Kyoto Protocol

[Extrafire]

Re: Kyoto

So is growing your fruit and veggies and canning them for winter.

Used to do it myself when I lived down south and had some land, would love to do it now, but I live in town in a cold climate and on a shady lot. Can't grow enough to pay for the seeds.

 

[mrmom2]

RE: Kyoto

Pigs gorge I used to live there hows the big red forest doing these days Extra?

 

[Extrafire]

RE: Kyoto

Getting redder and looking sadder.

 

[mrmom2]

RE: Kyoto

That sucks I saw my first timber wolf pack in the wild up there back in 79 I love that country and it really sucks to see a bug kill the forests and ruin the country side

 

[Reverend Blair]

Re: Kyoto

Pay close attention. Find a picture of the hockey stick graph. Look at it. Does it show the Little Ice Age? No? This is a graph produced by Mann himself, using his own numbers, extrapolating from his own data. I don't have to know anything about the science or the data. I rely totally on Mann's work, and ignore any detractors, Mckittrick included. Manns data, interpreted by Mann, produces a hockey stick graph that DOESN'T SHOW the little ice age. Seems to me that he's saying there wasn't one.

Mann's hockey stick is a statistical data analysis. It is backed by all sorts of other data, including data that fully takes into account the little ice age. Mann has NEVER said that the little ice age never occurred. His methods follow accepted practices. All criticisms of the hockey stick have been refuted. Most of those attempts at criticizing Mann's work has come from McKitrick. Giving McKitrick the extreme benefit of the doubt, you might say that he's merely incompetent. His repeated efforts and "mistakes" that a high school student wouldn't make point more to fraud than to error though.

You are grabbing what you mistakenly perceive as a problem with one piece of data and using to justify a viewpoint that is not upheld by science. Your position is becoming more and more untenable every day as more and more data comes out to support anthropogenic-caused global warming.

Most people didn't believe it back then. We were too close to the global cooling scare. Are you suggesting that Toyota developed the Prius because the Japanese government ordered them to so they could meet their targets?

Actually car makers around the planet have been encouraged by their governments to come up with cleaner cars. Toyota, being innovative, recognized that there would be a market for such a vehicle as regulation came in, so they did the R&D. You are also ignoring power generated by wind, hydro and tidal...all existing technologies that are only now being instituted in any major way.

I remember K-cars. My wife had one ("85 New Yorker) Never heard any ridicule, only that they were innovative.

I remember the comments on TV and in some of the auto magazines that weren't too heavily influenced by advertising revenues.

Public tastes are always changing. I can remember the early 70's. The big three advertized the hell out of their big low-quality products, but people started buying the smaller, better quality Japanese cars. The big 3 tried everything, even managing to get the goverment to impose import quotas because they were losing so much market share. Nothing worked until they started improving their product and giving the consumers what they wanted.

The North American auto industry never does anything until they are forced to. They wouldn't install seatbelts until they were legislated to. They said that people weren't interested in safety. They said that catalytic converters would bankrupt them, yet they all survived that. Now they are saying that they can't meet increased mileage and/or decreased emission standards on anything close to a reasonable schedule. They say that people don't want it and that it will bankrupt them.

We've heard these lies before. Not everybody has forgotten how many times they have told them.

 

[no1important]

RE: Kyoto

Well when I lived in the Interior the winters were getting shorter, the tempurature was not getting so brutal ( the -30 to -40 seemed like a memory)in the winter for as long and the most noticable is that the lakes froze over later and thawed out sooner. I iced fished a lot so I noticed these things.

If that is not Global Warming I do not know what is.

I saw on CNN, they did a piece on Churchill Manitoba and the Polar bears and the ice isn't freezing, winters are shorter etc.

I also saw a similar program on newsworld about the First Nations of the North struggling with shorter winters and ice getting smaller. The animals are affected negatively as well which in turn affects the First Nation people.

Even Antarctica has huge chunks breaking off.

The list goes on and on and on and on.

People who deny Global Warming need to give their head a shake.

 

[no1important]

RE: Kyoto

I just read your feature article at Vive le Canada Rev, Very good. BTW is that your pic?

Read the One about UN as well. Actually I read them all. Have you ever thought of running for office? You would make a good MP.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Kyoto

Thanks No1. I didn't realize it was up already.

That is my pic...lit as a lingerie model.

Running for office is out of the question...I hate public speaking and if anybody digs into my mis-spent youth, as tends to happen to politicians, I'd be crucified immediately. They wouldn't have to dig very deep either, since I've never tried to hide it.

 

[no1important]

RE: Kyoto

Out of Curiosity, does anywhere else have "Air Care" or emission testing for vehicles in Canada, other than us in the Vancouver area?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Kyoto

So far in Manitoba we only have restrictions on rusty doors and noisy mufflers. Great clouds of blue smoke are fine, having a car that makes you breathe the results of that smoke are not. Thank you Manitoba auto dealers.

 

[Extrafire]

Re: Kyoto

Mann's hockey stick is a statistical data analysis. It is backed by all sorts of other data, including data that fully takes into account the little ice age. Mann has NEVER said that the little ice age never occurred. His methods follow accepted practices. All criticisms of the hockey stick have been refuted.

Let's see..... Mann gathers all that data, all relevant data, properly follows accepted practices and comes up with a graph of global temperatures over the last few centuries. He publicizes the graph as showing the temps over the last few centuries. It doesn't show the little ice age, which is a fact, so how could the graph be correct? He never SAID there was no little ice age, no I suspect he totally forgot about it, or didn't know about it in the first place.

It's glaringly obvious. A graph that presumes to show the temps for the past few centuries and doesn't show that is plain WRONG!

All criticisms of the hockey stick have been refuted. Most of those attempts at criticizing Mann's work has come from McKitrick. Giving McKitrick the extreme benefit of the doubt, you might say that he's merely incompetent. His repeated efforts and "mistakes" that a high school student wouldn't make point more to fraud than to error though.

I'm ignoring McKittrick totally. Or anyone else who has criticized Mann's hockey stick. I'm just looking at the graph. IT'S WRONG! Precisely the type of mistake that would fail a high school student.

You are grabbing what you mistakenly perceive as a problem with one piece of data and using to justify a viewpoint that is not upheld by science.

I'm looking at a graph that supposedly supports global warming theory and noticing that it's obviously WRONG! I'm totally ignoring any other evidence for or against global warming. Just looking at the graph. It's WRONG.

Actually car makers around the planet have been encouraged by their governments to come up with cleaner cars. Toyota, being innovative, recognized that there would be a market for such a vehicle

My point exactly.

as regulation came in,

They may well have taken that into account.

Quote:
I remember K-cars. My wife had one ("85 New Yorker) Never heard any ridicule, only that they were innovative.


I remember the comments on TV and in some of the auto magazines that weren't too heavily influenced by advertising revenues.

That must have been during your V8 period. I recall that muscle car types ran it down because it had low power, but most of the press was very positive.

 

[MMMike]

Re: RE: Kyoto

Out of Curiosity, does anywhere else have "Air Care" or emission testing for vehicles in Canada, other than us in the Vancouver area?

Here in Ontario we have the Drive Clean program, where every other year you have to get your vehicle tested. Complete waste of time & $$. I think the program will be scrapped shortly. Good riddance.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Re: Kyoto

Extrafire:

You do not have the background to make a decision on Mann's Hockey Stick. His work was peer reviewed and has been replicated by statisticans, climatologists, and physicists. The work of his critics has not passed such review by people working in those fields. The criticisms of those critics, which match yours very closely, have consistently been shown to be full of errors and the very premise of their criticisms has been shown to wrong.

Mann's Hockey Stick is also supported by all sorts of data that was developed by independent researchers working in other fields. It does not stand alone, and global warming theory is not dependent on it.

Your only recourse at this point is to go get a full education in a related field and try to disprove Mann's work yourself. Until you do that you will either be quoting people who have been shown to be demonstrably wrong, or you will be trying to make judgements on scientific theories and methods that you do not understand and have no background in.

You can either trust the work of the experts or become an expert yourself. Your repeated insistence that you know more about science than scientists do combined with your apparent unwillingness to check sources that do not match your preconceived political and religious notions are not doing you or anybody else any favours. Instead they show a self-centred unwillingness to face reality.

 

[Extrafire]

Re: Kyoto

People who deny Global Warming need to give their head a shake.

It may well be warming. The earths climate is always warming or cooling. But what is the cause? Yuppies driving SUV's in San Fransisco, or documented natural forces?

 

[Extrafire]

Re: Kyoto

:lol: :lol: :lol: ROTFLMAO :lol: :lol: :lol:

Rev, I don't recall ever hearing anyone go through so many convolutions to avoid the truth! I'll try again.

You do not have the background to make a decision on Mann's Hockey Stick.

Yes I do. I can clearly see it. I know the historical fact of the little ice age. It doesn't show it. Don't require much in the way of qualifications or background to make that assesment.

His work was peer reviewed and has been replicated by statisticans, climatologists, and physicists.

Gee, I wonder, are they human? Could it be they like all those government grants for global warming research?

and global warming theory is not dependent on it.

Never said it was. Never heard anyone else who said it was until you mentioned it. Give it up already.

Until you do that you will either be quoting people who have been shown to be demonstrably wrong,

I'm not quoting anybody. I'm just looking at Mann's graph. It's clearly WRONG.

Instead they show a self-centred unwillingness to face reality.

I'm facing graph. It looks pretty real to me.

You said there was a little ice age. You also say Mann's graph is correct even though it doesn't show the little ice age. And you say I'M unwilling to face reality? :lol: :lol:

 

[Reverend Blair]

Re: Kyoto

Yes I do. I can clearly see it. I know the historical fact of the little ice age. It doesn't show it. Don't require much in the way of qualifications or background to make that assesment.

Then you won't mind giving us your scientific credentials, a list of your previously published peer-reviewed papers, a detailed review of what you consider to be the problems with Mann's hockey stick, and a revised version of his work showing different results?

You haven't got a clue what you're talking about, Extrafire. You don't have the qualifications or the background. You've brought a dull knife to a gun fight.

Gee, I wonder, are they human? Could it be they like all those government grants for global warming research?

You've just shown a complete ignorance of peer review.

Never said it was. Never heard anyone else who said it was until you mentioned it. Give it up already.

If you haven't then it shows that your research into the matter has been far less than extensive.

I'm not quoting anybody. I'm just looking at Mann's graph. It's clearly WRONG.

No, you are wrong. You are just looking at the graph without knowing the method used to create it, the data chosen and why that data was chosen, and at least a basic understanding of scientific statistical analysis and the different methods and computer programs used to complete that analysis. You then claim to be using some sort of common sense to reach your conclusion. Common sense would dictate that if you reach a conclusion without knowing or understanding the facts, but reject the views of people who do know and understand the facts, then you have no common sense.

 

[MMMike]

Re: Kyoto

This is one Kyoto supporter that is getting very pessimistic about our involvement. The Liberals committed to a very aggressive target for reduction, then do nothing for eight years, then come up with a lame plan to reach our goals.

It seems like there are two main strategies: exhort Canadians to 'do their part' with feel-good ads touting the one-tonne challenge, and buying emmissions credits from abroad. We can still meet our commitments with decisive action, but this plan is a joke.

I have no problem if business buys credits abroad to meet their commitments, but the government should invest tax dollars in domestic cuts only!

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Kyoto

They should have just instituted the NDP plan. It is comprehensive, has the support of environmental organisations, is fiscally sound, and has better prospects for making money instead of spending it. It also would have had support from both the NDP and the BQ, so passing it would have been no problem.

Instead they bowed to their corporate masters (and likely George Bush, given Matin's recent trip) and came up with this piece of crap.

We have to do it either way though, MMMike. We've signed on and it needs to be done. That leaves you and me carrying the burden of huge and wealthy corporations, but what else is new?

 

[Reverend Blair]

Re: Kyoto

A lot of information here.

 

[MMMike]

Re: Kyoto

Recognize the importance of maintaining support for freight rail in Canada, and increase funding for Via Rail in order to provide practical alternatives to single-car use.
Provide loan guarantees of up to $5,000 per home, with the original energy inspection co-paid by the government and homeowner. As in Manitoba, where $52 million in loans has been dispersed since 2001, local utilities may be involved in the loan collection – effectively using energy savings to pay for the work. Older homes would be particularly encouraged to participate, and a separate initiative for rental and condominium stock must exist.
Assist the 645,000 low-income households in Canada and protect them from rising energy costs by providing basic energy efficiency needs such as draft-proofing, programmable thermostats and education.
Help businesses, hospitals and schools with a large-scale institutional-commercial retrofit program. Low-interest loans would be provided to public institutions such as hospitals, and tax incentives and write-offs to corporation. Energy savings would cover the cost of loan repayments.
Help large industrial companies make the transition to sustainability with energy audits paid for by the government, resulting in permanent reductions in energy bills; and assist these companies in making sustainable change by using funds collected through the auction of emission credits.
Establish a new Model National Energy Code to reduce energy use by 25 per cent in new buildings. This code would include maximizing use of waste heat, adapting solar and fuel cells and advanced lighting standards.
Require integration between provision of Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation mortgages and construction of new homes that meet high energy efficiency standards.
Require all standards in Canada for appliances and lighting to comply with the Energy Star standard.
Help other countries develop sustainably by providing Canadian green energy technology to developing countries, as part of Kyoto’s clean development mechanism. This provides Canadian businesses with new export opportunities, helps spread the use of non-polluting technology and provides Canada emissions credits.

(From NDP's webpage on Kyoto) Never thought I'd say it, but the NDP are not far off, here. Better then the Liberal's non-plan. What I don't like is the heavy reliance on the carrot (subsidies & credits) and not enough stick. I say increase taxes on all fossil fuels, this will enhance the business case for increased efficiency and allow the market more of a role. Use these tax revenues to subsidize sustainable power and retrofit programs.