Nationalism vs Patriotism

[Vanni Fucci]

Re: RE: Nationalism vs Patriotism

By the way, Calberty, that comment of the old Polish guy on "uber alles" really gets to the pit of the matter. LOL !

Does it?

Considering that the words were first written nearly a hundred years before Germany invaded Poland, I fail to see the relevance...

 

[jimmoyer]

By the way, Vanni, your reference to Hegel
is priceless.

No history course is complete without the Hegelian
view of Dialectical Materialism, and the idea of
the dialectic of Thesis gives rise to an Anti-Thesis
which then combines to a Synthesis which then
becomes the new Thesis which then spawns the
whole cycle over again.

Which is why Police States creates Terrorism
and why Terrorism creates Police States and this
symbiosis of why a mountain needs a Valley and
a Thesis gives rise to the rebel Anti-thesis
gives you an extra Taoism dimension to every debate.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Re: RE: Nationalism vs Patriotism

Which is why Police States creates Terrorism
and why Terrorism creates Police States and this
symbiosis of why a mountain needs a Valley and
a Thesis gives rise to the rebel Anti-thesis
gives you an extra Taoism dimension to every debate.

I hope you're not inferring that the dialectic applies to naturally occurring phenomenon, Jimmy... 8O

 

[jimmoyer]

It is all organic, if it doesn't happen now, it will
happen later.

If you don't have a Bush now, you'll have someone
like him later.

We are, as your insurance company would be glad
to inform you, a percentage of a statistical bell curve.

It gets weirder than that,
but none of this thinking should ever eclipse
the absoluteness of moral rights and wrongs.

By the way, Vanni was that "old" Polish
guy from Koenigsburg ?

 

[Said1]

Suck it up sister, it was your choice to support the neocon bastards!!

I hope this was NOT directed at me.

As to the original question, I tend to think that nationalism has a far more Hegelian application than patriotism in that those that invoke nationalism do so to illicit a response, whereas patriotism can be practiced just for the sake of being a patriot and having pride in one's country's achievements.

Not so much a response, as an attitude, IMHO. Although the response is often required when a nation's territory is threatened.

 

[Curiosity]

The topic is excellent, the posts are as well, and I cannot add anything here but an offering I made on another forum this morning.

The exercise in semantics is way too personal - it is like trying to describe love and all its variations on the one basic gut theme we all recognize. There are huge differences and none at all depending upon the person and the year and hour of his/her life.

I only trust "the concept of" patriotism and national pride from a particular source these days. His name is Danjel Boot - a Captain in the National Guard who has been in Iraq over a year - newly married, almost has his Ph.D. (which is why he was in the Guard to help with his schooling). He has captured a year of experiences in his excellent writing. I have encouraged him to publish an expanded work of his blog when he is home which will be soon.

When I opened his blog this morning I had a shock...but my post tells it all. I hope some of you will take the time to read the most recent post "In Memory Of"...

Thunder6 is about to return home, but the killings continue and one DevilDog has not been lucky enough to board that final transport - he'll have a special journey home.

http://thunder6.typepad.com/365_arabian_ni.../in_memory.html

This morning I couldn't access Thunder's site - he hasn't been posting much lately because they are busy with insurgent ground attacks. I nearly lost it thinking it was him. He has been my connection to Iraq - his words have given me and so many of his fans a journey into hell so we know what hell is...what war is....and what human love is...even in the midst of hell.

The title of his last post is "In Memory" and it wouldn't open. I hadn't realized how this guy's writing has affected me over the past year - reading his daily work in Iraq and what it is like eating sand every day watching your front and back both...and losing friends...and being afraid to get close...and still getting close...

I guess attachments run deep when one is staring death in the face every day and mere mortals try to outwit that inevitable fate we all meet.

Well Done Thunder6.....I salute you and all your brothers and sisters in battle.

I believe Patriotism and Nationalism to be what the bearer wishes them to be - even to be abused as some see fit. Because the "backbone" of either word allows such rights.

I hope we never lose them.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Re: RE: Nationalism vs Patriotism

It is all organic, if it doesn't happen now, it will
happen later.

Thesis, antithesis and synthesis all are choices made and/or choices denied...

Choices are not made by any force in nature...

The yang does not choose to compliment the ying...

It is for the thesis, not the synthesis that the bastards must be held accountable...

As to your comment on Koenigsburg, or Królewiec if you will, you'll have to clarify just what the hell you're getting at...

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: Nationalism vs Patriotism

As to your comment on Koenigsburg, or Królewiec if you will, you'll have to clarify just what the hell you're getting at...

See that WC, it's not only me 8O :lol:

 

[Curiosity]

LOLOLOL ITN....

Owee that hurt my ribs hahaha...

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Suck it up sister, it was your choice to support the neocon bastards!!

I hope this was NOT directed at me.

No, it was directed at Jay, actually...

I don't think I've ever actually called you a neocon, although at times I may have thought it...:wink:

As to the original question, I tend to think that nationalism has a far more Hegelian application than patriotism in that those that invoke nationalism do so to illicit a response, whereas patriotism can be practiced just for the sake of being a patriot and having pride in one's country's achievements.

Not so much a response, as an attitude, IMHO. Although the response is often required when a nation's territory is threatened.

I think attitude is a big part of the response to which I was referring, but it could also manifest itself in the form of ones actions or system of beliefs...and people are so damn gullible, they're willing to believe anything... :roll:

 

[Curiosity]

Vanni Fucci

People are willing to believe anything...

I think we all have an well-developed system of denial as well.

People are more concerned with self-survival/comfort than anything lofty such as ideals.

The belief system works its way into rationalizing how "we wish" things to be in our world. That in itself is denial if we are wrong.

Then of course there are those who are never wrong.

I am one who is usually wrong.

 

[Said1]

[
No, it was directed at Jay, actually...

I don't think I've ever actually called you a neocon, although at times I may have thought it...:wink:

Just checking.

I think attitude is a big part of the response to which I was referring, but it could also manifest itself in the form of ones actions or system of beliefs...and people are so damn gullible, they're willing to believe anything... :roll:

LOL. Got ya.

 

[I think not]

I am one who is usually wrong.

Perhaps, but I least I can understand you all the time

 

[Curiosity]

ITN

You are kind - thanks!

 

[Kathianne]

Patriotism-love of country's ideals and values.'

Nationalism-Superiority of the inhabitants of the country, based on a superior people and past history.

 

[Said1]

Patriotism-love of country's ideals and values.'

Nationalism-Superiority of the inhabitants of the country, based on a superior people and past history.

Figures YOU would say that.

Man, I think I just set another record.

Who's the masochist now?

 

[I think not]

Me thinks Said1 knows something we don't? :wink:

 

[Said1]

Me thinks Said1 knows something we don't? :wink:

Yep. Welcome Kathianne. We're trying to avoid melt down elsewhere. We need to be pulled back from the proverbial edge, and fast!

I think Toro has had the pleasure of her aquaintence though. :lol:

 

[I think not]

Me thinks Said1 knows something we don't? :wink:

Yep. Welcome Kathianne. We're trying to avoid melt down elsewhere. We need to be pulled back from the proverbial edge, and fast!

I think Toro has had the pleasure of her aquaintence though. :lol:

Ooooo, gossip....do tell

 

[Said1]

RE: Nationalism vs Patrio

Let's just say a discussion on nationalsim between myself and a self-proclaimed nationalist-neocon it NOT a good idea. Anyone who would identify themselves as such has to give you an idea as to how things are going. We're on day three now.