More "friendly fire"

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
848
113
70
Saint John, N.B.
Dexter Sinister said:
Check this out: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/08/07/ING95E1VQ51.DTL

In particular, here's a key paragraph from it: "Army historians have estimated ground casualties from friendly fire in World War II, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War at approximately 2 percent, while they soared to 17 percent during the 1991 Gulf War."

Doesn't look like high tech helps in that department.

Edited to add this: that's specifically the U.S. Army it's referring to. I didn't find anything in a quick search about other forces.

What you are missing is the fact that Americans lost 150 soldiers in the first Gulf war.........and killed 100,000 PLUS Iraqi soldiers.

Practically all from the air.

Imagine how many allied casualties there would have been if that massive air power had not been used, and the PBI (poor bloody infantry) had to dig the Iraqis out one by one.......

The stats are misleading, to say the least....
 

hermanntrude

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jun 23, 2006
7,267
118
63
46
Newfoundland!
not sureif there are any stats on this but it seems to me (although i am well aware that this may be planted in my head by various media), that more incidents of "friendly fire" or as I prefer to call it "killing the your so-called allies because you're dumb" caused by americans than by any other country. Maybe the training of US army men needs to be looked into. obviously they're a great fighting force but maybe they just need a little refinement
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
What you are missing is the fact that Americans lost 150 soldiers in the first Gulf war.........and killed 100,000 PLUS Iraqi soldiers.

Practically all from the air.

Imagine how many allied casualties there would have been if that massive air power had not been used, and the PBI (poor bloody infantry) had to dig the Iraqis out one by one.......

The stats are misleading, to say the least

The American Modus operandi is to bomb every square foot of ground three times before the army puts a boot on it. If they killed a hundred thousand Iraqi soldiers, they probably killed twice that many civilians. Is there any honour in that? None that I can see.

That disgusting display on the so-called highway of death in "desert storm" was complete, unnecessary, murder, and I'm sorry to say Canada took part in it as well.

Does anyone, including Americans, think the invasion of Iraq was successful? The civil war that everyone warned about shows no sign of slowing down. It is quite clear that Iraq, as a country is finished. That war was started on lies and Bush lies about it every time he opens his mouth.
 

athabaska

Electoral Member
Dec 26, 2005
313
0
16
#juan said:
What you are missing is the fact that Americans lost 150 soldiers in the first Gulf war.........and killed 100,000 PLUS Iraqi soldiers.

Practically all from the air.

Imagine how many allied casualties there would have been if that massive air power had not been used, and the PBI (poor bloody infantry) had to dig the Iraqis out one by one.......

The stats are misleading, to say the least

The American Modus operandi is to bomb every square foot of ground three times before the army puts a boot on it. If they killed a hundred thousand Iraqi soldiers, they probably killed twice that many civilians. Is there any honour in that? None that I can see.

That disgusting display on the so-called highway of death in "desert storm" was complete, unnecessary, murder, and I'm sorry to say Canada took part in it as well.

Does anyone, including Americans, think the invasion of Iraq was successful? The civil war that everyone warned about shows no sign of slowing down. It is quite clear that Iraq, as a country is finished. That war was started on lies and Bush lies about it every time he opens his mouth.

You have a naive view of war. Canadians were part of similar events in WW2. One doesn't send in one's ground troops before destroying everything in their path. Even then, tens of thousands of Canadian infantry and others were killed The surviving troops were Canadian vets who live in your town and tens of thosuands of those survivors would have been added to the casualty list if we didn't try and destroy the enemy with as much force as possible.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
You have a naive view of war. Canadians were part of similar events in WW2. One doesn't send in one's ground troops before destroying everything in their path. Even then, tens of thousands of Canadian infantry and others were killed The surviving troops were Canadian vets who live in your town and tens of thosuands of those survivors would have been added to the casualty list if we didn't try and destroy the enemy with as much force as possibl

Don't try to tell me about war.. I flew fighter aircraft in the RCAF back in the fifties and sixties. At that time there were still people in the service who had fought in WW2 and we talked about it all the time. Canadian soldiers, after D-day, rarely had the benefit of massive air strikes and that is a fact. Do you think that the Canadian forces who pushed their way into Belgium and Holland had the airforce working ahead of them all the way? Not likely. They had their own artillery to soften up hard pockets of resistance here and there.

The Illegal invasion of Iraq and the so-called "operation Iraq Freedom" cannot be compared with WW2. The Iraq war has been one cock-up after another, and I sure as hell would not compare it to anything Canadian soldiers did in WW2.
 

athabaska

Electoral Member
Dec 26, 2005
313
0
16
You're full of baloney. The biggest bullshitter on this forum spouting your phony military service. Your knowledge of the military is non-existant. You have this T.V. image of two groups of fellows shooting at each other across an open field.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
848
113
70
Saint John, N.B.
#juan said:
What you are missing is the fact that Americans lost 150 soldiers in the first Gulf war.........and killed 100,000 PLUS Iraqi soldiers.

Practically all from the air.

Imagine how many allied casualties there would have been if that massive air power had not been used, and the PBI (poor bloody infantry) had to dig the Iraqis out one by one.......

The stats are misleading, to say the least

The American Modus operandi is to bomb every square foot of ground three times before the army puts a boot on it. If they killed a hundred thousand Iraqi soldiers, they probably killed twice that many civilians. Is there any honour in that? None that I can see.

That disgusting display on the so-called highway of death in "desert storm" was complete, unnecessary, murder, and I'm sorry to say Canada took part in it as well.

Does anyone, including Americans, think the invasion of Iraq was successful? The civil war that everyone warned about shows no sign of slowing down. It is quite clear that Iraq, as a country is finished. That war was started on lies and Bush lies about it every time he opens his mouth.

You're right about US MO, but I don't think the Yanks killed many civilians bombing the Iraqi Army in the desert during GW1. AND, if it saves allied lives, why not bomb military targets into fragments?

I think you are engaging in a little 20/20 hindsight over the "highway of death" incident. At the time, we were still engaged in combat, the "conventional wisdom" was (correct me if I'm wrong) that we were going to invade Iraq proper.

Why would we allow the Iraqi Army to escape Kuwait intact, only to turn on us later? Doesn't make sense.

As for the Iraqi thing, it IS a damned mess. I don't know how all out civil war will be avoided. At this point though, all the Yanks can do is soldier on.
 

Hotshot

Electoral Member
May 31, 2006
330
0
16
Re: RE: More "friendly fire"

Lineman said:
So you still didn't answer Hotshot, how will you blame the Americans if it's found it was a Canadian error or a combination of both?

If it is proven (and I don't mean by yankee propaganda) that it was the Canadians who were at fault, then of course I will not blame the Yankees. I am not like the Yankees who would blame anyone to get themselves off the hook.
 

unclepercy

Electoral Member
Jun 4, 2005
821
15
18
Baja Canada
Re: RE: More "friendly fire"

Hotshot said:
Lineman said:
Just curious Hotshot but how will you blame the Americans if it's found it was a Canadian error? You have No idea what you're talking about. You're answer to everything is "blame the Americans!" It's WAR, it's being fought by humans, and errors will be made by all sides, very unfortunate, but inevitable.

First, it is the yankees fault that we are there in the first place in case you have forgotten. It they weren't so damn arrogant in the first place, the rest of the world wouldn't hate them and 9-11 wouldn't have happened.

In the previous case, the yankees were definitely in the wrong, but they wormed their way out of accepting responsibility.

In this case the Canadians were just waking up for crying out loud. The damn yanks were just trigger happy.

Canada and NATO should just pull out and leave the yanks alone with their butts hanging out.

FIRST, don't call me a damned Yankee. Second, the rest of the world does not hate us. Third, aren't you a little presumptuous announcing the cause of 9-11? Who asked you anyway? 8O

Uncle
 

Hotshot

Electoral Member
May 31, 2006
330
0
16
Re: RE: More "friendly fire"

unclepercy said:
Hotshot said:
Lineman said:
Just curious Hotshot but how will you blame the Americans if it's found it was a Canadian error? You have No idea what you're talking about. You're answer to everything is "blame the Americans!" It's WAR, it's being fought by humans, and errors will be made by all sides, very unfortunate, but inevitable.

First, it is the yankees fault that we are there in the first place in case you have forgotten. It they weren't so damn arrogant in the first place, the rest of the world wouldn't hate them and 9-11 wouldn't have happened.

In the previous case, the yankees were definitely in the wrong, but they wormed their way out of accepting responsibility.

In this case the Canadians were just waking up for crying out loud. The damn yanks were just trigger happy.

Canada and NATO should just pull out and leave the yanks alone with their butts hanging out.

FIRST, don't call me a damned Yankee. Second, the rest of the world does not hate us. Third, aren't you a little presumptuous announcing the cause of 9-11? Who asked you anyway? 8O

Uncle

First: If you live in the USofA, you are a 'damned yankee'.
Second: If the rest of the world doesn't hate you, how come they are always trying to kill you?? (Lets face it, the majority of targets of terrorists are 'damned yankees').
Third: In this case Lineman did.
 

Hotshot

Electoral Member
May 31, 2006
330
0
16
I think not said:
It's nice to know we get under Hotshot's skin just for being American.

I admit it's one of life's little bonuses. :D

You ain't getting under my skin. Frankly I don't care how stupid you people are, I just enjoy pointing it out....
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
Hotshot said:
I think not said:
It's nice to know we get under Hotshot's skin just for being American.

I admit it's one of life's little bonuses. :D

You ain't getting under my skin. Frankly I don't care how stupid you people are, I just enjoy pointing it out....

Are you including Canadian-Americans, or are they exempt? :lol:
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
848
113
70
Saint John, N.B.
I think not said:
Hotshot said:
I think not said:
It's nice to know we get under Hotshot's skin just for being American.

I admit it's one of life's little bonuses. :D

You ain't getting under my skin. Frankly I don't care how stupid you people are, I just enjoy pointing it out....

Are you including Canadian-Americans, or are they exempt? :lol:

Now ITN, it is not nice to bait the intellectually impaired........
 

Kevin Welsh

New Member
Sep 6, 2006
5
0
1
Some interesting information on friendly fire.

"The rate of friendly fire deaths for soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan is substantially lower than in other major military conflicts, a decline that Army officials attribute to better training and high-tech equipment.
Over the past four years, 17 soldiers have died in friendly fire incidents such as the one that killed former professional football player Pat Tillman, according to Army data.
The 17 soldiers felled by friendly fire incidents are about 1 percent of the 1,575 soldiers who have died overall. More than 2,500 Americans from all services have died in the two conflicts.
The 1 percent rate is well below that of Operation Desert Storm, when 17 percent of all service members who died were killed by friendly fire. Rates for World War II, Vietnam and the invasions of Grenada and Panama also were higher than the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts.
So far, the 2004 death of Tillman, an Army Ranger and corporal, during a firefight near the Pakistan-Afghanistan border has been the only one in the war to trigger a formal criminal investigation. Army officials said its Criminal Investigation Command has reviewed other incidents, and some reprimands or administrative punishments have been handed out.
Officials said they could not provide details on those reprimands, including how many there have been.
Of the 17 deaths caused by U.S. or other coalition allies, 10 were in Iraq and seven in Afghanistan. They occurred in 11 incidents.
Pentagon spokesman Paul Boyce said friendly fire deaths have decreased because of increased training, better leadership and new technology that makes it easier to identify forces."

from AP: http://www.newsobserver.com/689/story/417179.html


In CBC.ca regarding the recent Canadian soldier killed by US Warthog:

"NATO spokesman Mark Laity said the force's soldiers flew in roughly 800 missions during the past month and used their weapons in about 450 of them — without killing any allies until now.

"It shows you how rare [friendly fire] is," Laity said.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/09/04/afghanfriendly.html?print


Given the thousands of sorties flown by USA and high reliance on airpower in nearly every contact with the enemy, the rates are low and getting better all the time.
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
11
18
Canada
athabaska said:
You have a naive view of war. Canadians were part of similar events in WW2. One doesn't send in one's ground troops before destroying everything in their path. Even then, tens of thousands of Canadian infantry and others were killed The surviving troops were Canadian vets who live in your town and tens of thosuands of those survivors would have been added to the casualty list if we didn't try and destroy the enemy with as much force as possible.


Have we not evolved since WW2? There were actions in WW2 that we have written international laws against to try to prevent from happening again. I do not know why everyone still goes back to WW2 to justify conduct in 2006.

Keep going back into history and soon you will justify genocides for the end result of a victory over an enemy. Whatever works right?
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
11
18
Canada
#juan said:
The Illegal invasion of Iraq and the so-called "operation Iraq Freedom" cannot be compared with WW2. The Iraq war has been one cock-up after another, and I sure as hell would not compare it to anything Canadian soldiers did in WW2.


In those days we were on the side fighting against the occupier.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
63
Honestly? How many of you ACTUALLY know anything about war?

The amount of casualties in Afghanistan is nothing, its a bloody miracle. The limited number of friendly fire casualties another one.

Standard casualty numbers should be 3 attackers to one defender with about 20% friendly fire casualties. (or was in the last 2 world wars)

We have about 1 attacker to every 60-100 defenders killed, with what, 5% friendly fire?

People, stop expecting 0 casualty wars, thats not how they work.
 

Hotshot

Electoral Member
May 31, 2006
330
0
16
I think not said:
Hotshot said:
I think not said:
It's nice to know we get under Hotshot's skin just for being American.

I admit it's one of life's little bonuses. :D

You ain't getting under my skin. Frankly I don't care how stupid you people are, I just enjoy pointing it out....

Are you including Canadian-Americans, or are they exempt? :lol:

Only if they are Canadian born living for some unknown stupidity south of the border....