Kyoto Protocol
- Thread starter Reverend Blair
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Re: Kyoto
Here's why: The average car in Canada is 9 years old. Do you think most people drive old cars because they like them or are emotionally attached? Except for the odd old car buff, the answer is no, they drive them because they can't afford newer ones. And a great many of the people who buy new cars can't really afford them either.
They are. But to be affordable to everyone they'd have to be priced at about $3000. I certainly can't afford anything like a new car.
I've been over a great deal of Northern BC, mostly as part of the logging industry and have never seen any destroyed crown land.
It's not Kyoto that's driving the change, but consumer demand. We could speed up that change if, instead of wasting money on Kyoto, it could be diverted to technelogical research.
Here's why: The average car in Canada is 9 years old. Do you think most people drive old cars because they like them or are emotionally attached? Except for the odd old car buff, the answer is no, they drive them because they can't afford newer ones. And a great many of the people who buy new cars can't really afford them either.
They are. But to be affordable to everyone they'd have to be priced at about $3000. I certainly can't afford anything like a new car.
I've been over a great deal of Northern BC, mostly as part of the logging industry and have never seen any destroyed crown land.
Yes, I know. You've been mentioning it for a while. That's why we've been disagreeing all along. And I've shown that some of the "scientific" data you support is wrong.
It's not Kyoto that's driving the change, but consumer demand. We could speed up that change if, instead of wasting money on Kyoto, it could be diverted to technelogical research.
Re: Kyoto
If the cars were on the market more and real push made to sell them, then they would be selling. We're sold automobiles via advertising, not because of need. Do you the woman down the street from you needs a V-8 SUV? No, she's been sold an huge, unweildy gas-guzzler that handles like a truck.
The auot industry loves SUVs though...they are old, cheap technology and can be sold at a premium price.
The argument that we can't start because we haven't started yet, the real argument you are making, is because of a lack of legislation.
So buy a small used car. Plenty of them out there.
Actually you haven't. What you've shown me is that you are gullible and have been fooled by frauds and liars. Read the links.
Yeah, because everybody was switching to wind power before Kyoto. Tidal power was already big before countries began ratifying the accord. Hybrid cars were everywhere. Bio-diesel plants were a dime a dozen.
Oh, wait...all those have really come into usage since Kyoto and have been growing in popularity as more countries ratified it. There was a noticable slowdown in the technological development between the time Bush tried to scuttle the accord and Russia saved it by signing on.
If the cars were on the market more and real push made to sell them, then they would be selling. We're sold automobiles via advertising, not because of need. Do you the woman down the street from you needs a V-8 SUV? No, she's been sold an huge, unweildy gas-guzzler that handles like a truck.
The auot industry loves SUVs though...they are old, cheap technology and can be sold at a premium price.
The argument that we can't start because we haven't started yet, the real argument you are making, is because of a lack of legislation.
So buy a small used car. Plenty of them out there.
:roll:
Actually you haven't. What you've shown me is that you are gullible and have been fooled by frauds and liars. Read the links.
Yeah, because everybody was switching to wind power before Kyoto. Tidal power was already big before countries began ratifying the accord. Hybrid cars were everywhere. Bio-diesel plants were a dime a dozen.
Oh, wait...all those have really come into usage since Kyoto and have been growing in popularity as more countries ratified it. There was a noticable slowdown in the technological development between the time Bush tried to scuttle the accord and Russia saved it by signing on.
Re: Kyoto
They are on the market. My brother-in-law bought a Prius when they first came out, and then he had to buy one for his wife (my sis) because she had Prius Envy. But they have lots of money.
The auto industry loves SUVs because the buyers like them, and are willing to pay premium price for them.
I need a large vehicle for my work (and it is used, 12 years old) My wife has a small car that we use for personal transportation. But we can't afford a hybrid at this point, which was my point, because there aren't any old used ones yet.
Here we go again. You agreed that the Little Ice Age happened. Mann said it didn't, which makes one of you wrong.
They have been coming into popularity since all the PUBLICTY about the so called PROBLEM has people concerned.
They are on the market. My brother-in-law bought a Prius when they first came out, and then he had to buy one for his wife (my sis) because she had Prius Envy. But they have lots of money.
The auto industry loves SUVs because the buyers like them, and are willing to pay premium price for them.
I need a large vehicle for my work (and it is used, 12 years old) My wife has a small car that we use for personal transportation. But we can't afford a hybrid at this point, which was my point, because there aren't any old used ones yet.
Here we go again. You agreed that the Little Ice Age happened. Mann said it didn't, which makes one of you wrong.
They have been coming into popularity since all the PUBLICTY about the so called PROBLEM has people concerned.
Re: Kyoto
Well, let's start with the funniest one.
Mann never said the little ice age never happened. That's a myth created by anto-environmentalists. Find me a quote where he does. Supply the whole link because the anti-science crowd thrives on taking things out of context. The hockey stick graph has been proven to work and it matches data from many, many other sources.
McKitrick, the Exxon-paid economist who keeps trying to disprove Mann's graph, has been shown time and again to incapable of using proper procedures when trying to decipher data. He uses the wrong numbers, he uses the wrong formulas, he puts in the wrong data. The man is an idiot.
I've supplied several links showing you that you are taking the word of an inept charlatan over the work of serious scientists, yet you persist in pushing a myth.
Watch a night of TV. How many ads do you see for SUVs? How many do you see for hybrids? Buyers are buying what they are sold, just like always.
So? Lots of people need large vehicles for work. Most don't need the ones they have though.
Again, so? There will be more used ones when they get older. There would already be older used ones if the auto industry would have tried to create a market for them. They didn't try though.
Bull. We've all known about the problem since the 1980s. Most of the technology was available then. It started coming into usage at the end of the 1990s...after Kyoto was signed and countries had begun trying to figure out how to meet their targets.
Well, let's start with the funniest one.
Mann never said the little ice age never happened. That's a myth created by anto-environmentalists. Find me a quote where he does. Supply the whole link because the anti-science crowd thrives on taking things out of context. The hockey stick graph has been proven to work and it matches data from many, many other sources.
McKitrick, the Exxon-paid economist who keeps trying to disprove Mann's graph, has been shown time and again to incapable of using proper procedures when trying to decipher data. He uses the wrong numbers, he uses the wrong formulas, he puts in the wrong data. The man is an idiot.
I've supplied several links showing you that you are taking the word of an inept charlatan over the work of serious scientists, yet you persist in pushing a myth.
Watch a night of TV. How many ads do you see for SUVs? How many do you see for hybrids? Buyers are buying what they are sold, just like always.
So? Lots of people need large vehicles for work. Most don't need the ones they have though.
Again, so? There will be more used ones when they get older. There would already be older used ones if the auto industry would have tried to create a market for them. They didn't try though.
Bull. We've all known about the problem since the 1980s. Most of the technology was available then. It started coming into usage at the end of the 1990s...after Kyoto was signed and countries had begun trying to figure out how to meet their targets.
Re: Kyoto
That's ridiculous. In a free market system you don't make money pushing products the consumer doesn't want. If you try, they will vote with their feet, and go to a company that sells what they are looking for. Maybe you don't like it, but an enormous segment of the population may pay lip service to Kyoto, but they don't make the connection with their day to day lives, and they won't shell out one penny more to be "green".
That's ridiculous. In a free market system you don't make money pushing products the consumer doesn't want. If you try, they will vote with their feet, and go to a company that sells what they are looking for. Maybe you don't like it, but an enormous segment of the population may pay lip service to Kyoto, but they don't make the connection with their day to day lives, and they won't shell out one penny more to be "green".
Re: Kyoto
That's a load of crap. K-cars were the object of ridicule from their inception. It's one of the best selling cars ever. Chrysler advertised the hell out of them.
Trucks and SUVs aren't new. They've been around forever. They were a small part of the market, a niche for people who needed them, until some bright boy realized that they weren't bound by the same safety and emission regulation as cars. Suddenly they were in heavy advertising rotation. Look how these things are being sold. If people really wanted and needed them, they would have been selling like that in 1973, but they weren't.
When was the last time you saw a hybrid being advertised though? Chances are that you haven't. I can only think of one car ad that centres on fuel efficiency, and it plays so seldom that I can't even remember who makes it. Not one of the big three though, I can tell you that.
If the Canadian government would ban the advertising of SUVs and trucks, people who didn't need them would stop buying them.
That's a load of crap. K-cars were the object of ridicule from their inception. It's one of the best selling cars ever. Chrysler advertised the hell out of them.
Trucks and SUVs aren't new. They've been around forever. They were a small part of the market, a niche for people who needed them, until some bright boy realized that they weren't bound by the same safety and emission regulation as cars. Suddenly they were in heavy advertising rotation. Look how these things are being sold. If people really wanted and needed them, they would have been selling like that in 1973, but they weren't.
When was the last time you saw a hybrid being advertised though? Chances are that you haven't. I can only think of one car ad that centres on fuel efficiency, and it plays so seldom that I can't even remember who makes it. Not one of the big three though, I can tell you that.
If the Canadian government would ban the advertising of SUVs and trucks, people who didn't need them would stop buying them.
RE: Kyoto
I'm saying that people buy vehicles based on emotions and those emotions are heavily influenced by advertising.
I'm saying that people buy vehicles based on emotions and those emotions are heavily influenced by advertising.
RE: Kyoto
Ok, but maybe the better solution might be to tax some reality back into the equation. Higher gas taxes - yes, mandatory improvements in fuel efficiency - maybe, banning advertisements for SUV's - dumb idea.
BTW, I see the government finally reached a deal with the automakers to reduce greenhouse gas emmissions. A deal that won't reduce greenhouse gas emmissions (???). This liberal government obviously has no coherent plan for Kyoto. I can see it coming already - buying 'hot air' from developing countries.
Ok, but maybe the better solution might be to tax some reality back into the equation. Higher gas taxes - yes, mandatory improvements in fuel efficiency - maybe, banning advertisements for SUV's - dumb idea.
BTW, I see the government finally reached a deal with the automakers to reduce greenhouse gas emmissions. A deal that won't reduce greenhouse gas emmissions (???). This liberal government obviously has no coherent plan for Kyoto. I can see it coming already - buying 'hot air' from developing countries.
RE: Kyoto
I wrote something about a gas guzzler tax someplace on here, Mike. I don't think we can tax gas any more than we already are, but with the prices going up we shouldn't have to.
Taking the SUV and truck ads off the air would force the automakers to try to move another product. If the restrictions are put in place properly, that advertising would be for efficient automobiles.
The agreement with automakers does not have the force of law behind it. Historically they have failed to do anything unless legislated to.
I wrote something about a gas guzzler tax someplace on here, Mike. I don't think we can tax gas any more than we already are, but with the prices going up we shouldn't have to.
Taking the SUV and truck ads off the air would force the automakers to try to move another product. If the restrictions are put in place properly, that advertising would be for efficient automobiles.
The agreement with automakers does not have the force of law behind it. Historically they have failed to do anything unless legislated to.
RE: Kyoto
I know there is a Luxery tax here in BC on vehicles over 45,000 or it may be 50,000 but it is 5% but not nearly enough if you ask me. There should also be a tax on vehicles that get poor gas mileage but on a sliding scale, the lower the mpg the higher the tax or "environmental tax". But make any vehicle that gets 35- 40 mpg exempt from "environmental tax".
This needs to be implemented now but I know it is unlikely, but we are getting to close to the "its too late to do anything time". There is not much political will to do this.
I think it is very selfish of people to drive huge SUV's especially when most families could get by with an economical mini van or 4 door sedan.
Think of the world we are heading into, don't you care about the world our grandchildren and their grandchildren will have?
I am listening to Bill Good and his guest just said SUV's use 11% of the oil being used daily.
I know there is a Luxery tax here in BC on vehicles over 45,000 or it may be 50,000 but it is 5% but not nearly enough if you ask me. There should also be a tax on vehicles that get poor gas mileage but on a sliding scale, the lower the mpg the higher the tax or "environmental tax". But make any vehicle that gets 35- 40 mpg exempt from "environmental tax".
This needs to be implemented now but I know it is unlikely, but we are getting to close to the "its too late to do anything time". There is not much political will to do this.
I think it is very selfish of people to drive huge SUV's especially when most families could get by with an economical mini van or 4 door sedan.
Think of the world we are heading into, don't you care about the world our grandchildren and their grandchildren will have?
I am listening to Bill Good and his guest just said SUV's use 11% of the oil being used daily.
RE: Kyoto
That 11% daily is the problem. Cut the cylinders by a third and you cut oil usage by at least a quarter. That's without changing anything else.
That 11% daily is the problem. Cut the cylinders by a third and you cut oil usage by at least a quarter. That's without changing anything else.
Re: Kyoto
Meanguy :roll:
your post has been deleted and put in the moderators thread. If andem thinks its okay for you to join this board and make a remark like that, than it will be put back up.
Meanguy :roll:
your post has been deleted and put in the moderators thread. If andem thinks its okay for you to join this board and make a remark like that, than it will be put back up.
Re: Kyoto
This has some Kyoto in it and its down right scary 8O
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/040605_world_stories.shtml 8O
This has some Kyoto in it and its down right scary 8O
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/040605_world_stories.shtml 8O
RE: Kyoto
It's so long that I'll read it later. Local food supply is a very definite way to reduce greenhouse emissions though. So is growing your fruit and veggies and canning them for winter.
It's so long that I'll read it later. Local food supply is a very definite way to reduce greenhouse emissions though. So is growing your fruit and veggies and canning them for winter.
RE: Kyoto
I do it every year.I also like the fact i know what my kids are eating not to mention they taste so good 8)
I do it every year.I also like the fact i know what my kids are eating not to mention they taste so good 8)
Re: Kyoto
So true. This town is full of them. I have relatives and aquaintances who drive heavy duty Ford F350 diesels and Hummers and never get off the pavement. Guess they think it's macho.
Most people didn't believe it back then. We were too close to the global cooling scare. Are you suggesting that Toyota developed the Prius because the Japanese government ordered them to so they could meet their targets? :lol: :lol:
Public tastes are always changing. I can remember the early 70's. The big three advertized the hell out of their big low-quality products, but people started buying the smaller, better quality Japanese cars. The big 3 tried everything, even managing to get the goverment to impose import quotas because they were losing so much market share. Nothing worked until they started improving their product and giving the consumers what they wanted.
Pay close attention. Find a picture of the hockey stick graph. Look at it. Does it show the Little Ice Age? No? This is a graph produced by Mann himself, using his own numbers, extrapolating from his own data. I don't have to know anything about the science or the data. I rely totally on Mann's work, and ignore any detractors, Mckittrick included. Manns data, interpreted by Mann, produces a hockey stick graph that DOESN'T SHOW the little ice age. Seems to me that he's saying there wasn't one.
So true. This town is full of them. I have relatives and aquaintances who drive heavy duty Ford F350 diesels and Hummers and never get off the pavement. Guess they think it's macho.
Most people didn't believe it back then. We were too close to the global cooling scare. Are you suggesting that Toyota developed the Prius because the Japanese government ordered them to so they could meet their targets? :lol: :lol:
I remember K-cars. My wife had one ("85 New Yorker) Never heard any ridicule, only that they were innovative.
Public tastes are always changing. I can remember the early 70's. The big three advertized the hell out of their big low-quality products, but people started buying the smaller, better quality Japanese cars. The big 3 tried everything, even managing to get the goverment to impose import quotas because they were losing so much market share. Nothing worked until they started improving their product and giving the consumers what they wanted.