More young doctors oppose abortions on ethical grounds
- Thread starter sanctus
- Start date
The "partial birth" abortion ban was just upheld by the supreme court, without any exceptions for the mother's health. This procedure was exceedingly rare to begin with, but is occasionally thought to be necessary by doctors. It's actual name is intact dilatation and evacuation, "partial birth" has no real meaning in the medical community. It is intended to be used in the middle to late 2nd trimestre. (That's pre-viability).
It scares me that the government wouldn't make any exception for the woman's health because other methods are not always possible or as safe.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/04/18/scotus.abortion/index.html
......
Three federal appeals courts had ruled against the government, saying the federal Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003 is unconstitutional because it does not provide a "health exception" for pregnant women facing a medical emergency. The outcome of this latest challenge before the court's new ideological makeup could turn on the legal weight given past rulings on the health exception.
In states where such exceptions are allowed, the lists of possible health risks include severe blood loss, damage to vital organs and loss of fertility. Court briefs noted pregnant women having the procedure most often have their health threatened by cancer, heart disease, high blood pressure or risk of stroke. Doctors are given the discretion to recommend when the late-term procedure should be performed.
The federal law has never gone into effect, pending the outcome of nearly three years of legal appeals.
Specifically, the ban encompasses what doctors call "intact dilation and evacuation" (also known as IDX), which Congress in its legislation termed inhumane.
It is a rarely used second-trimester procedure, designed to reduce complications to the woman. More common is "dilation and evacuation" (D&E), used in 95 percent of pre-viability second-trimester abortions, according to Planned Parenthood. Both are generally performed after the 21st week of pregnancy.
A major part of the legal dispute was whether the federal ban also includes the relatively more common "standard D&E abortions." The government contends the law does not, and is sufficiently narrow not to place an "undue burden" on a woman's reproductive choices.
..............
To my understanding, partial birth abortion refers to anytime a fetus is removed from the womb intact. Some people apply it to the removal of fetuses which have died of natural causes in the womb, as well as to live fetuses that are partially extracted and terminated.
I don't know of anyone that objects to its use for the removal of dead fetuses. But, partially birthing a fetus at a stage where it can legally be considered viable (20-23 weeks or later), and terminating it before the head can be born, is what gets so many people up in arms. I have my views on it, but they would not be popular here, and I know from my personal past experience that it is not an area where I welcome debate or discourse. But I do recommend to others, that they research it, and consider very thoroughly the true need for it as it applies to those fetuses which could have lived outside of the womb by the point at which they were terminated.
I don't want to nitpick, but babies are considered viable at 23 weeks, and even then we'd allow parents to say if they didn't want aggressive measures because our outcomes for those kids are so poor. Any doctor that's trying to rescucitate before that.... well, I'd probably be banned if I used the language that comes to mind when I think of it. Suffice it to say, I don't believe they are acting in the baby's best interests at all.
Here is a pretty good discussion of the procedure, with specific details as to what it entails:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dilation_and_extraction
It's hard for me to understand those who are opposed to this procedure, but not the more common D&E.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dilation_and_extraction
It's hard for me to understand those who are opposed to this procedure, but not the more common D&E.
Well, to nitpick further, there's a difference between offering parents the option to not intervene, and the option of partial birth termination. That being said, I'll politely bow out, and leave it to Tonington to come to his own opinion on the matter.
Didn't mean to offend, I really enjoy your posts and respect your views. I just don't want anyone to think 20-22 weekers are viable. If viability is something people use to decide when abortions are ok, it's an important distinction. Some politicians are framing this procedure as though these babies would be alive if we only gave them medical attention at their birth, when that isn't the case if it's done at 22 weeks or earlier.
According to polls some 75% of Americans support banning this procedure. I don't know why D&Es don't receive the same attention. The only difference between them is that "partial birth" abortions result in a more intact fetus at the end. For parents grieving over a wanted baby, that can be an important difference.
You hadn't offended Tracy, I've just hit the point where I know myself well enough to not be able to discuss it anymore. I don't often get emotionally and physically upset over discussions, but when it comes to abortion, I walk a fine line, and have to be constantly aware of where I'm stepping. Especially getting into partial birth, it becomes a bigger and bigger struggle to remain logical and rational about it, and so I'm just going to bow out. Coward's way perhaps, but there it is.
Oh, company's here for coffee... have a good day.
Oh, company's here for coffee... have a good day.
Sorry, but I'm still a little befuddled. Partial-birth abortion covers both IDX and IDE? I do find it odd that previous decisions would have allowed for the health of the pregnant mother to be a determining factor, but seemingly not in this case.
The government seems to be saying IDX is the only thing that's being banned. D&Es are not banned.
The difference between a D&E and an IDX is that in a D&E the fetus is separated into pieces in the uterus, then those individual pieces are removed. For an IDX, the fetus' body is delivered feet first out of the uterus, then the skull is collapsed allowing it to be delivered. So, the fetus is basically intact at the end instead of in pieces. This is pretty gruesome to consider, I realize but I can see why someone would choose that option over the others.
My personal experiences with late terminations have all been for severe health issues on non-viable fetuses. I haven't seen an IDX before. I have seen D&Es and I have seen induction of labor and c-sections used to abort as well. Inductions, if they work at all, which they sometimes don't, can be very lengthy and painful. If a woman doesn't want to go through all of that, I don't think she should have to. It seems cruel to force her to go through a labor that should result in a live happy baby when she is going to deliver a dying one. C-sections are the same in that respect, plus it's major surgery which carries major risks and long term consequences, such as possibly preventing a woman from ever being able to give birth vaginally. This is especially true if a fetus has severe hydrocephalus. They can have heads three times as big as a normal fetus. That means a vaginal delivery isn't necessarily possible so inductions are out and a c-section would require a much bigger incision than normal which poses more risks.
Those women could have a D&E which would allow them to avoid a c-section or an induction, but then they can't really grieve over their baby's body if they wanted to because it would be in pieces. With an IDX, they could. I know some people consider it gross, but many families want to hold their dead baby, look at it, have pictures taken and say goodbye. Even if families don't want to see their dead baby, if we have an intact body we will take pictures and make a memory box which we keep in case the parents ever change their minds and want to see what their baby looked like. We take footprints, handprints, pictures, write a nice note, take a lock of hair if possible... We treat them the same as if they were to be born alive and die later because those families grieve just as much.
