Kyoto Protocol

[Jay]

RE: Kyoto

Good points Henry.

I've never believed in Kyoto in its current form, and in reality I think it should be done on per country basis. Some need to pollute, some need to pollute less. But I have always believed that a Tech revolution will save us, not internationalism, "draconian cutbacks" and simply picking up a moving it over to China….

It's a sticky issue for sure.

 

[MMMike]

RE: Kyoto

Kyoto is putting some of the pieces in place that will drive this green technology revolution Jay. By allocating pollution credits it finally starts to put a price on pollution. Once you do that the market will try to capitalize... essentially there will be money to be made reducing ghg emmissions.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Kyoto

That's the real truth of it, MMMike. Everybody bitches about credits, but no country can afford to buy them in the long term. Instead it's better to earn them in other places by providing (at a profit to your corporations) technology. That's what Japan is doing.

As for the technological revolution that Jay is yakking about, such a revolution will not happen without an outside impetus because we have an entrenched technology that weilds great political and economic power. Kyoto provides that impetus.

Most of the technology is off the shelf stuff that has been around since at least the 1970s and is only now being developed for commercial use.

 

[no1important]

RE: Kyoto

A good start would be to make most public transportation (buses) use electric trolley buses as well. I know they can not be used on all routes but I think most routes they could be.

Only 9 North American cities (Boston, Philadelphia, Dayton, Seattle, San Francisco, Edmonton, Vancouver, Mexico City and Guadalajara) still use them and 40 years ago it was over 100.

It does not seem like much but most cities have public bus services and if 75% plus were converted back to electricity it could help. It is quiet and clean. We here in Vancouver are getting new ones Made in Winnipeg actually.

Present and former cities that had trolley bus service. Click on your city for history.

Running a fleet of Emission free Trolley Buses

A pic another pic

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Kyoto

We also have the option of hydrogen-powered buses. That's a good option for parts of Canada prone to ice storms etc. because they can also serve as emergency generators.

 

[jimmoyer]

RE: Kyoto

From what I understand, Reverend Blair, the infrastructure to build hydrogen cell technology for cars and buses is quite a huge investment and the scientists are not sure it has passed the test that all energy programs must test.

What is that test?

Thou shalt not provide energy for the people if it takes more energy to create it.

 

[no1important]

RE: Kyoto

Clean Transit

A hybrid bus uses a small diesel engine and electric generators/motors that provide propulsion for the bus, similar to a hybrid car. Hybrid buses can reduce greenhouse gas emissions by about 40 per cent over a standard diesel bus, cut other harmful emissions by 65 to 97 per cent and reduce noise levels considerably.

TransLink will retrofit two buses with the hybrid diesel electric propulsion system.

I hope this succeeds. Hopefully more cities will look into it as well as returning to trolley buses. Were buying 228 new trolley buses.

and Translink is also testing out:

-diesel-electric hybrid
-compressed natural gas
-biodiesel
-diesel buses with diesel particulate filters

New technologies

“TransLink expects to purchase more than 1,000 buses over the next eight years, and results from this test program will help us identify the most suitable and cost-effective technology to service the region".

 

[jimmoyer]

RE: Kyoto

I'm all for it.

Prediction.

As we wean ourselves from the Devil OIL, you will find gas pump prices will go higher and higher to compensate for the loss in demand.

 

[Jo Canadian]

Re: Kyoto

 

[no1important]

RE: Kyoto

Study: More CO2 now than past 650K years

WASHINGTON -- Scientists are looking back to a time when "greenhouse gases" were not the problem they are today, and it is giving them a clearer picture of how people are making it worse.

A team of European researchers analyzed tiny air bubbles preserved in Antarctic ice for millennia and determined there is more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere now than at any point during the last 650,000 years.

Those measurements are disturbing: Levels of carbon dioxide have climbed from 280 parts per million two centuries ago to 380 ppm today. Earth's average temperature, meanwhile, increased about 1 degree Fahrenheit in recent decades, a relatively rapid rise. Many climate specialists warn that continued warming could have severe impacts, such as rising sea levels and changing rainfall patterns.

click link at top for full article.

Well I think we need to re do Kyoto and make it a hell of a lot tougher.

For a start:

The governments of the world, if they are serious about reducing pollution and contributing to global warming should pass laws to ban new vehicles having fossil fuel combustable motors after 2010. If automaker/oil companies do not like, well to bad so sad. We have the technology to run vehicles on cleaner more effecient fuels. We need to drastically re think our thought process that we need gasoline combustable engines.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Re: Kyoto

From what I understand, Reverend Blair, the infrastructure to build hydrogen cell technology for cars and buses is quite a huge investment and the scientists are not sure it has passed the test that all energy programs must test.

What is that test?

Thou shalt not provide energy for the people if it takes more energy to create it.

You can pretty much forget about the oil sands in Canada and oil shale in the US then, Jimmy.

You are kind of right on hydrogen though...if it is stripped from natural gas using energy produced from coal, oil, and natural gas, not only is it energy intensive, but it's no cleaner than what we are doing now. Forget about any plan that the Bushites have put forth...they don't want it to be viable anytime soon and are protecting their vested interests for later.

The thing is that isn't the only way to get hydrogen. The best model in most of the world is to set up micro hydro-electric facilities that produce hydrogen. This can also be done with wind, wave, and tidal generators in coastal areas. The best model we have so far is actually Iceland's, but most of us don't have that kind of geo-thermal energy available.

Most of the infrastructure problem is the private sector's. They don't want to make the investment. The systems do exist though.

The private sector is a bit of a joke anyway. They were screaming that an ethanol requirement in Manitoba would bankrupt them all a couple of years ago. It's the same requirement that's common in the US and a Manitoba-based chain has been selling it for years. When the oil industry screams that something isn't good, and can't possibly work, that's usually a pretty good sign that it is good and will work.

 

[no1important]

Re: Kyoto

CBC news this morning had a really good segment on how the Sweded do things. The city lets workers have free use of bikes, how all buses and some trains are run using fuel from dead cows and how they plan to use vegatation for the same, How recycled garbage is used for heating, how bio fuels for vehicles is readily availble and how children in pre school are taught these things.

The rest of the world can learn a lot of things from them.

 

[jimmoyer]

RE: Kyoto

I wish the individual states would do more of the same.
It is too unweildy to do by the federal government.

 

[no1important]

Re: Kyoto

Ocean changes to cool Europe

A teaser:

Changes to ocean currents in the Atlantic may cool European weather within a few decades, scientists say.

Researchers from the UK's National Oceanography Centre say currents derived from the Gulf Stream are weakening, bringing less heat north.

Their conclusions, reported in the scientific journal Nature, are based on 50 years of Atlantic observations.

They say that European political leaders need to plan for a future which may be cooler rather than warmer. [/teaser]


Arctic ice melting, Arctic rivers moving faster. mmm I wish the anti-Kyoto and Global warming deniers would wake up and smell the coffee. :evil:

 

[jsf73]

RE: Kyoto

The facts are simple and sad. Most Canadians care little about climate change.

The US may not be in Kyoto, but they spend far more and are far more organized at implementing energy efficiency initiatives than we are here in Canada.

We have to steal or rather more appropriately "license" many US led initiatives such as EnergyStar, including the fairly recent "EnergyStar Homes" because we couldnt sell builders on our own premier technology R2000 Homes.

Canada is falling short in every category and sector in meeting the Kyoto targets and so is just about every other signatory. Almost every government lacks the political will to force changes hat will lead to significant reductions and they lack the finances to pay enough incentives to get people to act in large enough numbers.

It is very depressing for those of us in conservation, especially given the attitude at every level of Government.

This winter there has been some positive outlook but it is more driven by financial necessity than concern for the environment.

 

[Karlin]

Re: RE: Kyoto

Some more links to cool alternative energy technologies -

Ocean Power Delivery Ltd has developed a novel offshore wave energy converter called Pelamis ; the Pelamis has a similar output to a modern wind turbine and is being tested at the European Marine Energy Centre in Orkney.
It is anticipated that future `wave farm' projects would consist of an arrangement of interlinked multi-machines connected to shore by a single subsea cable. A typical 30MW installation would occupy a square kilometre of ocean and provide sufficient electricity for 20,000 homes. Twenty of these farms could power a city such as Edinburgh.
http://www.oceanpd.com/

And a cool little hydrogen powered scooter, with removable powerplant so you can run a table saw at the cabin in the woods!
These small H pwrplants will be in every home someday.
http://www.envbike.com/[/quote] ...| January 2005 [url]http://tinyurl.com/eyrvc

Karlin



PS - One interesting idea about Global Warming, since it appears obvious now that it is being done ON PURPOSE, is that the "conveyor" ocean currents that allow Britian and Europe to be warm will STOP, they will be ice-bound by 2020. Have you noticed how much further NORTH they are than most of where Canadians live?
That will mean America has less competition as dominator of the globe, and there will be all sorts of business opportunites during the freeze-up.
Climate turmoil throughout Eurasia will play into Bushevite globalist plans.

link: the heat before the cold?
"Extreme heat in France [in 2003] kills 15,000"
http://tinyurl.com/blh4x
- is an example of the changes occuring, the theory about freezing Britian still holds

popular Science magazine articles on global warming -
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/v7/search

 

[Karlin]

Re: Europe freezing from global warming??

http://tinyurl.com/cyvjm

To expand on my last post, here is another link, this one from "Girls Go Fishing" [have you seen their calender?].

Measurements of ocean currents in the North Atlantic reveal that they have weakened by about 30 per cent since 1992.
"over the past 50 years, the [warm currents] were reasonably constant. We were surprised that the circulation in 2004 was so different from previous estimates"

"the weakening [of warm currents] could be the first signs of an accelerating trend that could eventually lead to a more drastic change, including a complete shutdown of the currents. If this were to happen, average temperatures in Britain could fall by between 4C and 6C, leading to winter temperatures similar to Newfoundland in Canada, which is on the same latitude as the UK"

What I did learn is that Britian isn't "that much further north than Canada", in fact this article says they are the same. Ok, I can learn, thats why I am so smart now! [lol].

Karlin

 

[no1important]

RE: Kyoto

Pollution analysis skewed to favour Bush: study

A teaser:

WASHINGTON — Researchers who work for the U.S. Congress said the Environmental Protection Agency skewed its analysis of air pollution legislation to favour President George W. Bush's plan.

EPA's analysis "works in favour of" Bush's plan by overstating some costs of competing bills, said a report Friday by the Congressional Research Service. The 2002 Bush plan, dubbed Clear Skies, remains stalled in Congress. [/teaser]

Not much of a surprise really.

 

[jimmoyer]

RE: Kyoto

Isn't it amazing how the democracies of the western world are not coming up with the kind of leadership that can inspire ??

The problems are perhaps more complex than we citizens can appreciate.

It's always easier for the person NOT tasked with the job to say how EASY the job is.

May be that's the only way change can happen.

All I know is that the world is ready for a more intelligent environmental union and simple majorities of people will be ready for something more than the shallow arguments of our political parties.

 

[no1important]

Re: Kyoto

Don't go 'wet' on Kyoto promises

A teaser:

Prime Minister Tony Blair placed climate change at the top of the Group of Eight leaders' agenda this year because, although it is one of the most important long-term challenges facing the world, action on it is urgent. The G8 Science Academies said in June that average global temperatures could rise by as many as 5 degrees Celsius by the end of this century - and higher in parts of Africa. For every degree increase, Africa stands to suffer a 4-per-cent loss of GDP. The scale of the problem is enormous. But the science has given us enough information to know that deep cuts in emissions of gases such as carbon dioxide will be needed to stabilize the climate, so we slow or stop the temperature rise.[/teaser]

Action is Urgent is right. I hope they actually get something done about this, rather than talk, talk, and talk.