NDP could pull support for Liberal government over pharmacare, health care privatization: Singh (a new twist!)

The_Foxer

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So the ndp has been flailing around looking for SOMETHING that will make it look relevant and threatening to 'end the non coalition coalition', and it's gained very little ground for them. Now - they're trying a new spin and this one may have a little more pull. The idea of "privatization", like what doug ford is doing in Ottawa.

This could be a real big win/big loss situation. If it catches on and the public supports the ndp in this then trudeau's in a bad spot because he doesn't control what the provinces do, and if he threatens funding this could turn on him hard, but if he doesn't do something then he could lose power and the public might turn on him. On the flipside if the public doesn't rally Jaggers could look very weak and even have some blowback on his support in several provinces.

We'll see how hard they want to push this. IF they keep promising to hold support and yet never do they're going to pay for it eventually at the polls.
 
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Taxslave2

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Could be interesting. Everyone except perhaps a few of the diehard communists is aware that socialized medicine is not working.
maybe a poll in emerg is required. One question. Do you care in your care provider is a government employee or a private business as long as you are treated promptly??
 

The_Foxer

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Could be interesting. Everyone except perhaps a few of the diehard communists is aware that socialized medicine is not working.
maybe a poll in emerg is required. One question. Do you care in your care provider is a government employee or a private business as long as you are treated promptly??
LOL - i daresay the NDP won't be commissioning that poll anytime soon :)

But you're right, that's something that should be asked.
 

Ron in Regina

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So the ndp has been flailing around looking for SOMETHING that will make it look relevant and threatening to 'end the non coalition coalition', and it's gained very little ground for them. Now - they're trying a new spin and this one may have a little more pull. The idea of "privatization", like what doug ford is doing in Ottawa.

This could be a real big win/big loss situation. If it catches on and the public supports the ndp in this then trudeau's in a bad spot because he doesn't control what the provinces do, and if he threatens funding this could turn on him hard, but if he doesn't do something then he could lose power and the public might turn on him. On the flipside if the public doesn't rally Jaggers could look very weak and even have some blowback on his support in several provinces.

We'll see how hard they want to push this. IF they keep promising to hold support and yet never do they're going to pay for it eventually at the polls.
Meh…yeah, whatever.
 
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The_Foxer

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Meh…yeah, whatever.
There's truth to that, but jaggers knows it's all over if he actually goes to the polls with the coalition still intact. So sure, he'd like to keep it, but if he finds an issue that looks like he can actually increase his share of the vote with then he may well pull that card. He's tried a few things and each time it's nothing but crickets from 'supporters'. He'll keep pulling things until he finds something where his approval goes up and trudeau's goes down and that's what he'll go to the mat on. But if he truly waits too long.... every party that's the junior in a coalition that goes to the polls (or too close to the polls) gets their ass handed to them, and i think he's looking at this for a long term gig where he has to do nothing but rakes in the cash and has the power. And to keep that he's got to increase his seat count.
 

Ron in Regina

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There's truth to that, but jaggers knows it's all over if he actually goes to the polls with the coalition still intact. So sure, he'd like to keep it, but if he finds an issue that looks like he can actually increase his share of the vote with then he may well pull that card. He's tried a few things and each time it's nothing but crickets from 'supporters'. He'll keep pulling things until he finds something where his approval goes up and trudeau's goes down and that's what he'll go to the mat on. But if he truly waits too long.... every party that's the junior in a coalition that goes to the polls (or too close to the polls) gets their ass handed to them, and i think he's looking at this for a long term gig where he has to do nothing but rakes in the cash and has the power. And to keep that he's got to increase his seat count.
I hear you, but I think you nailed it in the first sentence:
There's truth to that, but jaggers knows it's all over if he actually goes to the polls…
That’s where you nail it.
…with the coalition still intact….
…& this part just keeps Jagmeet in the pension seat…so I could be wrong but the liberals could be sacrificing virgins to the green volcano and Jagmeet will make lots of noise (or not) and then back them regardless of what they’re doing.

The Non-Coalition Coalition that’s not a Coalition….it’ll squash the NDP seat count. The NDP will sit in the backseat with both Greens & whatever Maxine Bernier’s offshoot is called.

This next election, whenever it happens (in 2025 unless Justin decides otherwise) will be about how well the Bloc does in Quebec against the Liberals on one front with the Conservatives surprisingly getting a few seats there maybe, and just about the Conservatives vs Liberals for the rest of Canada.

Justin will dust off the old “Don’t split the vote with the NDP or else the evil will dominate” preaching. The Conservatives will point at the last decade of Liberal Reign with a “What the actual fuck Canada?” Campaign, & the other parties, including the NDP will just be like mosquitoes buzzing around. That’s it.

It will sound like this for that 60 days: “Guns are evil! Don’t look at Canada, but look south! Where do you stand on the settled argument about abortion that nobody will touch anyway? Do you actually have an opinion but you’re gonna not act on anyway? You’re evil and a threat! A vote for the NDP is a vote for the conservatives. Something something LGBTQ-Etc…Conservatives scary.”

Jagmeet in that campaign will hold what relevance? He has already fished with the “When I’m PM…” statement in Parliament times three to see what the reaction would be not in parliament, but in Canada as a whole, and it’s about the same.
“When I’m prime minister, I will keep my promises,” Singh exclaimed shortly after Trudeau concluded speaking, triggering a disruption of laughter, catcalls and guffaws that lasted nearly a full minute.

While Singh looked visibly affronted by the response, he was given a chance to repeat himself — which was met with a supportive standing ovation by his caucus-mates. He got derailed a second time, but on his third attempt — after another call for order from Rota — Singh was able to finish his question…by flipping it into a set up for Justin Trudeau, to make a point with a prepared sound-bite response…that was even actually responding to what Jagmeet said as opposed to the usual soundbites that have nothing to do with the question asked.

Singh was “challenging” the prime minister’s assertions that the deadlock between the federal government and the provinces was the fault of the premiers, who want more money from Ottawa to ease the backlogs. Good job Jagmeet, now go sit down until the Liberals call on you again.
 
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pgs

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I hear you, but I think you nailed it in the first sentence:

That’s where you nail it.

…& this part just keeps Jagmeet in the pension seat…so I could be wrong but the liberals could be sacrificing virgins to the green volcano and Jagmeet will make lots of noise (or not) and then back them regardless of what they’re doing.

The Non-Coalition Coalition that’s not a Coalition….it’ll squash the NDP seat count. The NDP will sit in the backseat with both Greens & whatever Maxine Bernier’s offshoot is called.

This next election, whenever it happens (in 2025 unless Justin decides otherwise) will be about how well the Bloc does in Quebec against the Liberals on one front with the Conservatives surprisingly getting a few seats there maybe, and just about the Conservatives vs Liberals for the rest of Canada.

Justin will dust off the old “Don’t split the vote with the NDP or else the evil will dominate” preaching. The Conservatives will point at the last decade of Liberal Reign with a “What the actual fuck Canada?” Campaign, & the other parties, including the NDP will just be like mosquitoes buzzing around. That’s it.

It will sound like this for that 60 days: “Guns are evil! Don’t look at Canada, but look south! Where do you stand on the settled argument about abortion that nobody will touch anyway? Do you actually have an opinion but you’re gonna not act on anyway? You’re evil and a threat! A vote for the NDP is a vote for the conservatives. Something something LGBTQ-Etc…Conservatives scary.”

Jagmeet in that campaign will hold what relevance? He has already fished with the “When I’m PM…” statement in Parliament times three to see what the reaction would be not in parliament, but in Canada as a whole, and it’s about the same.
“When I’m prime minister, I will keep my promises,” Singh exclaimed shortly after Trudeau concluded speaking, triggering a disruption of laughter, catcalls and guffaws that lasted nearly a full minute.

While Singh looked visibly affronted by the response, he was given a chance to repeat himself — which was met with a supportive standing ovation by his caucus-mates. He got derailed a second time, but on his third attempt — after another call for order from Rota — Singh was able to finish his question…by flipping it into a set up for Justin Trudeau, to make a point with a prepared sound-bite response…that was even actually responding to what Jagmeet said as opposed to the usual soundbites that have nothing to do with the question asked.

Singh was “challenging” the prime minister’s assertions that the deadlock between the federal government and the provinces was the fault of the premiers, who want more money from Ottawa to ease the backlogs. Good job Jagmeet, now go sit down until the Liberals call on you again.
And just think if he would have pulled the plug on Trudeau a year ago he would be comfortably living at Stornaway instead he will go down as another one hit wonder .
 

petros

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And just think if he would have pulled the plug on Trudeau a year ago he would be comfortably living at Stornaway instead he will go down as another one hit wonder .
NDP can't pull the plug until they have enough cash to run an election campaign.
 
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The_Foxer

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& this part just keeps Jagmeet in the pension seat…so I could be wrong but the liberals could be sacrificing virgins to the green volcano and Jagmeet will make lots of noise (or not) and then back them regardless of what they’re doing.
I can't say you're wrong with any degree of certainty. That may turn out to be entirely true. It depends on how bold he wants to be - play it safe and be guaranteed to be boss till the next election and let the chips fall where they may, or take a risk and maybe wind up gaining a few seats and hanging on for longer?

Hard to say. But realistically your scenario is more likely to be correct, with decreasing probability as time goes on. Next year he doesn't gain all that much even with a win, best he gets is two extra years. The year after that goes to three. The year after it goes to four. Then it's election time and no choice.

So - we'll see. I do believe if he sees a liberal collapse he might very well take a swing - those don't come along all the time and it's his only chance to try to steal liberal votes.
 
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pgs

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NDP can't pull the plug until they have enough cash to run an election campaign.
Now yes , but at the time he would have received much support from Canadians and with Liberals and Conservatives fighting the NDP could have pulled in a bunch of Liberal seats without a war chest . They certainly aren’t building the grassroots under the present strategy .
 

Ron in Regina

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So - we'll see. I do believe if he sees a liberal collapse he might very well take a swing - those don't come along all the time and it's his only chance to try to steal liberal votes.
I don’t think the NDP will steal any Liberal seats.
The Non-Coalition Coalition that’s not a Coalition….it’ll squash the NDP seat count. The NDP will sit in the backseat with both Greens & whatever Maxine Bernier’s offshoot is called.
Knowing how the Liberals will run their next campaign in 2025, the NDP will be decimated because why bother voting for the NDP directly as the Liberals half-assed adopted their platform anyway.
It will sound like this for that 60 days: “Guns are evil! Don’t look at Canada, but look south! Where do you stand on the settled argument about abortion that nobody will touch anyway? Do you actually have an opinion but you’re gonna not act on anyway? You’re evil and a threat! A vote for the NDP is a vote for the conservatives. Something something LGBTQ-Etc…Conservatives scary.”
Who knows? Maybe the six or eight seats the NDP get in 2025 might be the pivotal swing vote for the Liberals leading to a “Non-Coalition Coalition’s Coalition 2.0” for Jagmeet if he himself doesn’t lose his own riding…if that even matters…look at ‘What’s Her Pickle’ (?) that was sort’a the Green Leader for a while while never actually sitting in Parliament.
 

The_Foxer

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I don’t think the NDP will steal any Liberal seats.
Well they have before and they certainly can under the right conditions. If the liberal support collapses the NDP seat count traditionally goes up.

Knowing how the Liberals will run their next campaign in 2025, the NDP will be decimated because why bother voting for the NDP directly as the Liberals half-assed adopted their platform anyway.
that is the danger Jaggers faces. Add on to that "Besides - if we get a minority Jaggy is going to do what we say and form a coalition anyway so you might as well vote for us".

Jagmeet will want to combat that by saying "the liberals have utterly failed - give us as many seats as possible because it's likely going to be a conservative or liberal minority and WE will hold them to account.

BUt to do that he can't be seen as just Justin's butt boy right up until the election. At SOME point he's got to bail. And he's got to be the one to do it - not the libs.
Who knows?
In Canadian politics? Nobody :) That's the only one thing we DO know. You can never be sure whats' going to happen. We will see. But one thing is sure - even more than the conservatives by far the ndp and libs are looking for an opportunity to pull the plug when it will benefit them the most, i doubt either will want to go all the way to the next scheduled election date.
 

Ron in Regina

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I don’t think the NDP will steal any Liberal seats.
Well they have before and they certainly can under the right conditions. If the liberal support collapses the NDP seat count traditionally goes up.
Traditionally the Liberals are Liberals and not the NDP, but that’s not the case today.
Jagmeet will want to combat that by saying "the liberals have utterly failed - give us as many seats as possible because it's likely going to be a conservative or liberal minority and WE will hold them to account.
We, in describing the NDP portion of the NDP/Liberals…are part of the same thing. They have stopped even pretending to be different than each other since the lead up to the trucker convoy in Ottawa in February 2022…Jagmeet & Justin where already finishing each other’s sentences, then they came out of the closet. The Liberals ARE the NDP, and the NDP are a wing of the Liberals in all but name.

In 2015, the election that brought Trudeau to power, the Liberals took 6.9 million votes and 39.4% of the popular vote. That would drop to 6 million votes and 33% of the popular vote in 2019 and 5.5 million votes and 32.6% of the popular vote in 2021.

Right now, Trudeau is propped up by the NDP in a coalition in all but name with the Non-Coalition Coalition’s Coalition Supply Something-Something Agreement. Jagmeet Singh’s party has agreed to keep Trudeau in power through 2025 in exchange for some vague promises, like dental care, which Trudeau takes credit for and Singh gripes about on the sidelines.

Other than the odd red tie, what is it that separates Justin Trudeau from the New Democrats? It surely isn’t policy. What separates Jagmeet Singh from the Liberals? A odd Orange Turban? They’re the same except that NDP haven’t had the opportunity to be caught in the scandals, but only the opportunity to help the liberals bury them….

Since winning power in 2015, Trudeau has taken the federal Liberal Party further and further to the left, trying at times to outflank or take over the space occupied by the NDP.

The results have not been great for the Liberals, who have not found a way to actually overtake the NDP and have seen their own take of the popular vote drop.

Trudeau doesn’t want to seem like the moderate middle, he wants to seem like the NDP in a hurry.

Last week, Winnipeg City Councillor Sherri Rollins announced that she was running for the federal Liberal nomination in Winnipeg South Centre. Rollins wants to replace the recently passed MP Jim Carr but her entire donation history shows a preference for the New Democrats instead of the Liberals. Nothing to worry about for Trudeau.

This past week, he was campaigning in Saskatoon – an area with zero Liberal MPs – while in the presence of Saskatoon Mayor Charlie Clark. Trudeau made a point of putting out a media advisory that he would appear with Clark while not even telling Premier Scott Moe that he was coming to the province, a detail Moe learned from the media.

Clark clearly comes from the NDP side of the ledger, but Trudeau is also clearly courting him to run federally as a Liberal in the next election. To Trudeau, the Liberals are no longer a centrist party that steals from the other two parties, they are a “progressive” party that wants to overtake the NDP….because they are already the NDP/Liberals…so Jagmeet can hardly point the finger at Justin over policy…
 

The_Foxer

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Traditionally the Liberals are Liberals and not the NDP, but that’s not the case today.
Well you're not wrong of course, but it's not just about switching sides. There's a fair number of ridings where the ndp is a relatively close second to the libs and if the lib voters just don't show up in their usual numbers and the ndp vote is strong they can flip a riding pretty fast without anyone changing their party.

The Liberals ARE the NDP, and the NDP are a wing of the Liberals in all but name.
There is a strong argument to be made there, but regardless of the reality the ndp will definitely be trying to create the APPEARANCE to voters that this isn't correct.

The libs on the other hand will be saying "we really are the same so you might as well vote for us to stop the evil conservatives from eating your children".

Other than the odd red tie, what is it that separates Justin Trudeau from the New Democrats?
Charm. Mostly. I call it 'playing the hair card". And lets be honest, that's fading fast and people just don't find him that charming

But you're mostly correct - it's worth recalling that in 2015 the libs and dips were locked in the polls for most of that very long election. They didn't budge, both sitting about equal until mulcair made a mistake and justin moved up - then everyone flocked to the liberals. In other words, it's fair to say the voters really didn't care that much whether it was the libs or the dips who won - they would have backed either one, they just wanted to see who could beat Harper and whomever got the upper hand they went with.

To avoid that kind of thing moving forward and with so little daylight between them and the libs as you say, Jagmeet is going to be looking for that one big wedge issue that's got real traction that he can push between himself and the libs to attract voters to him and discourage liberals from voting while motivating his own voters.

If he finds one - or if the liberals look like they're collapsing in the polls - then he will move quickly to have an election. That's why he's trying out all these issues - he'll FIIIIGHT to hold them to dental.... no one cared. He'll FIIIIIGHTTT for housing... no one cared. Now he'll FIIIIIGGHHHT for healthcare - and SPECIFICALLY for preventing PRIVATE companies from participating in health care!!!! AARRRGGGGH - SOMEONE HAND ME MY BRASS KNUCKLES CAUSE WE'Z GONNA FIIIIIIIGGGHHHHTTT!!!

I dont' think this is going to be his issue to win on either. He's really struggling to find something to 'fight' for that will strongly resonate and differentiate himself from the feds. But i'm sure he'll keep trying.
 

Ron in Regina

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As long as he (NDP) keeps on squashing inquiries into liberal malfeasance, and scandals, and so on and so forth through the Non-Coalition Coalition’s Coalition…it all just doesn’t matter & the NDP stench is the same as the Liberals.

When he tries to differentiate the NDP from the Liberals….it’ll be too late. They won’t pass the smell test. They’re done. I’m guessing 8-10 seats for the NDP in 2025. Trudeau is not setting himself up to pull Quebec votes either…so who knows…

At this point I’m guessing Conservatives with Bloc opposition if you can imagine that scenario.
 

Taxslave2

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As long as he (NDP) keeps on squashing inquiries into liberal malfeasance, and scandals, and so on and so forth through the Non-Coalition Coalition’s Coalition…it all just doesn’t matter & the NDP stench is the same as the Liberals.

When he tries to differentiate the NDP from the Liberals….it’ll be too late. They won’t pass the smell test. They’re done. I’m guessing 8-10 seats for the NDP in 2025. Trudeau is not setting himself up to pull Quebec votes either…so who knows…

At this point I’m guessing Conservatives with Bloc opposition if you can imagine that scenario.
Seems to me the bloc has been official opposition before.
 

The_Foxer

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Well even when they weren't they've held the balance of power anyway. If the cpc and bloc together make a majority, then the CPC just has to have bloc support to get stuff passed. That's not that hard, tho it is often expensive