MPs vote to give asylum to U.S. deserters, Tories say no

[Scott Free]

Gee Whiz!

Think of it!

If the Global Elite were unable to wage war.....we could all wear jack boots, speak German, and kill Jews!

Or speak Russian, and live in the socialist paradise, as exemplified by the old USSR!

Or live under Sharia law...........

There are things worse than war.

And when you speak of people that don't understand freedom, look in the freaking mirror!

You can't distinquish a difference between a totaltarian communist state and a constitutional democracy......and you claim to be older than 16!

GEEZ! You're exactly who I need lecturing me on the concept of liberty (shakes head)

Why would you assume we are the good guys? There are plenty of people that would inform you otherwise complete with evidence.

The fact that we won just means things are different not better. That's all.

Since your white and uptight you think your on the side of right. In reality your just on the side your familiar with.

 

[Colpy]

Why would you assume we are the good guys? There are plenty of people that would inform you otherwise complete with evidence.

The fact that we won just means things are different not better. That's all.

Since your white and uptight you think your on the side of right. In reality your just on the side your familiar with.

No, I am right.

Western civilization is at the absolute apex of human development. Never before have so many been so rich and so free...........unfortunately, we seem to be slipping.

That power should slip to the east is not surprizing.....they have the population, and they have gained the technology created by people living in societies that encourage individual enterprize and freedom of thought.

That we should allow our liberty to slip under the waves of paranoia in the west is unacceptable.....that we should cut its throat to appease those incapable of tolerance is incomprehensible.......that we refuse to defend its superiority to other societies is defeatist........that many of us do not wish to defend it is suicidal.

The good guys? Well, we have been the good guys......we have also been the worst of the worst.......but on balance, we're a hell a a long way ahead of whomever is in second place.

Human society was violent, is violent, will always be violent. Human social development has always risen from clash after clash, Sparta vs Athens, Rome vs Carthage, Christianity vs Islam, Catholic vs Protestant.....nasty bloody outrageous unjust butchery is the language of our past...........no doubt about it.

But rolling over, jamming our heads into the sand, and refusing to face up to the threats to what we have won....or refusing to acknowledge that we have gained anything worth fighting for, is simply ignorant......literally. It displays a cavalier disregard for our history, and a disturbing tendency to offer our throats to the knife........so to speak.

My, that was a rant, wasn't it?



BTW, I AM right.

Self-doubt leads to disaster.

 

[Scott Free]

No, I am right.

Western civilization is at the absolute apex of human development. Never before have so many been so rich and so free...........

Sure, and never before have so many been so poor but then they are required aren't they? So we can be rich ;-)

That power should slip to the east is not surprizing.....they have the population, and they have gained the technology created by people living in societies that encourage individual enterprize and freedom of thought.

They have a superior political system is all.

That we should allow our liberty to slip under the waves of paranoia in the west is unacceptable.....that we should cut its throat to appease those incapable of tolerance is incomprehensible.......that we refuse to defend its superiority to other societies is defeatist........that many of us do not wish to defend it is suicidal.

Freedom for us; we keep much of the world under our boot.

The good guys? Well, we have been the good guys......we have also been the worst of the worst.......but on balance, we're a hell a a long way ahead of whomever is in second place.

That is only opinion.

Human society was violent, is violent, will always be violent. Human social development has always risen from clash after clash, Sparta vs Athens, Rome vs Carthage, Christianity vs Islam, Catholic vs Protestant.....nasty bloody outrageous unjust butchery is the language of our past...........no doubt about it.

That was my point. There is no good side - there never is a good side. There is only a side you like better.

But rolling over, jamming our heads into the sand, and refusing to face up to the threats to what we have won....or refusing to acknowledge that we have gained anything worth fighting for, is simply ignorant......literally. It displays a cavalier disregard for our history, and a disturbing tendency to offer our throats to the knife........so to speak.

On this I agree with you.

My, that was a rant, wasn't it?



BTW, I AM right.

Self-doubt leads to disaster.

Yeah, I've been known to rant once in a while myself. :lol:

 

[MikeyDB]

Colpy wants desperately to believe what he's saying. I understand that. The fact that many prosper while we support sweatshops and slave-labour in other nations doesn't factor into Colpy's "reality". A "Conservative" wants their dreamscape to be real and will warp reality to fit the description.

It's too bad that Colpy hasn't had the opportunity to be present first hand as children come running out of straw hooches on fire..... It's too bad that Colpy hasn't smelled the sewage flowing in the streets of many nations who fail their people but suppor North American economic policies....

Perhaps Colpy believes that Canada and the United States are the only civilizations on this planet!

 

[wallyj]

The U.S. is such a terrible place to live,that it is the country that most people want to emigrate. I don't hear of many mothers floating their children out on inner tubes trying to reach Cuba. I don't hear of too many people selling everything to go live in an islamic paradise. But back on topic,it is an offence to sign up to the armed forces and then desert. It is a personal breach of contract. I say ship them back,deal with their problem,and then if they want to come up here,go through the immigration line like everybody else. You should not jump to the front of the line because you are either too stupid or too cowardly to fulfill an obligation that you VOLUNTARILY committed yourself. These people are not my idea of a desirable immigrant.

 

[L Gilbert]

I think some of you are forgetting that a lot of these people were kids when they signed up and had a very subjective and narrow view of life. So it's easy to tell them things and fill them with all kinds of thoughts that they are doing good. Then when they are directed to level a building because the CIA told their brass it is filled with nasties they do it but find out later it was kids and old people or something. I wouldn't stay in the force either.
I personally know one pilot who was ordered to blow up a particular building because it was a HQ for nasties, and she found out later it was a school. Nice, huh?

 

[wallyj]

I think some of you are forgetting that a lot of these people were kids when they signed up and had a very subjective and narrow view of life. So it's easy to tell them things and fill them with all kinds of thoughts that they are doing good. Then when they are directed to level a building because the CIA told their brass it is filled with nasties they do it but find out later it was kids and old people or something. I wouldn't stay in the force either.
I personally know one pilot who was ordered to blow up a particular building because it was a HQ for nasties, and she found out later it was a school. Nice, huh?

Damn those neo-cons,signing up children for the war,just like the people they are fighting.!!! But no.you have to be an adult,18 years of age,to sign up. The 2 cowards that wanted to take their case to the supremes are aged 26 and 20. Next emotional,but deluded argument, please.

 

[L Gilbert]

Damn those neo-cons,signing up children for the war,just like the people they are fighting.!!! But no.you have to be an adult,18 years of age,to sign up. The 2 cowards that wanted to take their case to the supremes are aged 26 and 20. Next emotional,but deluded argument, please.

I haven't seen very many kids in their 20s that were grown up, let alone 18 yr olds. As for your two specific examples, I don't know anything about them. Whether someone is grown up in the legal context or grown up in the context of worldly wisdom and maturity are two different things.
You are telling me that you were never deceived in your younger years?
Sorry to let down your pompous opinion of me, pilgrim, but I was not very emotional when I posted that. I was simply relating info.

 

[L Gilbert]

Um, the CIA convinced Reagan there was a viable reason to be in El Salvador.
The CIA convinced Bush that there were WMDs in Iraq a few years ago.
Presidents are military chiefs in control of large amounts of young people.
Military brass uses a variety of psychological methods to convince young people to do what the brass wants including deception.

Get the idea yet?

 

[wallyj]

I haven't seen very many kids in their 20s that were grown up, let alone 18 yr olds. As for your two specific examples, I don't know anything about them. Whether someone is grown up in the legal context or grown up in the context of worldly wisdom and maturity are two different things.
You are telling me that you were never deceived in your younger years?
Sorry to let down your pompous opinion of me, pilgrim, but I was not very emotional when I posted that. I was simply relating info.

Their names are Hinzman and Hughey. They are the deserters who wanted to take their right to stay in Canada to the Supreme court. They are the deserters that this thread is all about. Of course I was decieved in my younger years,mostly by vixens,but I took my lumps and moved on.As for the emotional part,why did you include some sappy story about bombing a schoolhouse,which is totally unrelated,unless you are playing to people's emotions. Would you like to talk about a certain group of 'fighting men' who strap explosives to downs syndrome children and then blow them up by remote control when they reach the centre of a market?

 

[MikeyDB]

WallyJ

Yes, they share something in common with the man who drops a payload of high explosives from twenty thousand feet on a population of people who've never done anything wrong to America..... They share the fact that seldom will they ever see the blood and carnage they've unleased. Other than that...they're the same.

 

[L Gilbert]

Their names are Hinzman and Hughey. They are the deserters who wanted to take their right to stay in Canada to the Supreme court. They are the deserters that this thread is all about. Of course I was decieved in my younger years,mostly by vixens,but I took my lumps and moved on.As for the emotional part,why did you include some sappy story about bombing a schoolhouse,which is totally unrelated,unless you are playing to people's emotions. Would you like to talk about a certain group of 'fighting men' who strap explosives to downs syndrome children and then blow them up by remote control when they reach the centre of a market?

Apparently, you missed my point. I relayed a couple stories which pointed to why there are deserters and why they may have reason to desert. And you say that is unrelated? I offer my apologies (with a shipload of sarcasm. hehehe)
Also apparently, you mistake my info about certain militaries as being a stand against them specifically. I have no intention of taking any other side than that for life in general. I think killing for the most part is simply stupid and wasteful.
Besides that, the CIC allows some people that are extremely foul to stay in Canada and yet turf out good, hard working individuals because their visas ran out. Why not allow some relatively law abiding deserters stay? I think they should throw the rapists, murderers, scam artists out that are here illegally instead.

 

[Zzarchov]

"You swore you'd jump into a stream of bullets to protect your nation, and now you are fleeing rather than standing up to the government you think is evil?"


That's just it: they were not fighting for the USA nor is the present government in Baghdad evil. They were fighting for Bush's imperialistic war of aggression against Iraq.

No, they weren't fighting at all.

There are really two options here: Either they think the war is in America's best interest and they can fight in Baghdad.

Or they thing the war is not in America's best interest and they can't stand up to their domestic government and make a stand on behalf of the American people.

Running away to another country in fear is not an option for a soldier.

 

[gopher]

"Running away to another country in fear is not an option for a soldier. "


The Nuremburg tribunal may have said something quite different about that.

 

[Zzarchov]

"Running away to another country in fear is not an option for a soldier. "


The Nuremburg tribunal may have said something quite different about that.

No, it didn't.

It said following orders is not an excuse. Nor have I claimed it is.

In fact I said quite clearly that if the soldier does believe his order to be against the best interests of his nation, he needs to take a stand against it.

Fleeing to another country rather than staying in America and taking a stand is not disobeying an illegal order.

If anything beyond cowardice its tactic support of that order.

If you truly believe the order is illegal, then you need to try and make your country better and stand up for the nation you swore to protect.

And that will probably involve being thrown in jail.