NDP Have BIG plans in BC again!!!

[OakServe]

RE: NDP Have BIG plans in

Thank you LadyC. Finally we make some headway. You hammered at me that it is not plausible to bill someone because they will simply not pay once they have left the country. But now that we are over that hump, you expect me to guarantee that each graduate gets a job in his field. My suggestion is that education will be free so long as you work in the province you were educated in. I never claimed to guarantee everyone a job in whatever field they take. If people are determined to be an astronomer and there are no jobs in astronomy available then they will just have to leave the province and pay off their debt. It's a choice they'll have to make when they are choosing their degree. It's up to grown adults to research their career path and ensure there is a demand in that career path before they choose to get a degree in it. If they do not then that is their lack of planning, not the governments. Next pitch please?

 

[LadyC]

What makes you think you've connected any I've thrown at you so far? At best you've had a foul tip.

Free education if you work in the province is a moot point. We're just going to go round in circles on that one. I tossed you a change-up with the job guarantee (the foul tip). Yes, students will have to do their research first... and most of the smarter ones will go to a university in a province (or State) where they're most likely to find work. I already mentioned that. Maybe you can explain how that will help the universities here in B.C.?

Of course, the other point (my curve ball, if you will) is that universities are not necessarily job training schools. They're for higher learning.

 

[LadyC]

You hammered at me that it is not plausible to bill someone because they will simply not pay once they have left the country.

I should point out that my main problem with this is the likelihood of getting the money. Can you garnishee wages for someone working outside the country?

 

[OakServe]

RE: NDP Have BIG plans in

We are already dealing with that in student loans are we not? However we collect student loans from those who leave the country is the same method we will apply in answering your question.

As for your other points, I agree that any smart student would target a province/state that has career oppurtunities in his pending field. But I do not see how this revelation undermines the benefits of what the green party proposes. Do I really have to explain the benefits? I think not. I think you are smart enough to piece them together. A province like B.C. has many, many needs, at the professional level and all other levels as well. Many graduates would stay in B.C. if they did not have to pay their educational fee. We would be retaining the best of our graduates this way, rather than losing them across any borders.

But seeing as your main problem is the 'likelihood of getting the money' from those who just take the education and then run, well if this is such a big concern to you why have we not seen a huge crisis in the student loan system? Why hasn't it failed due to thousands of exploitations where students obtain the loans then run to America?
Can you tell me why the green party proposition for education would be so much riskier than the existing student loan system?

 

[mrmom2]

All the partys will reach into your pocket and take your money :x No matter who wins we'll all lose :x The system is corrupted and broken.Vote STV Its the only way the system will ever change Thats why none of the politicians are talking about it .It would rock their world :wink:

 

[LadyC]

OakServe...

I'll explain this in the simplest terms possible.

If someone borrows money they usually have an intention to pay it back. Offer them a "free" education they likely won't take the attached strings too seriously until such a time that they can't find a job in their chosen field.

Do you have kids, Oak? Which do they take better care of.. the toys and clothes given to them or those they paid for themselves? It's like healthcare... it's "free" so we see people going to the doctor when they have a cold, and ERs clogged with people who can't be bothered to make an appointment with their doctor. "Free" systems are ripe for abuse.

I'd be interested to know how the Greens expect to pay for this "free" education. Corporate sponsorship? Or an increase in taxes?

 

[peapod]

:wav:
Oakserve your posts speak for alot of us in british columbia. You posts are inspiring

LadyC the emergency rooms are not filled with people who cannot be bothered to make an appointment with their doctor. Where do you get that idea from? Its simply not true. Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying. Education went up by 70 percent hardly what you can call a reasonable increase, more like highway robbery. The students I know, go to university, have students loans to pay back when they are finished, most also hold down part time jobs to help with living expenses. These people are asking for a free handout.

 

[LadyC]

I've sat in emerg and seen people come in with petty complaints. My sister is a nurse... she used to work in emerg... I listened to her. From her I also learned that some doctors basically use the ER as a private clinic... they can charge more plus they pay no overhead. Lots of corruption in the system. Our tax dollars at work.

70% pea? That would be a lot if it were an annual increase, but it wasn't, was it? Explain why B.C.'s universities are still among the most affordable in the country.

 

[no1important]

RE: NDP Have BIG plans in

Explain why B.C.'s universities are still among the most affordable in the country

That may be the case, but I know Quebecs tuition is a lot lower. But you forget we have the highest standard of living in BC.

 

[LadyC]

Tuition costs = apples
Standard of living = oranges.

I'm a little confused as to the point.

Quebec's tuition may be "a lot" lower, but still... ours is still less than the average.

 

[peapod]

Ladyc you might have a few people that use the emergency this way, but to say that the emergency room are full of people who could not be bothered to make a doctor's appointment is simply not true.
Don't forget that students still have to pay rent, buy food, and basic necessities like a phone. Victoria is a very expense place to live and so is Vancouver. And since the miminum wage has gone down, and everything else up and titution fees now up 70 percent. I think its a little more complicated than saying why should the government pay. The government operates on our tax dollars, so yes we do have a say in what we feel they should pay for.

 

[OakServe]

RE: NDP Have BIG plans in

Just like any legal agreement, they will be breaking the law if they do not pay. If they cannot find a job in their chosen field in BC, they have options. Begin payment of their Educational Debts and look elsewhere than BC for a job, or find different employment within BC then that of their field.

I don't see how this is any more abusable than the student loan system or any loans from institutions limited to Canada. When you pay for your education with student loans, most of the time you can keep taking more student loans until you are no longer in school. Once you are finished, you must pay the student loan off. But under this proposition, so long as you gain employment in BC, you will not have to pay it off.

This gives a huge incentive for our graduates and educated people to work in BC. Yes there are selfish people out there, but they are just as likely to steal a walkman from privately-owned future shop as they are to steal education from our universities. Both have laws in place to prevent it. All we can do is try to enforce it like anything else that is a law. Why dismiss the whole idea just because there are bad apples out there? If this is such a concern to you why do we not have a crisis of people taking student loans and then leaving the country rather than paying? I think it's an absurd proposition you are putting forth.

I'd be interested to know how the Greens expect to pay for this "free" education. Corporate sponsorship? Or an increase in taxes?

They had some good ideas, higher taxes on things like beer, smokes, junk food, gas, big business, the rich.

 

[LadyC]

Ladyc you might have a few people that use the emergency this way, but to say that the emergency room are full of people who could not be bothered to make a doctor's appointment is simply not true.
Don't forget that students still have to pay rent, buy food, and basic necessities like a phone. Victoria is a very expense place to live and so is Vancouver. And since the miminum wage has gone down, and everything else up and titution fees now up 70 percent. I think its a little more complicated than saying why should the government pay. The government operates on our tax dollars, so yes we do have a say in what we feel they should pay for.

I guess my sister was mistaken, then. I'll defer to your knowledge then. You DO work in emerg, right?

Minimum wage went down? I suppose you're referring to the training wage, so you're being a little misleading there.

And we've been over the 70% increase enough now that you should understand why the percentage is misleading.

 

[LadyC]

They had some good ideas, higher taxes on things like beer, smokes, junk food, gas, big business, the rich.

Oh... they have some good ideas. Phew! I feel relieved.

Tax beer and smokes... hurts the little guy.

Junk food... hurts the kids.

Gas... good. We're not paying enough as it is.

Big business and the rich... they're always fair game.

 

[OakServe]

RE: NDP Have BIG plans in

Beer and cigarettes never did a lick of good for anyone in the world... ever.
Denying children junk food... you think this is a bad idea?
Gas needs to be replaced with something that does not hurt the environment. It's about time we crack that industry and allow the clog in scientific advancement in the energy field to be removed. Plenty of viable alternatives that do not hurt the environment in such an extreme way.

Big business and the rich are definitely fair game. No reason for anyone to eat caviar if a single person is homeless in the entire nation.

 

[peapod]

LadyC perhaps your sister has run into people that use the emergency this way, this kind of thing happens in any system, heck even in the grocery lineup, how many people use the express line when the sign clearly says 8 items or less. I am simply saying that the majority of people using emergency are not using because they are to lazy to make an appointment with their family doctor.

 

[LadyC]

Oh, please. You think "rich people" don't deserve what they have? Sure, some inherited, but some got where they are through hard work.

I don't smoke, and I hardly drink. I was just using the arguments that are usually trotted out.

If I want to eat caviar I will... whether I can afford it or not.

 

[OakServe]

RE: NDP Have BIG plans in

If eating caviar is more important to you then saving someone from dying out on a street then we will just have to agree to disagree... If someone works really hard it does not necessarily mean he deserves the rewards. One can work very hard to hoard all the bread and milk and I would still demand that they share it, despite their admirable expenditure of effort.

 

[LadyC]

Thank you, OakServe. You told me all I need to know.

Keep cheering for the grasshoppers of the world. I prefer to be an ant.

 

[OakServe]

RE: NDP Have BIG plans in

And what the hell is that supposed to mean?