Moratorium on Canadian Human Rights criticisms?

[Dexter Sinister]

That's hardly pushing atheist views or an atheist agenda. I just believe that a compulsory, taxpayer-funded educational system is not the right place to promote a particular religious viewpoint.

 

[gerryh]

That's hardly pushing atheist views or an atheist agenda. I just believe that a compulsory, taxpayer-funded educational system is not the right place to promote a particular religious viewpoint.

The Catholic separate school system in Alberta and Ontario is taxpayer supported by those taxpayers that CHOOSE to support the separate system. Taxpayers have a CHOICE as to whether their school taxes goes to the public or separate. It's a CHOICE.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Yes, I know, the same is true in Saskatchewan, and it's not the point. The point is that certain religious groups have a choice and others do not, and that's not fair. They should all have the same choice, or none of them should have the choice.

 

[gerryh]

Yes, I know, the same is true in Saskatchewan, and it's not the point. The point is that certain religious groups have a choice and others do not, and that's not fair. They should all have the same choice, or none of them should have the choice.

I see, so only atheists should have a choice, because if the only choice is public, non secular, then the only ones guaranteed to get what they want are the atheists.

In Alberta, the separate school system was a condition of joining the confederation, or are you, like machjo, saying that that promise and condition should be broken?

 

[Machjo]

''should we not be holding our tongues about criticizing other countries' human rights records until we clean up our own back yard?''

I don't know enough about the subject so I won't comment directly but will ask this: did Canada do like the USA in supporting fascists with wicked human rights abuses records such as General Rios-Montt, Suharto, Saddam, Mobutu? Has Canada supported the tyrants in Myanmar or Islam Karim in Uzbek who is said to be the world's worst tyrant?

If the Canadian government has supported these murderers then, like Washington, DC it should keep its mouth shut about human rights abuses and stop trying to gain political headway from the subject.

No, Canada's not half that bad. But I've already included one quote about the monarch in Canada from our constitution and how essentially our monarch does not have the same freedom of religion as most Canadians without having to abdicate.

Also, consider this from the BNA Act, still in force today:

Constitution Acts, 1867 to 1982

"Education

Legislation respecting Education

93. In and for each Province the Legislature may exclusively make Laws in relation to Education, subject and according to the following Provisions:—
(1) Nothing in any such Law shall prejudicially affect any Right or Privilege with respect to Denominational Schools which any Class of Persons have by Law in the Province at the Union:
(2) All the Powers, Privileges, and Duties at the Union by Law conferred and imposed in Upper Canada on the Separate Schools and School Trustees of the Queen's Roman Catholic Subjects shall be and the same are hereby extended to the Dissentient Schools of the Queen's Protestant and Roman Catholic Subjects in Quebec:
(3) Where in any Province a System of Separate or Dissentient Schools exists by Law at the Union or is thereafter established by the Legislature of the Province, an Appeal shall lie to the Governor General in Council from any Act or Decision of any Provincial Authority affecting any Right or Privilege of the Protestant or Roman Catholic Minority of the Queen's Subjects in relation to Education:
(4) In case any such Provincial Law as from Time to Time seems to the Governor General in Council requisite for the due Execution of the Provisions of this Section is not made, or in case any Decision of the Governor General in Council on any Appeal under this Section is not duly executed by the proper Provincial Authority in that Behalf, then and in every such Case, and as far only as the Circumstances of each Case require, the Parliament of Canada may make remedial Laws for the due Execution of the Provisions of this Section and of any Decision of the Governor General in Council under this Section."

The result being that Ontario has a separate school system today whereby public Catholic are publicly funded but that those of other denominations cannot be. You can read more on that here:

Home - www.OneSchoolSystem.org

Sure it's not nearly as bad as the US' support of public regimes, but that's still no reason to tolerate this kind of garbage in our constitution.

The Catholic separate school system in Alberta and Ontario is taxpayer supported by those taxpayers that CHOOSE to support the separate system. Taxpayers have a CHOICE as to whether their school taxes goes to the public or separate. It's a CHOICE.

Most other provinces have also extended subsidies not only to Catholic but to all denominational schools, while others have found other legal ways to not have to fund any denominational school. Ontario is the only province to the best of my knowledge that continues to maintain this discriminatory system

What would be wrong with a Swedish-style voucher system for example? That way, if the demand is there, you could still have your Catholic school, but only if numbers warrant, and no longer an absolute guarantee.

To say that to remove such a privilege is taking away your rights would be like me saying that if my neighbour stops giving me free chocolates all the time that he's infringing on my inalienable right to chocolate. If you want your own school system, then pay for it yourself. Who's stopping you?

Yes, I know, the same is true in Saskatchewan, and it's not the point. The point is that certain religious groups have a choice and others do not, and that's not fair. They should all have the same choice, or none of them should have the choice.

Bingo! All or none.

I see, so only atheists should have a choice, because if the only choice is public, non secular, then the only ones guaranteed to get what they want are the atheists.

In Alberta, the separate school system was a condition of joining the confederation, or are you, like machjo, saying that that promise and condition should be broken?

Now you do have a point there, and in a sense this works like treaty rights. We can either honour the treaty or give back what we took from the treaty. I see the same to be applicable here. Since these provinces were granted such guarantees as a condition for confederation, then should we wish to renegotiate this, they do have the option of leaving confederation, and that option ought to be granted to them. However, if a province wants to uphold such discriminatory laws in this day and age, then good riddance to it and don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Ah gerryh, you persist in misunderstanding so you can register another complaint about atheists having everything their way. In no sense did I suggest only atheists should have a choice, I'm saying either everybody should have the choice or nobody should, and my preference is the latter. I'd prefer to see one secular public school system that does not engage in religious instruction, that should be a private matter among parents and their children and whatever church/mosque/synagogue/temple they choose to belong to. I believe it's not the proper business of the state to support a religion, not even to the point of collecting and disbursing taxes on its behalf at arms length. But it'd be a supremely foolish legislator who tried to do away with the separate school system and I'd not suggest it be attempted, it's too entrenched to be practical or feasible.

 

[Unforgiven]

Seeing that Canada's human rights record isn't perfect, should we not be holding our tongues about criticizing other countries' human rights records until we clean up our own back yard?

Of course, it would be a stupid situation otherwise. Imagine putting that onus on to any other aspect of life. Perfection is no reason not to attempt to improve.

I realize that many countries have a much worse record than Canada. My problem though is that many Canadians seem to excuse Canadian violations of human rights on the grounds that as long as we're not the worst offender, we're OK. I would like to think Canada could aim higher than that, that we will still not ignore our human rights record even in the face of worse violators abroad.

It's complex situation that isn't going to be solved easily or quickly.

Among the areas Canada needs to work on that I can see are the following:

1. Respect for treaties entered into in good faith.
2. Replacing the Bill of Rights 1689 with a new Bill that protects the monarch's freedom of religion without religious penalty, even if it means having to break with the British monarchy.
3. Rewriting or removing those aspects of the British North America Act that discriminate in favour of certain religious groups with regards to education.
4. Rewrite or remove those aspects of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Official Languages Act that discriminate in favour of French and English Canadians to the detriment of Canada's First Nations.

Not as easy as all that. All of that was earned. All of it was fought for and a lot of blood shed over them. What's more it's not in our culture to give something up and simply walk away.

Until these and other issues are dealt with, is not not a little hypocritical of Canada to be criticizing other nations' human rights record? And how is to excuse our violations on the grounds that other nations
violations are even worse any better than the petty thief who tries to excuse himself on the grounds that the murderer is worse than he is?

Oh goodness life without hypocrisy. Wouldn't that be nice. Why not just ask for no more war or perhaps solving poverty would be a nice place to start? It's ridiculous to tie your hands in such a manner. Solve what can be solved now and leave the rest for future generations to fix. Sadly not the perfect way for then you get far more done in the mean time. But who is excusing any of our human rights abuses? We own up to them, we know discrepancy exists and we work on it. Based on the squeaky wheel principle, things get sorted.

Any thoughts on this? Does Canada's focus on other nations' human rights records not distract from improving the human rights situation in our own country?

Canada as a nation should always be willing to point out human rights abuses. Regardless of our own issues, there is never a time to simple turn away. We will get it right eventually because people continue to voice their concern over them, not because people shut out about them.

 

[Colpy]

Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo

Seeing that Canada's human rights record isn't perfect, should we not be holding our tongues about criticizing other countries' human rights records until we clean up our own back yard?
​

Perfection exists only in the mind of God.

Plato

 

[gerryh]

What would be wrong with a Swedish-style voucher system for example? That way, if the demand is there, you could still have your Catholic school, but only if numbers warrant, and no longer an absolute guarantee.

To say that to remove such a privilege is taking away your rights would be like me saying that if my neighbour stops giving me free chocolates all the time that he's infringing on my inalienable right to chocolate. If you want your own school system, then pay for it yourself. Who's stopping you?



Bingo! All or none.

No doubt about it now, you are a moron. My taxes and the taxes of every other family that uses the separate school system in Alberta goes to pay for that school system. There is no "free chocolate". We ARE paying for it, and those that choose the public system are NOT paying for the separate system.

Now you do have a point there, and in a sense this works like treaty rights. We can either honour the treaty or give back what we took from the treaty. I see the same to be applicable here. Since these provinces were granted such guarantees as a condition for confederation, then should we wish to renegotiate this, they do have the option of leaving confederation, and that option ought to be granted to them. However, if a province wants to uphold such discriminatory laws in this day and age, then good riddance to it and don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.

I see, so the way it works is, renegotiate so the terms are more to YOUR liking or get the fcuk outa dodge.


I'll just turn that around. If you don't like what was negotiated to bring these provinces into confederation, then get the hell out of Canada and don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

Ah gerryh, you persist in misunderstanding so you can register another complaint about atheists having everything their way. In no sense did I suggest only atheists should have a choice, I'm saying either everybody should have the choice or nobody should, and my preference is the latter. I'd prefer to see one secular public school system that does not engage in religious instruction, that should be a private matter among parents and their children and whatever church/mosque/synagogue/temple they choose to belong to. I believe it's not the proper business of the state to support a religion, not even to the point of collecting and disbursing taxes on its behalf at arms length. But it'd be a supremely foolish legislator who tried to do away with the separate school system and I'd not suggest it be attempted, it's too entrenched to be practical or feasible.

I'm not misunderstanding anything, I'm just not willing to put the blinders on that you are offering.