Kyoto Protocol

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Kyoto

I don't ignore psychology at all, Jim. The psychology of those in power is that they are at the top of a world economy based on oil. They are unwilling to give up their place at the top.

The psychology of the "scientists" (most of them lack credentials in a related field) who deny global warming and or Kyoto are funded by Exxon.

Greed and short-term self-interest are recognized, even common, psychological motivators.

Is the world economy that simple? No. The motivation behind the people who would destroy our planet instead of working to change that economy is though.

 

[jimmoyer]

RE: Kyoto

If it is that simple, then you would no longer put gas in your car because you are financing terrorists and paying the greedy oil companies.

Has your moral universe just got complicated?

Do you accept the responsibility?

Or are you just a mere puppet of the system?

And thus absolved of all original sin?

You task others to make the hard choices, but you continue to rationalize why you have to fill gas in your car?

On a more involved and higher level, people are forced to make choices much more difficult than your choice of filling gas in your own car.

It's not just a matter of greed, but rather of hard complicated choices.

The interim phase of retooling the energy industry will force great hardship on the masses as they move to more moral choices.

 

[no1important]

RE: Kyoto

The interim phase of retooling the energy industry will force great hardship on the masses as they move to more moral choices.

Bull. We have been putting this off forever thanks to the big oil, big auto, big business, right wing governments that are pro business anti environment.

We all know the day is coming when it will be too late to do anything.

Back during the man-made energy crisis in the 70's, all the governments should of passed laws to find and demand alternatives. We have the technology. Who cares about the cost. Its only money. Just paper. Debts are all artifical, a stroke of the pen they are gone. The financial markets are another way of "control" as well and serve no useful purpose. Just to create "control" and "power" for the few.

Money and greed have destroyed us and this planet. Plain and simple. It is time to eliminate money and the markets period.

No government has the balls to stand up to them(big oil, big business) and say enough!

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Kyoto

The energy crisis of the 1970s wasn't all man-made. It was at least partly the result of the US reaching its own peak oil. That gave the OPEC countries power, and they used it.

If we would have kept on developing and instituting new technologies from that point on...if Droolin' Ronnie Rayguns had never come to power with his agenda of raping the environment for quick cash...we would be way farther ahead right now.

Oh, and Jim? It is that simple. The people at the top are discouraging change. Some are actively fighting it. The biggest reasons that they give are lies about the science (lies paid for by Exxon) and the economy. Anybody with even a minimal grasp of history understands that every technological advancement in the history of our species has led to increased wealth, so their cries of developing and instituting new technologies are false at best.

 

[no1important]

RE: Kyoto

I know it was not all man made I was just "raging" (neo cons never seem to listen and always interupt with a loud voice) last night after campaigning for local NDP candidate and trying to explain/arguing with neocons about Kyoto and other environmental issues.

I did learn two things though most people know very little about Kyoto and most people do not want a Federal Election. I know its unscientific but thats the theme so to speak that came across to me.

 

[jimmoyer]

RE: Kyoto

I agree that there is no leadership concerning energy issues, but all of you ignore the hard pain transition has on the masses.

For every wealth increasing invention there was quite an interim phase of great pain for millions of people being displaced by the new invention.

And any solution to easing that pain has never been adequately financed or covered and never will be.

You all are really too simple about this.

I think the industry is figuring out and inventing and discovering all the time and just as you would not shoot yourself in the foot by no longer pumping gas in your car,so it is for these industries as they quietly explore the transistion you say is so easy to do.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Kyoto

I agree, Jim. Just the other day I had an irate typewriter salesman begging for coins and whiskey at my door.

Eitherr that or people just move on. What happened to the great carriage builders of the 19th Century? Mr Deusenburg, the Buick brothers, and the Maseratis all went belly-up because of Mr. Ford's assembly line, did they? Enzo never graduated from bicycles to cars and Ferdinand never made an airplane wing into the most successful auto design ever.

Who suffers, Jim?

The autoworkers? Nope...they don't care whether they put a gas engine or a fuel cell into a car.

The mechanics? Nope...they don't care what breaks. They would prefer that it not be filled with oil though.

The salespeople? Are you kidding? A new angle for selling things...they love it.

So who loses? Exxon? Cry me a river.

 

[Jo Canadian]

Re: Kyoto

Well on the brighter side of things at least people are finding new ways for the alternative energy problem. Alberta has even set up a unique way of experimenting with AE:

Making the most of a *Poopy* situation

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Kyoto

With all the crap that spews out Ralph Klein's mouth, maybe they can finally make some use of him.

 

[gftrcoach]

Re: Kyoto

Kyoto is a way for diplomats to make it look like they are doing something, and the US "called" the bluff.
We in Canada and the USA have the cleanest air and water, ESPECIALLY considering our levels of industrialization.
Just got back from India, the place is one giant garbage dump. That's a data statement, not a disparagment of Indian people.
There is a lot of work to do, and crippling the nations that do the best job already is just stupid.
I live in the US now, used to live in Alberta. Kyoto was ill conceived and should be cancelled completely and start another round to create something sane.
Gleb

 

[Reverend Blair]

Re: Kyoto

We in Canada and the USA have the cleanest air and water, ESPECIALLY considering our levels of industrialization.

Along with Austrailia, Canada and the US are the worst per capita emitters of greenhouse gas on the planet.

Your argument just fell to bits.

 

[gftrcoach]

Re: Kyoto

We in Canada and the USA have the cleanest air and water, ESPECIALLY considering our levels of industrialization.

Along with Austrailia, Canada and the US are the worst per capita emitters of greenhouse gas on the planet.

Your argument just fell to bits.

"Per capita", the great socialist equalizer. Thank God we produce more CO2, it means we are working, producing, innovating, creating all those nasty things that allow us to pay so much foreign aid.

Kyoto was kibbles n'bits and you worship at that alter. You like the bits and pieces of nonsense that promotes the notion of global warming, so my argument is in good company in your world...

Gleb

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Kyoto

It's not a socialist equalizer at all, it is the only way to compare countries with disparate populations. Much of the CO2 we produce is not for any sort of industry anyway, it's from things like huge SUVs and the obtuse refusal of the anti-environmentalists to do simple things like insulating their houses.

Much of the greenhouse gas that does come from industry isn't a sign of production so much as a sign of wasteful business practices.

As economic argument, even if there was any validity to what you saying, you have a very short-sighted view. If we are spending all of our money trying to grow crops during droughts and floods and rebuilding our houses after extreme weather events our economy will collapse.

Conversely, introducing conservation measures and new sources of energy will stimulate the economy.

Your argument still doesn't hold up, gft. If you want to talk about science, give it a shot. Your business and economic knowledge doesn't hold up to even a cursory examination though. Being wasteful and short-sighted while refusing to adopt new technologies is a business plan that would get you laughed out of every bank on the planet.

 

[gftrcoach]

Re: RE: Kyoto

Rev, it's NOT the "only way to compare" in fact it creates chaos trying to compare a country that produces wealth vs one that is a third world economy. It makes no sense when you compare 750 million people jammed into a small area vs 300 million north of Mexico. Socialists like you apparently love the apparent inequities that it supposidly points out, but it's a false theory.

It's not a socialist equalizer at all, it is the only way to compare countries with disparate populations. Much of the CO2 we produce is not for any sort of industry anyway, it's from things like huge SUVs and the obtuse refusal of the anti-environmentalists to do simple things like insulating their houses.

Much of the greenhouse gas that does come from industry isn't a sign of production so much as a sign of wasteful business practices.

As economic argument, even if there was any validity to what you saying, you have a very short-sighted view. If we are spending all of our money trying to grow crops during droughts and floods and rebuilding our houses after extreme weather events our economy will collapse.

Conversely, introducing conservation measures and new sources of energy will stimulate the economy.

Your argument still doesn't hold up, gft. If you want to talk about science, give it a shot. Your business and economic knowledge doesn't hold up to even a cursory examination though. Being wasteful and short-sighted while refusing to adopt new technologies is a business plan that would get you laughed out of every bank on the planet.

The sky is falling the sky is falling! When your entire assumptions require an hour to untangle to get to truth, well, I simply have better things to do. You have no faith in ingenuity, in mankind, in business creating whatever needs to be created. Go ahead and live broke on the bleeding edge.

Gleb

 

[Reverend Blair]

Re: Kyoto

When your entire assumptions require an hour to untangle to get to truth, well, I simply have better things to do.

It took you an hour to read that? I guess that explains your ignorance of science and your insistence that being short-sighted and wasteful while refusing to adopt modern technology is somehow good for the economy.

 

[jimmoyer]

RE: Kyoto

gftrcoach?

You're right about a lot of Reverend Blair's unanalytical acceptance of statistics supporting his bias, but even you know, as the President of General Electric, recently said,"Green is green.", playing of course on the fun of American paper money the greenback being green, heh heh.

Yeah. Winding down now.

Yes hallelujah !!

Green is finally green.

 

[gftrcoach]

Re: Kyoto

When your entire assumptions require an hour to untangle to get to truth, well, I simply have better things to do.

It took you an hour to read that? I guess that explains your ignorance of science and your insistence that being short-sighted and wasteful while refusing to adopt modern technology is somehow good for the economy.

Dude, it would take years to deprogram you from your disasterous view of the world. Thank goodness you waste your time on line here, keep it up. Try to get to 12,000 posts by the end of the year.

Bye

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Kyoto

Yawn. Try to stay on topic, trollboy.

 

[Jo Canadian]

Re: Kyoto

Here's an interesting report about climate change by the people who have been witnessing it first hand. These people have been saying that "the sky is falling" for almost two decades now because they were the first to be affected by the impact of global warming and the precipitation of industrial chemicals into their food chain.

CONTRIBUTIONS OF INUIT ECOLOGICAL KNOWLEDGE
TO UNDERSTANDING THE IMPACTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE ON THE BATHURST CARIBOU HERD IN THE KITIKMEOT REGION, NUNAVUT

excerpt:

Within these complex ecological linkages, Qitirmiut (Inuit of the Kitikmeot region) have observed increasing temperatures since the 1950s that have led to earlier spring-melt, later fall freeze-up and more variable and unpredictable weather. Other environmental impacts of a warming climate include thinner ice, lower water levels, richer vegetation, more extreme heat days and sporadic freeze-thaw cycles. Locals have linked these impacts to more incidences of caribou drowning, overheating (or “suffocating”) or becoming exhausted as well as shifting their migration routes and locations of calving grounds on a local scale. Finally, Qitirmiut have observed a general increase in the quantity and quality of forage on the tundra.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Kyoto

Northern people and people on low-laying islands like Tuvalu are already experiencing a lot of problems, Jo. I doubt the naysayers will accept it until a Major city like New York goes under though. Even then there will be those that claim that it's martians or sunspots or god or something.