Mandatory Compliance with Canadian Labour Laws for Factory Workers in Foreign Lands

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
Hello, AKA, and welcome to CanadianContent.net.

As for your suggestion, I can see a major issue with the above suggestion, and that is the question of sovereignty. Canada does not have the sovereignty over other nations that it would need in order to enforce any sort of regulations in respect of factory workers. If Canada wanted to take this position, I could see only two ways in which it could happen: (a) Canada takes a principled position, and simply restricts the import of anything not manufactured with fair conditions for workers (the bureaucracy and inefficiency of enforcing this policy would be terrifying, though), or (b) create tax or tariff incentives for companies that import, to Canada, product created following these fair-treatment guidelines.

It would be nearly impossible to coordinate without a massive government department, though.
 

coldstream

on dbl secret probation
Oct 19, 2005
5,160
27
48
Chillliwack, BC
The basic problem we have is that Free Trade has NOT worked. It's promises have NEVER been realized. The prior period to its onset of 1946 -1971, when a comprehensive system of tariffs, and currency stability through the Bretton Woods Agreement was in place, did not produce a bitter, ennervating trade wars.

It produced the greatest period of prosperity, and equitably shared economic growth in the history of the world. What has happened since we accepted these promises of Free Trade and monetarism. We have become increasingly de-industrialized.. industries like steel, and manufacturing in general have collapsed to a shadow of their former selves. We have now returned to a colonial status of exporter rather than processor of our natural resources.

The labour market is now saturated with low paying service jobs. Permanent, well compensated life long jobs with secure benefits and pensions have all but disappeared for young people. In their place is contract work, no benefits or pensions, and a roller coaster ride of economic ups and downs.

In the 1950s a middle class Canadian family could survive with one bread winner's income comfortably. Now even with two incomes families are barely making ends meet, awash in debt.

Due to the dictates of monetarism (free trade in money).. we have lost the ability to sovereignly set credit and monetary policy aimed at economic growth. We are forced into reflexive action to protect the value of our currency.. irregardless on its effects on industry.. dictated to us by an anonymous global investment organism and rigged markets. This wild beast viciously threatens 'retaliation' to any nation that dares to declare its economic independence.

Nations all over the globe are in crisis. Former 'examples' of the benefits of Free Trade like Ireland, Greece, Spain of the EU are being forced into austerity regimes. Even its major founders in France, Britain and Germany find themselves awash with debt, and cutting deeply into the social programs. In a time when technology should be increasing our wealth, we see entire nations forced into bankruptcy and poverty.

Free Trade has been worse than a failure, it has been a criminal fraud responsible for impoverishing us, and polarizing wealth in our nation. It is also unsustainable. The next big crash is just around the corner. The whole system is like a bouncing ball on a downward stair case, losing energy every time is hits ground, never regaining its previous height.
 
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coldstream

on dbl secret probation
Oct 19, 2005
5,160
27
48
Chillliwack, BC
Workers of the World were internationalists, intent of imposing a dictatorship of the proletariat on a borderless world. Couldn't be further from what i am proposing, which is a return to a true nation based Free Enterprise system, instead of the collapsing global Free Market system, which is a dictatorship controlled by Investment Bankers.
 

Trotz

Electoral Member
May 20, 2010
893
1
18
Alberta
We have now returned to a colonial status of exporter rather than processor of our natural resources.

Even then, the limited industry in Ontario and Quebec meant little for the rest of the country. Canada has always been a staples' based economy, or colonial as you described.


The labour market is now saturated with low paying service jobs. Permanent, well compensated life long jobs with secure benefits and pensions have all but disappeared for young people. In their place is contract work, no benefits or pensions, and a roller coaster ride of economic ups and downs.

In the 1950s a middle class Canadian family could survive with one bread winner's income comfortably. Now even with two incomes families are barely making ends meet, awash in debt.
Female participation in the workforce led to compression of wages and the arrival of mass credit, in the 1970s, meant that corporations no longer needed to pay their workers enough to afford the means of subsistence (Suburb home, 2.1 kids, automobile) but rather just enough to avoid bankruptcy on their consumer and mortage debt.

An unpopular truth, but if we want to see a return to 1950s economic prosperity, than we need to remove wage compressions, i.e. restrict immigration from all countries, stream women out of the work force and illegalize credit. As I stated it is an unpopular truth, hence the status quo of stagnation which will continue until the economic system collapses.


Nations all over the globe are in crisis. Former 'examples' of the benefits of Free Trade like Ireland, Greece, Spain of the EU are being forced into austerity regimes. Even its major founders in France, Britain and Germany find themselves awash with debt, and cutting deeply into the social programs. In a time when technology should be increasing our wealth, we see entire nations forced into bankruptcy and poverty.
Ironic ain't it? People mistake our computers, televisions and other contemporary distractions for economic improvements. At times, I would gladly return to the 1910s, when my Great Grandfather bought a brand new T-Ford in return for a few months at a factory in Michigican.

I like to ask people to imagine economic freedom back then but with our current technological base. Sure, life back in 1910 was harsh but that was because things like Penicillin were not yet invented and not because people were poor. The fact remains in that in a century we have seen a tremendous decline in our economic freedom and independence. If the 1910s had our technology, just about every family would be debt free, would own two automobiles, have a HDTV, computer, internet, be able to educate their children (although it probably would be irrevelent because of high wages - hence no diploma factories or everyone getting an university education), own their own guns, et al. Oh, and families would probably still be large, as in 3-6 children, namely because there wouldn't be concerns as to how to educate and feed them... Can't say much about our current society in that most families can't even afford the tutition rate for one kid.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
And your choice of currency?

Good question. How about the Globo? yeah, I know, it's not a very original name, but I'm sure we could come up with a reasonable name for it.

The basic problem we have is that Free Trade has NOT worked. It's promises have NEVER been realized. The prior period to its onset of 1946 -1971, when a comprehensive system of tariffs, and currency stability through the Bretton Woods Agreement was in place, did not produce a bitter, ennervating trade wars.

It produced the greatest period of prosperity, and equitably shared economic growth in the history of the world. What has happened since we accepted these promises of Free Trade and monetarism. We have become increasingly de-industrialized.. industries like steel, and manufacturing in general have collapsed to a shadow of their former selves. We have now returned to a colonial status of exporter rather than processor of our natural resources.

The labour market is now saturated with low paying service jobs. Permanent, well compensated life long jobs with secure benefits and pensions have all but disappeared for young people. In their place is contract work, no benefits or pensions, and a roller coaster ride of economic ups and downs.

In the 1950s a middle class Canadian family could survive with one bread winner's income comfortably. Now even with two incomes families are barely making ends meet, awash in debt.

Due to the dictates of monetarism (free trade in money).. we have lost the ability to sovereignly set credit and monetary policy aimed at economic growth. We are forced into reflexive action to protect the value of our currency.. irregardless on its effects on industry.. dictated to us by an anonymous global investment organism and rigged markets. This wild beast viciously threatens 'retaliation' to any nation that dares to declare its economic independence.

Nations all over the globe are in crisis. Former 'examples' of the benefits of Free Trade like Ireland, Greece, Spain of the EU are being forced into austerity regimes. Even its major founders in France, Britain and Germany find themselves awash with debt, and cutting deeply into the social programs. In a time when technology should be increasing our wealth, we see entire nations forced into bankruptcy and poverty.

Free Trade has been worse than a failure, it has been a criminal fraud responsible for impoverishing us, and polarizing wealth in our nation. It is also unsustainable. The next big crash is just around the corner. The whole system is like a bouncing ball on a downward stair case, losing energy every time is hits ground, never regaining its previous height.

I think you're simplifying things too much. Indeed free trade kills jobs. Why? Because it's more efficient. To take an example, imagine that Machjo Ltd. has a factory in Quebec, and one in Washington State. Now imagine we have a protectionist policy. As a result, my factory in Quebec will also sell goods to BC residents, just as my factory in Seattle will sell products to New York State. Now of course the cost of goods will be inflated because of the added overhead caused by having to buy more trucks, hire more truckers, and buy more gas to get products to their destination.

Now imagine we lift trade restrictions and have free trade. Suddenly, it makes more sense for my factory in Quebec to sell to New York State and my factory in Seattle to sell to British Columbia. As a result, truckers are laid off, we buy fewer trucks and less gas, we use roads less, and so governments need not build as many freeways, meaning more road construction workers are laid off, etc.

On the other hand, the cost of goods goes down, meaning that the extra cash could go towards buying other products and thus create jobs elsewhere. Looking at it that way, tariffs and quotas merely contribute to make-work jobs rather than economically productive jobs.

While I fully agree that governments have failed to ensure a smooth transition to free trade and ensure full employment, I will not say that those 'good old days' were so good either. For the most part, though indeed there were more jobs, there were also more make-work jobs and so the price of products was more expensive too owing to the economic inefficiency of the protectionist system. Free trade eliminated some of those economically burdensome make-work jobs, and that's a good thing.

Now while it may be true that society then did a better job of ensuring a more equitable distribution of resources, that was done in spite of, and not because of, protectionism. If anything, with protectionism pushing prices up, it likely hurt the poor more than free trade did.

We can learn from the experience of Fascist Italy during the battle for wheat. Prior to WWII, Italian farmers produced little wheat but many other profitable crops, which they then exported at a profit, allowing them to then import wheat and still keep some extra cash on hand. Mussolini wanted none of that. He wanted economic independence and so launched the battle for wheat. He won that battle, what production increased, and Italy became more economically self-sufficient. However since what was less profitable than what farmers produced before, they actually became poorer. It simply made sense for Italy to produce what it did best and import the rest. Why not learn from history?
 

coldstream

on dbl secret probation
Oct 19, 2005
5,160
27
48
Chillliwack, BC
And your choice of currency?

The soveriegn Canadian Dollar, pegged to an international standard, Gold would do, but it could be to some basket of basic commodities. It's essentially the system we had before monetarism got its claws in us, with floating currencies, and values decided in murky currency markets, instead of by government in the best interests of economic gowth, and in league with a comprehensive system of monetary and credit policy.

Good question. How about the Globo? yeah, I know, it's not a very original name, but I'm sure we could come up with a reasonable name for it.



I think you're simplifying things too much. Indeed free trade kills jobs. Why? Because it's more efficient. To take an example, imagine that Machjo Ltd. has a factory in Quebec, and one in Washington State. Now imagine we have a protectionist policy. As a result, my factory in Quebec will also sell goods to BC residents, just as my factory in Seattle will sell products to New York State. Now of course the cost of goods will be inflated because of the added overhead caused by having to buy more trucks, hire more truckers, and buy more gas to get products to their destination.

Now imagine we lift trade restrictions and have free trade. Suddenly, it makes more sense for my factory in Quebec to sell to New York State and my factory in Seattle to sell to British Columbia. As a result, truckers are laid off, we buy fewer trucks and less gas, we use roads less, and so governments need not build as many freeways, meaning more road construction workers are laid off, etc.

On the other hand, the cost of goods goes down, meaning that the extra cash could go towards buying other products and thus create jobs elsewhere. Looking at it that way, tariffs and quotas merely contribute to make-work jobs rather than economically productive jobs.

While I fully agree that governments have failed to ensure a smooth transition to free trade and ensure full employment, I will not say that those 'good old days' were so good either. For the most part, though indeed there were more jobs, there were also more make-work jobs and so the price of products was more expensive too owing to the economic inefficiency of the protectionist system. Free trade eliminated some of those economically burdensome make-work jobs, and that's a good thing.

Now while it may be true that society then did a better job of ensuring a more equitable distribution of resources, that was done in spite of, and not because of, protectionism. If anything, with protectionism pushing prices up, it likely hurt the poor more than free trade did.

We can learn from the experience of Fascist Italy during the battle for wheat. Prior to WWII, Italian farmers produced little wheat but many other profitable crops, which they then exported at a profit, allowing them to then import wheat and still keep some extra cash on hand. Mussolini wanted none of that. He wanted economic independence and so launched the battle for wheat. He won that battle, what production increased, and Italy became more economically self-sufficient. However since what was less profitable than what farmers produced before, they actually became poorer. It simply made sense for Italy to produce what it did best and import the rest. Why not learn from history?

The precepts of Free Trade are not as new as you think. Essentially the national system of political economy has competed with Free Trade since the beginning of the Enlightenment in the 18th Century.

Free Trade has always been the system of Empire, and of entrenched wealth and power for privileged trading and investment classes. In a real sense it is a system of slavery. As we see your vaunted 'efficiency' have been achieved in Maquilladora Free Trade Zones, and sweat shops in Asia. This is not a matter of 'transition', these systems are essentially competing systems of privilege, aristocracy, empire.. with those of equity, democracy and the sovereign nation state.

Free Trade for Canada, has been an umitigated failure. It has never worked and we have an appreciably a less wealthy, less equitable and less diverse economy under its dictates. It has created a permanent underclass in our country, that is getting larger by the year.

Its other hand, that of monetarism, has created financial crisis after crisis in the world.. and we have NOT seen the end of this. The current economic system, with its debt, its exploding quasi monetary instruments in derivatives, its so called Free Markets is on the verge of imploding. We can expect a series of shocks over near to mid term future.

The only solution Free Traders will give you is austerity, a debased currency and an ever less regulated and compensated workplace. It's really a con game.. inflicted and promoted by a media that is owned by the Global Investment Organism that profits from it.
 
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Trotz

Electoral Member
May 20, 2010
893
1
18
Alberta
The soveriegn Canadian Dollar, pegged to an international standard, Gold would do, but it could be to some basket of basic commodities. It's essentially the system we had before monetarism got its claws in us, with floating currencies, and values decided in murky currency markets, instead of by government in the best interests of economic gowth, and in league with a comprehensive system on monetary and credit policy.

Coldstream,
inflation during the gold standard era was virtually non-existent...! Since wages could not be de-valued, and eventually everyone had a pay raise, this led to a high equilibrum in the wage rate. Similarly, there was no inflation to render your savings inert.

The Fiat currency is the capitalist's currency for multiple reasons. It discourages saving (unless it is in land) and promotes consumption, while you can give employees' a pay raise (or even a pay freeze) their wages will still decrease as a result of inflation,
it also allowed bilateral trade arrangements like the kind we see with China (where instead of trading gold we just trade value-less pieces of paper to the Chinese for them to build our products)

In the United States, if they adopted the Gold Standard again, China would end up owning the country for good as you can't use hyperinflation to eradicate debt
 

Trotz

Electoral Member
May 20, 2010
893
1
18
Alberta
As disheartening as it may seem .Labourers are Slavedrones of the 21st Century .Like it or leave.Get a better JOB/Higher Education ..

Was that directed at me or Coldstream? Otherwise you're coming off as a troll, and it's just not "labourers", even your skilled professionals who earn $100,000 a year have less economic opportunities than their forefathers.
 

GreenFish66

House Member
Apr 16, 2008
2,717
10
38
www.myspace.com
Opportunities are what you make of them .

Unlike in some other countries , we in democratic societies have the "choice" to better ourselves..Ol' Industry will make way for the new..We in Canada still have it better than others.. Be thankful ...

We must always continue to strive for 1st world status..That's what what drives us Forever Forward into the Future...

Green/Clean Tech is the way to ensure a Sustainable/Prosperous Future..

(If I am to be considered a troll, I'd like to be one of those Green fuzzy haired luck trolls ;) :) )
 
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AKA

New Member
Nov 30, 2010
6
0
1
I'm just not comfortable devaluing the labourer like that. It's scary that our trade system has little in the way of moral boundaries. Even our system of free society has its limits.

Perhaps the problems we are running into is trade between dissimilar systems. Free trade between countries with the same basic freedoms doesn't seem to hurt a whole lot. I don't see us loosing all sorts of jobs to Germany, and even if we do, a Canadian company could develop a better product and compete. But with a country like China, that's just not the case. They can undercut any Canadian company with cheap labour. I'm thinking that maybe we shouldn't trade with countries who so oppose our system of freedom and fairness. It sets us up for manipulation.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
36,362
4,342
113
Vancouver Island
Thanks for the reply Coldstream and Goober.

I think I'm a free market kind of guy. I don't like the idea of gumming things up with bureaucracy and red tape. But it does seem unfair that business A in Canada can't compete with business B in China for Canadian dollars because business B doesn't have to play by Canadian rules to win those dollars. There has to be some way to level the playing field.

My concern is that the dictators who don't care about justice for their people will end up owning us in the long run. Then we'll end up in the same boat. I think Martin Luther King said something about injustice for the one turning into injustice for all. Are we drinking a coolaid of cheap imports?

Why do you think it would be unenforceable, Coldstream?

I think you are right Goober that oil produced by a dictatorship probably hasn't the environmental concern that we do.
If you put the government in charge all that will happen is a new bureaucracy will come about , cost us billions and accomplish nothing. But you as a consumer can do lots, like look for Canadian made products in stores and tell store owners you are not happy with the made in China crap they flog. When enough people do this things will change.
 

tay

Hall of Fame Member
May 20, 2012
11,548
1
36
Hey all,

I'm new to this site, so please be patient with me as I try to talk to you all about this.

I have this idea that there should be fair labour laws for the people who make the products we buy, regardless of the country they live in. So could our government pass a law requiring that all imported products are made by workers who have some sort of minimum standard for workplace safety, hours, and pay?

Any thoughts?

Rob.


The predecessor to NAFTA had that clause.

And that was promised to happen in NAFTA where the claim was 'the poor countries would be lifted up to our standards'.

Of course we are slowly slinking down to their standards which have not improved.












www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkgx1C_S6ls
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Welcome AKA.

My response to your proposal is that it is well intentioned, but unenforcable. The only way to reverse the disastrous dismantling of our economy that Free Trade has imposed on our nation, is re-institute the National Policies of John A. MacDonald, by re-establishing a rigorous and permanent system of tariffs to protect Canadian industries from exploitive labour pratices that have been given free reign by the Global Free Market paradigm.

Was it not his government that introduced the residential school system?

Thanks for the reply Coldstream and Goober.

I think I'm a free market kind of guy. I don't like the idea of gumming things up with bureaucracy and red tape. But it does seem unfair that business A in Canada can't compete with business B in China for Canadian dollars because business B doesn't have to play by Canadian rules to win those dollars. There has to be some way to level the playing field.

My concern is that the dictators who don't care about justice for their people will end up owning us in the long run. Then we'll end up in the same boat. I think Martin Luther King said something about injustice for the one turning into injustice for all. Are we drinking a coolaid of cheap imports?

Why do you think it would be unenforceable, Coldstream?

I think you are right Goober that oil produced by a dictatorship probably hasn't the environmental concern that we do.

It all works out in the end. If China's goods are more attractive, people sell their CAD and buy RMB, pushing the value of CAD down relative to RMB, resulting in the Chinese product becoming more expensive over time anyway.

In fact, that is already starting to happen.

What I like most about free trade, is that it tends to benefit the poorer country more.

Think of it as natural justice.
 

tay

Hall of Fame Member
May 20, 2012
11,548
1
36
Was it not his government that introduced the residential school system?



It all works out in the end. If China's goods are more attractive, people sell their CAD and buy RMB, pushing the value of CAD down relative to RMB, resulting in the Chinese product becoming more expensive over time anyway.

In fact, that is already starting to happen.

What I like most about free trade, is that it tends to benefit the poorer country more.

Think of it as natural justice.



Yes those Bangladesh workers are just whistling happy tunes all day and I'm sure they would be happy that you like it that way.........


In the Field with Mark Kelley - the fifth estate - CBC News

Made in Bangladesh - the fifth estate - CBC News



LIVE CHAT REPLAY: the fifth estate's Mark Kelley talks Bangladesh garment factories - Your Community
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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