Here you have to have the original birth certificate. She spent most of her grown up life trying to be certified.
Must Natives pay Taxes?
- Thread starter CDNBear
- Start date
Canada cannot legally require First Nations with treaty exemptions to pay taxes. But Canada is under no other obligations beyond treaty requirements.
Mohawks for example may have treaty rights which require the Canadian government to provide school teachers and nurses. Mohawks may have a legal right to raise a standing military. They certainly do have the right to move goods and services tax free between their territories in Canada and the US. At the time of that treaty, the British wanted Mohawk assistance putting down a terrorist revolt in their North American colonies. The Mohawks paid with blood to uphold their end of the treaty. We are obligated to hold up our end if even the terms are no longer convenient or make sense. Maybe our ancestors should have negotiated better.
But nothing in that treaty says Canada must provide social welfare or other forms of government assistance taken for granted by Canadian citizens. Clearly this relationship should be clarified by a new treaty.
Mohawks for example may have treaty rights which require the Canadian government to provide school teachers and nurses. Mohawks may have a legal right to raise a standing military. They certainly do have the right to move goods and services tax free between their territories in Canada and the US. At the time of that treaty, the British wanted Mohawk assistance putting down a terrorist revolt in their North American colonies. The Mohawks paid with blood to uphold their end of the treaty. We are obligated to hold up our end if even the terms are no longer convenient or make sense. Maybe our ancestors should have negotiated better.
But nothing in that treaty says Canada must provide social welfare or other forms of government assistance taken for granted by Canadian citizens. Clearly this relationship should be clarified by a new treaty.
Perhaps if we all just quit paying taxes the debt clock would come to an abrupt (or otherwise) "urrrch". Perhaps quit paying just the politicians' and bureaucrats' portions of the taxes?
So you are another one that would prefer to keep the land and consessions, and remove payment?
They would have to morally do that, if they wished to exit the treaty.
I try to be more optomistic then that, but I do have a headache.
self, I know some of the teachings of the Old ones, I have heard their words and seen the Great Spirit. I had my quest and know the Old ones, do not lie. But I do not believe the peace they preach, is about letting the Europeans of the hook for the treaties they signed and summariy broke or wish to break.
Can't argue with that, cept maybe you could stop calling the US terrorists, lol.
Hm, I like this idea.
No taxation without representation. No representation without taxation.
If you don't pay taxes to your federal, provincial and municiple levels then you should not be allowed to vote. If you don't vote don't bitch that a particular layer of government isn't living up to their obligations. If all you vote in is first nations council elections then limit your bitching to that particular layer of government.
If you don't pay taxes to your federal, provincial and municiple levels then you should not be allowed to vote. If you don't vote don't bitch that a particular layer of government isn't living up to their obligations. If all you vote in is first nations council elections then limit your bitching to that particular layer of government.
I dont want to turn this into a Spiritual walk BUT if we dont walk the talk how on earth will we recieve the fruits of what we believe in?
Well, without sounding pius, if we (as spiritual people) dont listen to our spiritual guides then what does that do to our accredidation? We as a people spout off pricipalities that we dont follow. That makes us hypocrites. I'll expand more but let me wake up a bit.
Its amazing how clear you think in the shower and then it all disapears.
Ok lets try this.
As a nation the Indian people have had very clear beliefs, very clear ways of life, based on nature and based on Spirit guides. Then forieners come to their land and force thier belief system and way of life on the Indians. Yes they fought for a bit but mostly they caved. Now, here we are hundreds of years later hiding our true beliefs in our Shamans, saying we are "christians" on the outside. We want our automity back BUT we want a hand out.
Our CORE beliefs are that of be strong, look inward to our strengths and KNOW the Spirits of the land. But we're broken, We've lost our roots of the oak and the red cedar. We've lost the path. In my opinion the tredies are already broken, the people that they were made with no longer exist. Those people hundreds of years ago no longer are around. Im not saying take away their land but its time to intragate (sp) into the nation that has grown. Give the nations a religious status but its time all the fractions become one.
You said you know the ways of the elders, youve heard their words. I too have listened. I too have learned. The message I took away from that tree was we are one. We ARE and WILL BE one nation on Turtle island. And as the oldest clan we must help. Now Im sounding a bit nuttier than usual but BE the change. BE the new world.
I hope you understood my meaning. I have trouble with type written words. But I am fluent in spirit.
Ok lets try this.
As a nation the Indian people have had very clear beliefs, very clear ways of life, based on nature and based on Spirit guides. Then forieners come to their land and force thier belief system and way of life on the Indians. Yes they fought for a bit but mostly they caved. Now, here we are hundreds of years later hiding our true beliefs in our Shamans, saying we are "christians" on the outside. We want our automity back BUT we want a hand out.
Our CORE beliefs are that of be strong, look inward to our strengths and KNOW the Spirits of the land. But we're broken, We've lost our roots of the oak and the red cedar. We've lost the path. In my opinion the tredies are already broken, the people that they were made with no longer exist. Those people hundreds of years ago no longer are around. Im not saying take away their land but its time to intragate (sp) into the nation that has grown. Give the nations a religious status but its time all the fractions become one.
You said you know the ways of the elders, youve heard their words. I too have listened. I too have learned. The message I took away from that tree was we are one. We ARE and WILL BE one nation on Turtle island. And as the oldest clan we must help. Now Im sounding a bit nuttier than usual but BE the change. BE the new world.
I hope you understood my meaning. I have trouble with type written words. But I am fluent in spirit.
Treaty rights and aherence to them
Treaties as any other contractual agreements must be respected.
The problem arises if the terms and fullfillments are changed as seen fit by political correct interpretations of the day.
I remember one particulal Treaty where the annual distribution was to include the amount to $5 per bandmember, a wool blanket and a medicine chest to the chief plus some other items.
Obvious the wellbeing of bandmembers was the consideration, drawing up a list of desireable things
any of those would appreciate to possess.
Our Government Dept. still hands out 5 bucks at Treaty day, the woolblankets have inflated to free housing where rent payments scheme are supposedly serve to maintain a cashflow to the Band Housing Dept. to facillitate the renovation and new construction of Reserve housing.
Needless to say that evictions don't take place even with rent collection close to zero; and this is not
caused by the lack of funds of house occupants either.
Not too many pay if not forced to do so; add the devalued attitude towards a house someone never had to contribute towards to and bingo the stories of abused and vandalised homes etc. in the news are just the tip of an growing iceberg.
Medicine chests are Medical Centeres, tens of thousands of dollars for airtravel from somewhere
up north to the next Med Center for treatement of trivial and serious ills.
Free unfettered selfregulated native fishing and now logging (New Bruinswick) means being lavishly outfitted by Governments with Gear and Stuff; after hawking away and misapprobiating funds much outcry in and outside the Reserve can be heard.
Hiring (nonnative) subcontractors to remove the last bit of resource and adding to the income coffers of some privileged Band members is gladly overlooked by DINA, and so ist the interesting black hole accounting technics of Band Admins.
If First Nation Treaties include all the Hunting, Fishing and Lumberneeds, then so be it.
But in the spirit of maintaining valuable Old Ways as the very Essence of the Existence of these Nations within the Canadian Nation, let the old ways go all the way; with bonehooks and sinew, Flintstone arrow points and stoneage tools and birchbark canoes and not Chainsaws, Trawlers and High Tech Gear.
I am aware of being called names for my point of view, but why should Taxpayers shoulder these
ever increasing costs . What ever lands have been taken away ages ago, Taxpayers like me, have not received any particular benefit from it.
I remember having paid for what I own, plus Mortgage payments and an never ending and increasing
demand of property taxes etc.
Like the infallability of the pope some things in History have to fall to the wayside and may be remembered only in Museen and Historybooks.
Not for the sake of Political Correctness but for the decent Survival of everyone including Natives.
Have a good one
Nelk
Treaties as any other contractual agreements must be respected.
The problem arises if the terms and fullfillments are changed as seen fit by political correct interpretations of the day.
I remember one particulal Treaty where the annual distribution was to include the amount to $5 per bandmember, a wool blanket and a medicine chest to the chief plus some other items.
Obvious the wellbeing of bandmembers was the consideration, drawing up a list of desireable things
any of those would appreciate to possess.
Our Government Dept. still hands out 5 bucks at Treaty day, the woolblankets have inflated to free housing where rent payments scheme are supposedly serve to maintain a cashflow to the Band Housing Dept. to facillitate the renovation and new construction of Reserve housing.
Needless to say that evictions don't take place even with rent collection close to zero; and this is not
caused by the lack of funds of house occupants either.
Not too many pay if not forced to do so; add the devalued attitude towards a house someone never had to contribute towards to and bingo the stories of abused and vandalised homes etc. in the news are just the tip of an growing iceberg.
Medicine chests are Medical Centeres, tens of thousands of dollars for airtravel from somewhere
up north to the next Med Center for treatement of trivial and serious ills.
Free unfettered selfregulated native fishing and now logging (New Bruinswick) means being lavishly outfitted by Governments with Gear and Stuff; after hawking away and misapprobiating funds much outcry in and outside the Reserve can be heard.
Hiring (nonnative) subcontractors to remove the last bit of resource and adding to the income coffers of some privileged Band members is gladly overlooked by DINA, and so ist the interesting black hole accounting technics of Band Admins.
If First Nation Treaties include all the Hunting, Fishing and Lumberneeds, then so be it.
But in the spirit of maintaining valuable Old Ways as the very Essence of the Existence of these Nations within the Canadian Nation, let the old ways go all the way; with bonehooks and sinew, Flintstone arrow points and stoneage tools and birchbark canoes and not Chainsaws, Trawlers and High Tech Gear.
I am aware of being called names for my point of view, but why should Taxpayers shoulder these
ever increasing costs . What ever lands have been taken away ages ago, Taxpayers like me, have not received any particular benefit from it.
I remember having paid for what I own, plus Mortgage payments and an never ending and increasing
demand of property taxes etc.
Like the infallability of the pope some things in History have to fall to the wayside and may be remembered only in Museen and Historybooks.
Not for the sake of Political Correctness but for the decent Survival of everyone including Natives.
Have a good one
Nelk
Hmmmmmm. I've known Ojibwa, Dene, Tlingit, Cree, Okanagan, etc. and they all had different beliefs when I knew them. Also, each one of them thought of themselves as their own nation. (Sorry bout that but I got curious).
Anyway, I think we each can do as Self says, hang onto our beliefs, practise our ways, etc. yet still live in the same society as one people. Actually as far as that goes, I think we should each be able to do whatever we want as long as it doesn't have any negative effect on anyone else.
As far as treaties go, they are old, written and agreed to by people long dead, have not changed with the passage of time, etc. If there are treaties needed, write new ones for these times. Hell's bells, the gov't isn't even the same gov't as it was back then. Back then it used to show some progression. These days all it seems to show is regression.
Can't argue with the bulk of your post.
For the most part, can't dissagree with you either.
I may be off topic a bit here, but the image of Natives being duped out of their land is a bad one, and wrong. Natives fought hard against Europeans, where skilled in the art of war, and were not as naive as some would think. They signed treaties and where then treated unfairly for years to come. They were sometimes forced to give up there beliefs and Native status if they wanted to vote. Things have changed.
I think we've made some progress, and we can revisit old treaties too. Times change and hopefully Canada will change for the better. Do Natives want to fully integrate into Canadian society? Do they see themselves as Canadians? Perhaps a Native should be head of Indian and northern affairs Canada.
I think we've made some progress, and we can revisit old treaties too. Times change and hopefully Canada will change for the better. Do Natives want to fully integrate into Canadian society? Do they see themselves as Canadians? Perhaps a Native should be head of Indian and northern affairs Canada.
Good post Gonzo.
To answer your questions, from my perspective.
Natives wish to be involved and participate fully with Canadian society, but maintian their unique status without having it eroded.
I myself am a Citizen of North America, but I am 100% Canadian, born and bred. I'm not alone in that either.
Not yet, as much as it pains me to say it, we do not have a National leader that is, in my mind, fully representing all his peoples, so I'm not sure where we would find one that could be a Federal representitive, that will not merely use the position to further his/her own agenda.
I like the way nelk put it. "The problem arises if the terms and fullfillments are changed as seen fit by political correct interpretations of the day."
If you want to fight to enforce treaty obligations you may get $5 and a new blanket each year. I would think it makes more sense to focus on a better life for the next generation and if integrating into Canadian society and paying taxes is the price of that, I personally wouldn't have to think too hard about it.
Everytime I try to drive my car by looking only through the rear-view mirror, I crash it. If I keep looking forward to see where I'm going and occassionally look backwards to remember where I've been I have more success.
What's so hard about this? No, Natives do not have to pay taxes under certain conditions as laid out in the treaties and subject to judicial interpretation. If those conditions don't apply, then yes they do have to pay taxes, again subject to judicial interpretation. Doesn't matter whether you think it's right or just or anything else, it's what the law says that matters, and treaties are part of the law of the land. If you don't like that, get involved in trying to change the laws.
I agree with you 100% that "if you can afford to buy the land then please do so, and if you can't then you are not going to get it for free".
The difference is that I think this applies to the current dwellers on the land and the current Government, who may have to give the land back to the Natives.
I don't think you're very clear on the reason for the tax-exempt status and the history of land issues. You might want to brush up on that before you start spouting off.
OK, so Aboriginals get land. What will they do with it? This is not 1800, so how will you earn a living? Do you expect the government to loan you, or rather give you money to build on it? Hell no! So much talk about land, but nothing about what would be done with it.