources WITH THE METHODS OF MODERN MATHEMATICAL STATISTICS and vast COMPUTER CALCULATIONS.
The task of chronology is to put in order the events into proper way on a temporary scale based on the available information. This task naturally fits into the field of applications to modern mathematical statistics, theory of information. The methods of humanities, one of which is history, are not enough for solving chronological issues. New chronology imposes another psychological picture of perception of the antiquity. Now the word "antiquity" should be connected with XV-XVII centuries A.D. that is with the events, distant from us on 300-400 years. Expression "high antiquity" should now relate to the XIII-XIV centuries A.D. And the words "the highest antiquity" – are already the XI-XII centuries A. D. BEFORE THE X-XI CENTURIES A.D. THE EPOCH OF SILENCE OF WRITTEN DOCUMENTS COMES. (See the book RECONSTRUCTION).
Our analyses of the chronology and history opened a striking circumstance. Based on the applied by us mathematical methods it was proved, that the Scaligerian chronology, and therefore also the Scaligerian history of the "antiquity" and the Middle Ages, is totally wrong. Moreover, it appeared that our history right up to the end of the XVI century was consciously falsified at the epoch of the XVII-XVIII centuries.
A.T.Fomenko, G.V.Nosovskiy
BOOKS ON NEW CHRONOLOGY >>


 

Ludlow

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Pretty good movie, that was I thought.
I am pretty sure that ancient peoples had weather patterns for regions figured out better than we and I think the craftsmanship of those ancient wooden vessels is surprisingly durable.
It would be interesting to see their moisture proof joinery.

This was a good idea for a thread Bill, but you should try to keep in mind the multitude of other thoughts and opinions that something as interesting as ancient building techniques will spawn. I have had an interest in this stuff for fifty years, I'm not an expert but I'm not inclined to take the established thinking too seriously. I have never had the chance or the money to see the wonders of the world maybe next year maybe not. cheers
I find the subject and the photos fascinating the only fly in the ointment being the " I'm smart and everyone else is stupid mentality' which is ever present with this one.
"
 

AnnaG

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lol Questioning stuff is the nature of science, Beav. I got into the habit of extending the time of stated dates to around double. It is why I suggested that 16,000 years ago is possible, rather than the time of the first known ships. 60,000 years is stretching things a bit unless one is only considering crossing a lake or whatever. I cannot think that some dude 60,000 years ago was triggered by his curiosity enough to overcome the fear of building a raft with the intention on floating across an ocean out beyond the horizon and into the vast unknown. He would likely think that he would fall over the edge. lol

It would be interesting to see their moisture proof joinery. Hubby got curious one time after chatting with a friend who mentioned Japanese joinery to him. Hubby bought a few books on the topic and I find them really fascinating. They do some very intricate joints using only the wood in some cases, rather than screws, nails, dowels, and glue. Anyways, my ancestors, the first birchbark canoe builders used tree sap to keep water out. So I can imagine other ancients did as well. =)

Fascinating stuff it is, I agree.
 

Ludlow

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Yeah. Being a furniture maker myself it's fun to be able to build things without modern fastening methods. I remember an episode of little house where the old Jewish coffin maker would tell Albert his apprentice, " remember. No nails", And for every coffin made a seed of a tree was planted in the earth. There's one area we have not improved on. Woodworking.

I'd like to see what method the ancients used to bend wood. Fire and water I suppose. Hell the forms would require more wood than the boat itself.
 

AnnaG

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hehe Water, stakes, and fire maybe.
I made a bow that way one time. Arrows were my problem (crooked eyes maybe?) haha. Arrowheads were tedious.
 

MHz

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That is how neighbours used to build entire barns in a single day. That has been done at least once. And, as a matter of fact, that is likely how monkeys got to South America from Africa as well.
. . . or make a rope or gather the harvest for threshing. Monkeys could also have been around when Africa and South America first split. Birds and reptiles and insects should be common to both places.

 

AnnaG

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. . . or make a rope or gather the harvest for threshing. Monkeys could also have been around when Africa and South America first split. Birds and reptiles and insects should be common to both places.
ok I should have said "modern monkeys". Africa and South Am split about 150 million years ago. Undoubtedly some species share very close to the same DAN, but since the split, there will have been evolutionary changes. So ALL the monkeys in South Am would have either evolved there or transported there. Better?

And are you suggesting that monkeys and birds and insects built the stone head in that photo? It seems incongruent to the discussion.
 

Ludlow

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What I've always wondered and there is no answers I know, is this. Whatever killed off the dinosaurs would have done the same to primitive humans would it not? Off topic I know but was thinking about that with all this ancient talk.
 

AnnaG

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What I've always wondered and there is no answers I know, is this. Whatever killed off the dinosaurs would have done the same to primitive humans would it not? Off topic I know but was thinking about that with all this ancient talk.
Actually, no. What killed off the dinosaurs (and actually some descendants) still exist was their inability to adapt to the changes in environment fast enough. Most people get Darwin's theory wrong when they say the "survival of the strongest" or "survival of the fittest". It is actually the most adaptable.
 

bill barilko

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Mowich

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Actually, no. What killed off the dinosaurs (and actually some descendants) still exist was their inability to adapt to the changes in environment fast enough. Most people get Darwin's theory wrong when they say the "survival of the strongest" or "survival of the fittest". It is actually the most adaptable.

Horse Shoe Crabs and Crocs come to mind.
 

Ludlow

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I watched a documentary awhile back on the horse shoe crab. I guess they have something special in their blue blood that is valuable to the medical community. So they were being over harvested. Which in turn put the red knot bird in danger of extinction because they lived off of the eggs the crab would drop at their migration.