Michael Mann: It's game over for the Keystone pipeline

BaalsTears

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Because it isn't human nature.

Yeah, I agree. But that being the case maybe Canadians should be a little bit more quiet about AGW. Adapt to global warming or climate change or climate disruption or whatever it may be called. Earth was once an ice world. Earth was once too hot for homo sapiens. Nothing is forever except chemistry.

Pennsylvania State University sure seems to breed child molesters like Sandusky and Mann.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Mar 18, 2013
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Pipeline spills tend to be bigger and rarer.
The State Dept. has concluded that Keystone XL'd be safer than sending the crude by rail, a conclusion I'm willing to accept. I was just pointing out that focussing on only rail spills, and not comparing them to pipeline spills, is the sort of dishonesty the WSJ is famous for.
 

Zipperfish

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The State Dept. has concluded that Keystone XL'd be safer than sending the crude by rail, a conclusion I'm willing to accept. I was just pointing out that focussing on only rail spills, and not comparing them to pipeline spills, is the sort of dishonesty the WSJ is famous for.

Forbes actually had a pretty good artilce on it a while back:

Pick Your Poison For Crude -- Pipeline, Rail, Truck Or Boat - Forbes

I was in hazardous materials emergency response for about 15 years in BC. Two of the five biggest spills I dealt with were pipeline spills. Two of the others were from vessels, and the last was a field-erected oil storage tank that was overfilled. Despite a rail incidnet not being on that list, I feared train derailments more--because you're dealing with an unstable crash site, and may have several different products leaking and reacting. But from an environmental (as opposed to human safety) standpoint, the rail spills weren't as large and didn't have the pesistent environmental impacts of the marine/pipeline spills.
 

Colpy

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David Hand was not any old statistician but the President of the Royal Statistical Society, and it wasn't just the "denial mill" but publications such as New Scientist and Mann's own newspaper The Guardian that reported, happily or otherwise, that his hockey stick was "exaggerated". I wrote about Hand's intervention here. But notice how Mann in his book rebuts Hand's charge:
The statement was nonsensical, however. The end of the blade of the hockey stick was simply the instrumental temperature record; there was no way that our reconstruction, or any reconstruction for that matter, could either underestimate it or overestimate it.
That's a great example of the smooth ease with which Mann evades addressing criticism from other scientists. Yes, the "end of the blade" is simply the late 20th century temperature record. But the 900 years in front of it aren't: they're Mann's own calculations as to what the temperature was in 1737 or 1439 or 1102. And what David Hand is disputing is "the particular technique" Mann deployed to get from the apples of the proxy data to the oranges of the temperature record. When the proxy data became inconvenient (as with the downturn in Keith Briffa's tree-ring data after 1960) it got tossed in the trash - because it would have lowered the upward swing of the blade. As I said yesterday, if the proxies are an unreliable guide to the climate of the late 20th century, why are they reliable for the early 16th century? Or, as one climate scientist put it to me recently, if you applied the methods Mann used to establish what the climate was like in, say, the 13th century to our own time, they would give you an entirely inaccurate picture of 21st century climate.
~As I mentioned yesterday, the Climategate inquiries settled on an artful fudge, claiming that East Anglia's scientists had done nothing wrong in their papers but the IPCC had played somewhat fast and loose with how they presented it to the world. At Climate Audit, Ross McKittrick writes:
An important point that you [Steve McIntyre] make in the last paragraph is that for all intents and purposes, IPCC = Team = IPCC. The various inquiries sometimes pull the trick of exonerating a Team member for having once pointed to (e.g.) the divergence problem in an academic journal article somewhere, while blaming "the IPCC" for concealing it, without pointing out that it was all the same people. When Oxburgh makes an ever-so-gentle rebuke of "presentations of this work by the IPCC and others" who "have sometimes neglected to highlight this issue" it's disingenuous, since Mann and the CRU guys were the authors both of the underlying papers and the IPCC chapter alike.
That's the point: The deception was not perpetrated by some vast bland bureaucracy called "the IPCC". In 2001, the IPCC was Mann, as Lead Author on climate variability, and a handful of cronies.
~The other day, the Swedish climatologist Lennart Bengtsson outed himself as having "defected" to the skeptic side of the street:
I have always been a skeptic and I believe this is what most scientists really are.
But Professor Bengtsson was previously a reliable warm-monger who took the party line "up to and including the belief that Michael Mann's Hockey Stick was a scientifically plausible assessment of the relationship between CO2 emissions and global mean temperature".
He now says:
The whole concept behind IPCC is basically wrong.
As this headline puts it, "Lennart Bengtsson: He Knows How Little We Know." Which is more than you can say about Mann's latest dupe John Gibbons above. But, at 77 and with his career winding down, Bengtsson also knows enough to know that the cartoon climatology advanced by Mann through the IPCC will one day, soon, be seen as a kind of madness of which real science will be deeply ashamed. He doesn't want to be remembered as part of that madness. He won't be the last, either.
~UPDATE: In the wee small hours since the above was posted, the climate mullahs went to work. Lennart Bengtsson:
I have been put under such an enormous group pressure in recent days from all over the world that has become virtually unbearable to me. If this is going to continue I will be unable to conduct my normal work and will even start to worry about my health and safety. I see therefore no other way out therefore than resigning from GWPF. I had not expecting such an enormous world-wide pressure put at me from a community that I have been close to all my active life. Colleagues are withdrawing their support, other colleagues are withdrawing from joint authorship etc. I see no limit and end to what will happen. It is a situation that reminds me about the time of McCarthy. I would never have expecting anything similar in such an original peaceful community as meteorology. Apparently it has been transformed in recent years.
This is the "climate of fear" I've written about. The ugly climate that Mann has made.

Village Idiot :: SteynOnline
 

pgs

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Forbes actually had a pretty good artilce on it a while back:

Pick Your Poison For Crude -- Pipeline, Rail, Truck Or Boat - Forbes

I was in hazardous materials emergency response for about 15 years in BC. Two of the five biggest spills I dealt with were pipeline spills. Two of the others were from vessels, and the last was a field-erected oil storage tank that was overfilled. Despite a rail incidnet not being on that list, I feared train derailments more--because you're dealing with an unstable crash site, and may have several different products leaking and reacting. But from an environmental (as opposed to human safety) standpoint, the rail spills weren't as large and didn't have the pesistent environmental impacts of the marine/pipeline spills.
Well a railcar incident destroyed the fish habitat in the Cheakamous river hear in B.C.
I know I spelled it wrong .
 

petros

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Nov 21, 2008
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Well a railcar incident destroyed the fish habitat in the Cheakamous river hear in B.C.
I know I spelled it wrong .

But it wasn't evil energy sands oil. That one was a chemical spill. There is a difference.

Lac Megantic was kerogen. The same kerogen from the Bakken XL is to deliver to Cushing and Houston from Montana, Sask. Manitoba and North Dakota.

The derailment 5 days ago in Estevan posted above was kerogen.

Kerogen has a flash point similar to gasoline.

Let's keep on cheering on political fluff as "environmental" while vastly increasing the odds of yet another deadly to humans tragedy.

Keystone XL (a second phase of the already pumping Keystone project) is every bit a US oil pipeline as it is Canadian.

The Keystone XL Pipeline Project is a proposed 1,179-mile (1,897 km), 36-inch-diameter crude oil pipeline, beginning in Hardisty, Alta., and extending south to Steele City, Neb. This pipeline is a critical infrastructure project for the energy security of the United States and for strengthening the American economy.

Along with transporting crude oil from Canada, the Keystone XL Pipeline will also support the significant growth of crude oil production in the United States from producers in the Bakken region of Montana and North Dakota.

This pipeline will allow Canadian and American oil producers more access to the large refining markets found in the American Midwest and along the U.S. Gulf Coast. Keystone XL Pipeline Maps and Information | Keystone XL Pipeline
 

Zipperfish

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Well a railcar incident destroyed the fish habitat in the Cheakamous river hear in B.C.
I know I spelled it wrong .

I was at that one! Caustic, right? Perfect example--went through and completely sterilized everything. Wasn't much left alive after that. Washed through rather quickly I bet though--how long before the ecosystem was getting back to normal?
 

petros

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Nov 21, 2008
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That's why I asked. I would expect oil to last longer. It's not as easily flushed through the system.

Oil would have went downstream without anywhere near the 100% kill off the caustic soda did. You can't contain solubles like you can oil. Being natural, oil is easier for flora and fauna to bounce back.
 

Zipperfish

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Oil would have went downstream without anywhere near the 100% kill off the caustic soda did. You can't contain solubes like you can oil. Being natural, oil is easier for flora and fauna to bounce back.

Can't contain oil on a river either, not if it's flowing more than a knot or so. Oil hangs around for a long time. Oil tends to do in the birds. It really matters what time of year the spill is. I've seen a tanker (truck tanker) of diesel get washed through the Fraser in a few hours. Other than a few odor complaints, there was no sign it was ever there come daylight. On the other hand we had a canola oil spill into the Harbour once that just slaughtered birds. Bad time of year.

Alberta selling mountain caribou habitat - Edmonton - CBC News

The Alberta government is set to start selling off crucial caribou habitat to
the energy industry just days after a federal scientific panel said the herds
were in immediate danger of vanishing completely.
 

pgs

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But it wasn't evil energy sands oil. That one was a chemical spill. There is a difference.

Lac Megantic was kerogen. The same kerogen from the Bakken XL is to deliver to Cushing and Houston from Montana, Sask. Manitoba and North Dakota.

The derailment 5 days ago in Estevan posted above was kerogen.

Kerogen has a flash point similar to gasoline.

Let's keep on cheering on political fluff as "environmental" while vastly increasing the odds of yet another deadly to humans tragedy.

Keystone XL (a second phase of the already pumping Keystone project) is every bit a US oil pipeline as it is Canadian.

The Keystone XL Pipeline Project is a proposed 1,179-mile (1,897 km), 36-inch-diameter crude oil pipeline, beginning in Hardisty, Alta., and extending south to Steele City, Neb. This pipeline is a critical infrastructure project for the energy security of the United States and for strengthening the American economy.

Along with transporting crude oil from Canada, the Keystone XL Pipeline will also support the significant growth of crude oil production in the United States from producers in the Bakken region of Montana and North Dakota.

This pipeline will allow Canadian and American oil producers more access to the large refining markets found in the American Midwest and along the U.S. Gulf Coast. Keystone XL Pipeline Maps and Information | Keystone XL Pipeline
Yup a difference for sure . But it was still a train derailment into a fish bearing river and caused great enviromental damage .

What is the normal amount of fisheries hatchlings in the Cheakamus?

Oil wouldn't have been as harsh.
Sorry I hadn't read the whole thread yet .
I do believe Petros is correct in a fast running river like the Cheakamus .
But my point was that rail derailments do occur and are potentially more damaging than pipeline spills .
 

petros

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Yup a difference for sure . But it was still a train derailment into a fish bearing river and caused great enviromental damage .


Sorry I hadn't read the whole thread yet .
I do believe Petros is correct in a fast running river like the Cheakamus .
But my point was that rail derailments do occur and are potentially more damaging than pipeline spills .

Birds like to shoot the rapids apparently.
 

Zipperfish

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Yup a difference for sure . But it was still a train derailment into a fish bearing river and caused great enviromental damage .


Sorry I hadn't read the whole thread yet .
I do believe Petros is correct in a fast running river like the Cheakamus .
But my point was that rail derailments do occur and are potentially more damaging than pipeline spills .

Oh I've been to lots of derailments. They can be pretty nasty. But they are limited in volume by the container that is breached. That isn't the case for pipelines. They are also harder to detect than rail spills.

I'm not saying one is better than the other. Just my experience.