Love Of Our Neighbour
- Thread starter sanctus
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When we do the choosing we arent born yet and when I say "In my belief system" that me covering my arse so noone jumps all over the way I believe
Have you ever read "What Dreams May Come" with Robin Williams......if not.....rent it then we'll have a nice long chat about peoples beliefs becoming reality.
Whoa...what's with Santi's new pic! Is THAT the real him...or was the Hasselhoff/Landon pic the real him. I feel like the world I know has been turned completely upside down!
Sorry, I misunderstood you. Yes, you're correct. I cannot believe that any religious body excluded your mother just because of how she dresses!! I know it happens, but it boggles my mind. As long as everything is decently covered, I could care less what anybody wears. I can't tell you the number of times I've got jeans and a t-shirt on under the robes
Which is why I changed it, at your sweet advice
i guess it depends on the person, i think this picture looks more formal than the other one. i like the other one cos you look more relaxed to me.
When we do the choosing we arent born yet and when I say "In my belief system" that me covering my arse so noone jumps all over the way I believe
i didnt know robin williams wrote books. im gonna look this book up and give it a read.
hun, what the heck are you talking about>???? and can you answer in less than 3 million words
you miss the point. the church hasnt changed its teachings. like for example, its beliefs on communion have always been the same, or the virgin mary. on things of faith it has stayed the same always.
hun, what the heck are you talking about>???? and can you answer in less than 3 million words
Difficult to do, but I'll summarize.
Even though collectives(these are any groups of people bound togeather for a purpose) are able to anger God, He never seems to see their collective wrong as collectively punishable. OK so far?
That has understandably no impact on you if you end up in heaven, it means everything if you are destined for hell and makes a solid case for the defense.
Lets put it in earthly context. If you are due to be executed tomorrow for committing murder, and a group of people did the same thing and they got 10 years each, I am pretty sure you would also scream injustice, and you would be right. You would be correct because your conscience also knows in the midst of your wrongfulness what is just and what isn't, even though you made an error in judgement when you committed the crime. You don't object to your punishment because it is fair, but you object to the inequality of the justice metted out discriminately. That makes your sentence injust. Two things need to exist to make your sentence just. One that the punishment fits the crime, and secondly that the distribution of the punishment is equally applied, all factors remaining equal. (For instance executing Afro Americans was no objection until someone noticed 15 got executed for every 1 white, hypothetically speaking.)
Ok, so far?
Now, back on sin, additional to being culpable for actions in the earthly anology above, what also matters to God besides you acting out on a sin is how you think and what is in your heart. So if you are part of a murderous group of people that are known to be collectively of bad character, and 2 of the 50 murder someone, and you HAD THE DESIRE that the person dies, then God sees your thought as equally culpable just has you would have if you did the killing.
Ok, so far?
My point was also that we are oblivious to the interaction of God and societies. We seem to see this relationship has none of our doing, but in the context of God and His creation it is very relevant to us. This is why I feel all judgements by God should be revealed to everyone and they should be judged as units in which they chose to sin,(ie:collective,individual) and that's not the case.
I'll cut this off as you like it short. Oh,Oh, guess I'm extended again.(250455 words,dern!!:banghead:
AndyF
Oh boy.........In your religious belief isnt it true that you have free will? That you are culpible only for your own actions?
Your correct. (your knowledge would put some Christians to shame, sure your not one.?
) I am one form called an individual and I am recognized by God has a unit. So the decisions I make through my free will are culpable to me only.
God recognizes other forms as singular units, and He has been known to punish those forms on earth as a unit. This means that he recognizes the fact that they are capable of making collective free will choices as a unit, and they are held accountable, not as individuals in this case but has a group. We have examples of God getting angry at whole groups of people, and some of these have committed abominations. The Levites were one of these people (OT,Exodus). God was so angry he punished part of the group in the hundreds at once by destroying them by earthly death,..... man,women and children.
Now we come to my point. Those abominable individuals in hell who were judged individually for the wrong free choices are watching this scene closely. They see the masses of people getting their earthly punishment. But after that nothing happens. They await the expected final punishment of this abominable nation, and the joining with them in their misery of eternal punishment.
We try to understand this. In earthly trials there may be a judge that is squemish in punishing whole groups of people with the right justice. The judge cannot sentence people by what they feel in their hearts, but he knows they enter a contract and are initiated into the group. He would like to see them all hang, but he must act on those who committed the crime only and those implicated in it. But that is fallible human judgement.
With God, there are no such restrictions. He already proves He's not squemish by carrying out the first half of the punishment to the Levites. If he leaves it like that he does an injustice to those in hell, and those there definitely have a case.
So this is why I bring up the repercussions of such a decision. If God does not met out justice fairly, what is the real definition of love?. His example of love not only comes from His expression of love to us, but on how he treats those deserving punishment. For sure we are left without a true example. He's hurt by abomination enough to torture an individual for eternity, but not enough to torture a nation for eternity. We don't have an issue that He won't punish nations the same way, but at least let up on the individual's punishment to compensate. Is it because of our physical makeup that prevents him, a makeup he designed? Are we conveniently packaged for the incinerator in a single body to make it possible for Him to torture us in this way?
There are various theories I suppose. It could be indeed squemishness of sorts. It could be mass punishment is as abhorent to Omni-beings as it is to everyone which would be a paradox for certain. Still it would be irresponsible if it were not carried through. There is a statement in Peter, or it could be Cor 1 or 2 where He implies that he will do whatever He wishes, that He can act without principle and as randomly and unpredictable as he wishes. I'll look for it and post. It is easier to see the injustice when we view the collective as a single entity like God sees it, rather than the numerous units that make up the form.
AndyF
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Your correct. (your knowledge would put some Christians to shame, sure your not one.?
I am one form called an individual and I am recognized by God has a unit. So the decisions I make through my free will are culpable to me only.
God recognizes other forms as singular units, and He has been known to punish those forms on earth as a unit. This means that he recognizes the fact that they are capable of making collective free will choices as a unit, and they are held accountable, not as individuals in this case but has a group. We have examples of God getting angry at whole groups of people, and some of these have committed abominations. The Levites were one of these people (OT,Exodus). God was so angry he punished all of them at once by destroying them all by earthly death,..... man,women and children.
Now we come to my point. Those abominable individuals in hell who were judged individually for the wrong free choices are watching this scene closely. They see the masses of people getting their earthly punishment. But after that nothing happens. They await the expected final punishment of this abominable nation, and the joining with them in their misery of eternal punishment.
We try to understand this. In earthly trials there may be a judge that is squemish in punishing whole groups of people with the right justice. The judge cannot sentence people by what they feel in their hearts, but he knows they enter a contract and are initiated into the group. He would like to see them all hang, but he must act on those who committed the crime only and those implicated in it. But that is fallible human judgement.
With God, there are no such restrictions. He already proves He's not squemish by carrying out the first half of the punishment to the Levites. If he leaves it like that he does an injustice to those in hell, and those there definitely have a case.
So this is why I bring up the repercussions of such a decision. If God does not met out justice fairly, what is the real definition of love?. His example of love not only comes from His expression of love to us, but on how he treats those deserving punishment. For sure we are left without a true example. He's hurt by abomination enough to torture an individual for eternity, but not enough to torture a nation for eternity. Is it because of our physical makeup that prevents him, a makeup he designed? Are we conveniently packaged for the incinerator in a single body to make it possible for Him to torture us in this way?
There are varioustheories I suppose. It could be indeed squemishness of sorts. It could be occasionally He steps out of His omni-self to engage in random human-like experimentation. There is a statement in Peter, or it could be Cor 1 or 2 where He implies that he will do whatever He wishes, that He can act without principle and as randomly and unpredictable as he wishes. I'll look for it and post.
AndyF
Hi my name is Tam, Im a recovering catholic
Juse cause Im Pagan doesnt mean I havent read the bible......quite a few times lol I have one question......how do you know the masses didnt go to hell? (I personally dont believe in hell and I thought hell meant grave? )
Imean it doesnt say sodum and gamorrah DIDNT go to their perception of fire and brimstone. In your belief isnt "god" all knowing? In my faith we say "let go, let goddess" lol It makes it kinda simple. Let the god/dess do her thing and I do mine. I ask she gives. That sorta thing
I do not carry any hatred inside of me, saying that, is "overkill". In my opinion, not everyone deserves
to be forgiven, and most of those people are not close to me, so, to not forgive them, seems very
right for me, and then forgotton, not carried anywhere.
In my personal life, forgiveness is very important, to make things right, and move on.
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Your correct. (your knowledge would put some Christians to shame, sure your not one.?
I am one form called an individual and I am recognized by God has a unit. So the decisions I make through my free will are culpable to me only.
God recognize
AndyF
Dude, it's the internet, not an essay course
well, thats kinda normal for this forum
If that is what you think, you have missed the point. As an atheist, I just have the opposite opinion
to you, and I don't really care if you change your mind or not, as I'm sure you don't care if I change
mine either.
As a believer, I'm sure you don't want to be criticized for that belief, and as I non believer I don't
either.
So Jesus thought this was important. Okay, I can dig that..but how far would this sort of thinking go--who is and who is not our neighbours???