Moral Progress or Corruption

[Tecumsehsbones]

I see capitialism as a way out for all. I define capitialism as freedom for one to choose what he or she would like to do to earn a living. For me, capitialism is thinking out of the box. I like your example. I do not advocate more "education and higher learning". I advocate thinking and doing. Capitialism is a way out for the middle class. Government regulation/taxes/entitlements have a stranglehold on the middle class and all classes. People need to be free to do - capitialism provides that.

I know. It's such a violation of your Gawd-given freedom that those gummint tyrants won't let you sell horsemeat as beef, or sell adulterated drugs, or run broken-down, unsafe trucks, or transmit at power that interferes with other transmission, or paint children's toys with nice, bright lead-based paint.

You're so oppressed.

I rather agree with Motar's death spiral example.


Turn on the news, T-Bones. Those practices sadly continue.

Another false equivalency. Those practices are way down from 150 years ago. That's a good thing. You're engaged in "if we can't cure every last instance, we shouldn't do anything at all."

 

[Angstrom]

I agree with you in theory Cj. In practice I believe capitalism has had its day and we need a better system for today's fast moving global economy. I also believe capitalism used to work well for the little guy. I no longer believe it does. It is very difficult for the little guy to compete with mega corporations.
I used to work in a business environment for many years. With some capital and some hard work one could produce a thriving family business that would not only support the family well it would allow for a true opportunity to excel financially. It is very very difficult now for a small family business in retail. One needs buying power. The only way to have buying power is to be huge.

This retail collapse was predicted long ago by David Foot and the book is called Boom Bust Echo...he was right. Conglomerates rule.

But then the internet saved the day and created a new land of opertunity no?
I have no problems with our capitalism, because it's a true reflection of humanity. It dose not pretend something we are not.
It's a reflection of what humans really are. Hunter gatherers.

We are what we are. Unlike some people I accept it. Immoral or not, makes no difference, even if such a thing as a god even cared. Which is very pretentious of us to think he would in the first place. We just think where that special cause we have a obvious bias to think that.

People who believe humans are so importent that god would make the decision to send them his son, are just idiots. That's like saying I will send some bacteria that live in my body a saviour my son. Just not happening, people need go stop believing in fearies.

 

[Sal]

But then the internet saved the day and created a new land of opertunity no?
I have no problems with our capitalism, because it's a true reflection of humanity. It dose not pretend something we are not.
It's a reflection of what humans really are. Hunter gatherers.

We are what we are. Unlike some people I accept it. Immoral or not, makes no difference, even if such a thing as a god even cared. Which is very pretentious of us to think he would in the first place. We just think where that special cause we have a obvious bias to think that.

I do not see the internet as saving the day economically from the vantage point of the average guy.

I know some atheists who are far more moral from a humanitarian perspective than many Christians. They are not motivated by a fear of God since they do not believe he exists. Rather they are internally motivated.

I believe God exists yet I do not hold the Christian view that he cares what we do from a scoring up the sins attitude, judging and then condemning humans. I still believe that I need to do as much for my fellow human beings as possible using the skills and gifts that I have been given.

Neither do I view us as that special just because we are human. Some are special because they operate on a higher plane of existence than most. Everything works together.

 

[Angstrom]

I do not see the internet as saving the day economically from the vantage point of the average guy.

I know some atheists who are far more moral from a humanitarian perspective than many Christians. They are not motivated by a fear of God since they do not believe he exists. Rather they are internally motivated.

Well educated folks I bet

 

[BaalsTears]

Only Big Business can comply with the mandates and regulation of Big Govt. It's an unfair playing field.

 

[Motar]

The question is, is society regressing or progressing morally.

Thanks for keeping us on topic, Angst. What is your opinion concerning the moral trajectory of humanity?

 

[cj44]

T-Bones:
You said, "I know. It's such a violation of your Gawd-given freedom that those gummint tyrants won't let you sell horsemeat as beef, or sell adulterated drugs, or run broken-down, unsafe trucks, or transmit at power that interferes with other transmission, or paint children's toys with nice, bright lead-based paint."

You might want to expand your knowledge of who and what are corporations. Our local shoe shop on Main is a corporation. They pay $15 bucks an hour plus commission to their employees, pay 100% of their insurance premiums, and run an annual food drive for the homeless. I know it is all the rage to pick out the one corporate tyrant in a million, but capatilism PROVIDES employment and most taxes to support social services. In addition, our business community (consisting of many corporations) is involved in numerous charities. They do more than the government ever will for people in need. Is your mind at least open to the fact that MOST businesses/companies/corporations do good? Or are we all greedy horse meat selling rat finks?

Here is another example of an EVIL corporation. A local company that pays their receptionist $17 an hour, and also pays 100% of her health premiums, just opted to renew their healthcare policy early to avoid having to cut health benefits due to Obamacare. The company doesn't want to offer less to their employees, so they took an early renewal at a 6% increase. They are not passing that increase on to their employees. AND, a year from now, the insurer is estimating a 20% increase on the policy, but this company is going to try and not pass any of that expense on to their employees. But, perhaps you would rather focus on horse meat.

Doesn't anybody realize that companies want the best employees so they desire to offer the best pay and benefits?????????? Why doesn't anybody get that? And why do you think any company or corporation would see an increase in sales by sticking it to the consumer with horse meat. See, how the marketplace has a self correcting factor? How long am I going to patronize a business if it is selling me broken down trucks? Will I not take my business elsewhere. Good Grief. I bet it is a conspiracy amongst these corporations - they are sticking horsemeat in the motors of trucks - yeah, that's it because that wouldn't be a P/R nightmare.

Angstrom - the difficulty in owning or starting a small business today is government regulation and tax burden. If the feds would get their hooks out of us, we would see more thriving businesses. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Capitialism works. There is no other option. None, unless we all want to be hand fed by the state. In any system, the dicator elements will try to rise. They are most thwarted in a free market economy. But, as we have seen, someone has to keep an eye on the fed and their regulatory system.

angstrom:
"People who believe humans are so importent that god would make the decision to send them his son, are just idiots. That's like saying I will send some bacteria that live in my body a saviour my son. Just not happening, people need go stop believing in fearies."

That is some heavy commentary dude. Hey, what if God aint so bad? What if he wants to minister to you and bless you with good? That is my witness to you brother. God is Good. Try that thinking out for awhile.

This is a good comment and you should expand the thought.

Me guilty as well - as for going off topic. I'll try to get us back on topic.

As we continue our downward trajectory, we will see more greed and corruption surface. Every aspect of buisness and life will be affected.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

T-Bones:
You said, "I know. It's such a violation of your Gawd-given freedom that those gummint tyrants won't let you sell horsemeat as beef, or sell adulterated drugs, or run broken-down, unsafe trucks, or transmit at power that interferes with other transmission, or paint children's toys with nice, bright lead-based paint."

You might want to expand your knowledge of who and what are corporations. Our local shoe shop on Main is a corporation. They pay $15 bucks an hour plus commission to their employees, pay 100% of their insurance premiums, and run an annual food drive for the homeless. I know it is all the rage to pick out the one corporate tyrant in a million, but capatilism PROVIDES employment and most taxes to support social services. In addition, our business community (consisting of many corporations) is involved in numerous charities. They do more than the government ever will for people in need. Is your mind at least open to the fact that MOST businesses/companies/corporations do good? Or are we all greedy horse meat selling rat finks?

Here is another example of an EVIL corporation. A local company that pays their receptionist $17 an hour, and also pays 100% of her health premiums, just opted to renew their healthcare policy early to avoid having to cut health benefits due to Obamacare. The company doesn't want to offer less to their employees, so they took an early renewal at a 6% increase. They are not passing that increase on to their employees. AND, a year from now, the insurer is estimating a 20% increase on the policy, but this company is going to try and not pass any of that expense on to their employees. But, perhaps you would rather focus on horse meat.

That was in response to your comment about government regulation, not about corporations. By the way, I've forgotten more about corporations than you'll ever know. Amongst other things, I've set up several. How 'bout you?

Doesn't anybody realize that companies want the best employees so they desire to offer the best pay and benefits?????????? Why doesn't anybody get that? And why do you think any company or corporation would see an increase in sales by sticking it to the consumer with horse meat. See, how the marketplace has a self correcting factor? How long am I going to patronize a business if it is selling me broken down trucks? Will I not take my business elsewhere. Good Grief. I bet it is a conspiracy amongst these corporations - they are sticking horsemeat in the motors of trucks - yeah, that's it because that wouldn't be a P/R nightmare.

So, the idea of setting up a corporation, selling inferior products, then shutting down the corporation and setting up another one, is alien to you. Good for you. You're an honest man.

But don't think it hasn't occurred to others. And don't think it hasn't been done. Repeatedly.

 

[Motar]

As we continue our downward trajectory, we will see more greed and corruption surface. Every aspect of buisness and life will be affected.

Agree, cj. Is there an identifiable cause/remedy?

Biblically speaking, there are some well-known passages illuminating this matter of human moral trajectory - Moses' "Ten Commandments" (Exodus 20), Jesus' "Lord's Prayer" (Matthew 6) and Paul's "wrath of God" message (Romans 1).

All three proceed in content from relationship with God (spiritual) to relationships with people (moral) - the former preceding/predicting the latter.

 

[Zipperfish]

At what point in the past do you think humanity was more moral than it is now?

Early America, early Rome, shoguera Japan, Vikings...

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Early America, early Rome, shoguera Japan, Vikings...

Let's take the first. Do you mean "America" in the sense of the U.S.? If so, what is it about the early U.S. you find most moral, the slavery, the genocide, the virtual slavery of women, or the fact that child molestation and physical/sexual abuse of wives and children was considered a man's own business and not a matter for comment or action?

 

[cj44]

T-Bones: "That was in response to your comment about government regulation, not about corporations. By the way, I've forgotten more about corporations than you'll ever know. Amongst other things, I've set up several. How 'bout you?"

Sorry, I often lose track of what topic I am discussing. Too much government regulation strangles business.

Agree, cj. Is there an identifiable cause/remedy?

Biblically speaking, there are some well-known passages illuminating this matter of human moral trajectory - Moses' "Ten Commandments" (Exodus 20), Jesus' "Lord's Prayer" (Matthew 6) and Paul's "wrath of God" message (Romans 1).

All three proceed in content from relationship with God (spiritual) to relationships with people (moral) - the former preceding/predicting the latter.

Cause: Fallen Mankind and its eventual scriptural end. No cure, but we must fight the good fight and never give in to evil. We know not the hour. But, we will continue to spiral downward - perhaps there will be times of peace and repentence.

But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

T-Bones: "That was in response to your comment about government regulation, not about corporations. By the way, I've forgotten more about corporations than you'll ever know. Amongst other things, I've set up several. How 'bout you?"

Sorry, I often lose track of what topic I am discussing. Too much government regulation strangles business.

No problem. Your statement is now correct. Too much regulation, or unwise regulation, is indeed bad for business. I took exception to your original statement, which was a blast against regulation generally.

But you're still wrong about corporations. A corporation is nothing but a business tool, no better and no worse than a partnership or sole proprietorship. Your notion that corporations are more honest or better managed or more beneficent is just silly. Corporations are run by the officers (under the rather loose supervision of the directors). If the officers are wise, conscientious, and benevolent, the corporation will be. If they are not, the corporation won't be. Just like a one-man shop or a partnership.

If there is a qualitative difference, it's that under U.S. law, corporations (aside from non-profits) are forbidden to do good. A for-profit corporation exists to maximise profit to its shareholders. To do anything else exposes the officers and directors to liability in a shareholders' derivative suit. Even such charitable activity corporations engage in has to be accounted for as "goodwill," and that accounting can be challenged.

 

[cj44]

No problem. Your statement is now correct. Too much regulation, or unwise regulation, is indeed bad for business. I took exception to your original statement, which was a blast against regulation generally.

But you're still wrong about corporations. A corporation is nothing but a business tool, no better and no worse than a partnership or sole proprietorship. Your notion that corporations are more honest or better managed or more beneficent is just silly. Corporations are run by the officers (under the rather loose supervision of the directors). If the officers are wise, conscientious, and benevolent, the corporation will be. If they are not, the corporation won't be. Just like a one-man shop or a partnership.

If there is a qualitative difference, it's that under U.S. law, corporations (aside from non-profits) are forbidden to do good. A for-profit corporation exists to maximise profit to its shareholders. To do anything else exposes the officers and directors to liability in a shareholders' derivative suit. Even such charitable activity corporations engage in has to be accounted for as "goodwill," and that accounting can be challenged.

The charity is done by the business owners - no matter how they are organized - as you say, incorporated, sole prop., etc. The actual individuals - all that I have ever known - are charitable people & yes their companies most certainly donate as well. Not sure what you mean that we are not allowed to do good???? Say what??????

 

[Motar]

Cause: Fallen Mankind and its eventual scriptural end. No cure, but we must fight the good fight and never give in to evil. We know not the hour. But, we will continue to spiral downward - perhaps there will be times of peace and repentence.

But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power.

Agree, cj. There is no corporate cure. Individual remedy is Christ. What "form of godliness" do you think produces the immoral character and behaviors described in 2 Timothy 3:1-5 above?

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

The charity is done by the business owners - no matter how they are organized - as you say, incorporated, sole prop., etc.

Charity is also done by corporations. The difference is, as I said, that corporate charity MUST be capable of being written off as "goodwill." If the officers of the corporation state that they are giving corporate money because it's "a moral thing to do" they are liable to legal action.

The actual individuals - all that I have ever known - are charitable people & yes their companies most certainly donate as well. Not sure what you mean that we are not allowed to do good???? Say what??????

I have now explained twice. I'm not sure I can make it any more clear than that.

 

[Zipperfish]

Let's take the first. Do you mean "America" in the sense of the U.S.? If so, what is it about the early U.S. you find most moral, the slavery, the genocide, the virtual slavery of women, or the fact that child molestation and physical/sexual abuse of wives and children was considered a man's own business and not a matter for comment or action?

The fact that there was much more agreement on what constituted a moral action.

A moral code defines "what is good" and "what is bad." Different cultures have different moral codes. I've noted that the overall success of a culture results not so much from the contents of the code, but the conformance with the code. Once that weakens, the glue that holds it all together dissolves.

In the words of American Alexander Tyler in 1770:

The world's great civilizations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependence; from dependence back again into bondage."

You can see this on the poitical left, wiht their multiculturalism and moral relativism. You can see it on the right with their moral abdication of "citizen" to mere economic relationship as "taxpayer."

Or this interesting tidbit on the corrozive effect of demoralization by high-ranking KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov:

The demoralization process in the United States is basically completed already.
For the last thirty-five years. Actually, it is over-fulfilled because
demoralization reaches such areas where previously, not even Comrade Andropov
[1911-1984] and all his experts would even dream of such a tremendous success.
Most of it is done by Americans to Americans, thanks to lack of moral standards.
As I mentioned before, exposure to true information does not matter any more. A
person who is demoralized is unable to assess true information. The facts tell
nothing to him. Even if I shower him with information, with authentic proof,
with documents, with pictures. Even if I take him, by force, to the Soviet Union
and show him concentration camp, he will refuse to believe it until he is going
to receive a kick in his fat bottom. When the military boot crashes his, then he
will understand. But not before that. That is the tragedy of this situation of
demoralization.

 

[cj44]

Agree, cj. There is no corporate cure. Individual remedy is Christ. What "form of godliness" do you think produces the immoral character and behaviors described in 2 Timothy 3:1-5 above?

I think such a trait is produced by denying God and by not honoring his laws/morals which are perfect. instead, They become convinced their thoughts are excellent and true and are willing to accommodate selfishness, greed, lusts, envy etc.

Beyond that, as we draw nearer to the end, I think we will find Christian churches compromising values and the truth of the Scripture. So, maybe in that instance, "the form of godliness" is in appearance - a person that goes to church, may give to the poor, read scripture, help an old lady across the street etc. But, in reality, such a person is knee deep in unrepentent sin. Not entirely sure. It seems that list of immoral traits Paul gives does not resemble "godliness" at all. So perhaps, hypocrisy is what flings a soul over the edge into such an immoral abyss.

Charity is also done by corporations. The difference is, as I said, that corporate charity MUST be capable of being written off as "goodwill." If the officers of the corporation state that they are giving corporate money because it's "a moral thing to do" they are liable to legal action.


I have now explained twice. I'm not sure I can make it any more clear than that.

take it easy TBones. You should know by now I am slower than most. I get it now.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

The fact that there was much more agreement on what constituted a moral action.

A moral code defines "what is good" and "what is bad." Different cultures have different moral codes. I've noted that the overall success of a culture results not so much from the contents of the code, but the conformance with the code. Once that weakens, the glue that holds it all together dissolves.

In the words of American Alexander Tyler in 1770:



You can see this on the poitical left, wiht their multiculturalism and moral relativism. You can see it on the right with their moral abdication of "citizen" to mere economic relationship as "taxpayer."

You need to read more Tyler. If you read a bit more than a cut-and-paste snippet, you'd know that he wasn't American at all: he was Scottish. You'd also know that he was cynical and dismissive of democracy.

Or this interesting tidbit on the corrozive effect of demoralization by high-ranking KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov:

The U.S. still exists. How's the KGB doing? Or the USSR, for that matter?

Interesting that you rely on quotes from people who have been proven wrong.

 

[Motar]

I think such a trait is produced by denying God and by not honoring his laws/morals which are perfect. instead, They become convinced their thoughts are excellent and true and are willing to accommodate selfishness, greed, lusts, envy etc.
Beyond that, as we draw nearer to the end, I think we will find Christian churches compromising values and the truth of the Scripture. So, maybe in that instance, "the form of godliness" is in appearance - a person that goes to church, may give to the poor, read scripture, help an old lady across the street etc. But, in reality, such a person is knee deep in unrepentent sin. Not entirely sure. It seems that list of immoral traits Paul gives does not resemble "godliness" at all. So perhaps, hypocrisy is what flings a soul over the edge into such an immoral abyss.

Well-spoken, cj.

The following is a worthy exposition of "form of godliness" by Spurgeon:

http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols34-36/chs2088.pdf

You need to read more Tyler. If you read a bit more than a cut-and-paste snippet, you'd know that he wasn't American at all: he was Scottish. You'd also know that he was cynical and dismissive of democracy.

It's Tytler, T-Bones.