Justin Trudeau says abortion rights trump MPs' freedom to vote their conscience

[gerryh]

If we allow a woman to have an abortion, then we must compensate that at least with adequate public education on the subject of woman-on-man sexual assault. The two following links seem to indicate that while the public is generally well educated on the subject of man-on-woman and adult-on-child sexual assault, the general population remains ignorant of woman-on-man sexual assault.

College women rape college men but few men tell - Tucson News Now

Seattle woman 'rapes sleeping man who wakes up to find her on top of him pinning him down' | Daily Mail Online

I would agree that women in such circumstances should not be allowed to have an abortion without the victim's consent. But, if we insist that she must maintain her full freedom to abort, then at the very least we need better public education on the subject of sexual assault and make it clear that that applies equally whether it is male-on-male, female-on-female, male-on-female, or female-on-male sexual assault and not make it seem like women cannot rape or men cannot be raped, or that an erection equals consent, etc.

and out of the total number of abortions performed in Canada, how many apply to your scenario? I have a feeling it is less than the number of abortions because of a woman being raped or incest, which is an already small percentage of abortions performed in Canada.

In a perfect world there would be no rapes,no contraception failures and there no need for abortions at any stage, and all women would know how far along their pregnancy has progressed. However, this is not a perfect world. There have been women giving birth unexpectedly who were unaware they were even pregnant!! Some just thought they were getting fat

There are women who believe it was merely menopause. That is when more than the usual down syndrome children are conceived Apparently many reproductive systems become defective with age. One very young couple, chose a a more permanent solution when they were blessed with 4 down's syndrome children. They were a young couple and the vasectomy was a new procedure at that time. (Back then it took a consultation before every vasectomy and they were rarely done on men in their 20's......... how things have changed!!)) The surgeons made an exception in their case feeling, 4 in 4 years was probably a genetic defect rather than an accidental happening. He went for a vasectomy reluctantly, being a good Catholic with a very enthusiastic push from his wife.

I will continue to shoot of my mouth, as I am neither ignorant about the subject nor obtuse. You need to accept I do know a fair amount about the subject.

bringing up scenario's from decades ago does nothing for your argument. Today, there is genetic testing.Also, IMNSHO, downs syndrome is NOT a reason to abort, and yes, there are Down Syndrome children in my family.


Considering you use decades old examples to shore up your argument, I would say that you DON"T know that much about abortion in todays Canada.

 

[DaSleeper]

By the way, I chose to keep my twin girls, who were born at 8 months. Besides the danger of them not surviving, and the possibility of brain damage (which was minimal and damage to the liver and kidneys I wanted them. It was MY choice. We were fortunate, after spending a couple of months in hospital, the liver & kidneys came around. However, it took years of special treatment to give them new pathways to the brain. They were especially gifted. I say were, because, one was killed in a motor vehicle accident in her early 20's. The other gave us two grandchildren.
.

https://www.educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/abortion-no-legal-time-limits

Excuse me .....but did you not read my last post?? I was given the choice of keeping my girls or not....and if I am pro-choice, and could have chosen to "murder" a piece of tissue smaller than my finger tip, what does that tell you.

Also, do you realize the fertility rate of many countries is way down? Most people want babies and many are unable to conceive....so what does that do to your argument.

Those two statements just prove that you're an absolute selfish B...h female!

 

[Cannuck]

Statesmen?

Much better Das...we wouldn't want you to look foolish or anything

 

[Machjo]

and out of the total number of abortions performed in Canada, how many apply to your scenario? I have a feeling it is less than the number of abortions because of a woman being raped or incest, which is an already small percentage of abortions performed in Canada.

Why does it matter how many apply to my scenario? I don't disagree that few abortions would fit my scenario, but we can make some distinctions here. Though probably more women get pregnant getting raped than raping, they at least enjoy control over the foetus. Though woman-on-man rape is less common (albeit far, far ,far more common than the general public realizes or likes to admit), a man whose rapist impregnates herself during the rape has no control over the feotus. Worse yet, the rapist enjoys that control and so can victimize him yet again.

Am I saying that we should prohibit a rapist from aborting without the victim's consent? I used to tay that, but past discussions indicate that that probably won't fly. So what's the next-best alternative? Well, considering how woman-on-man rape makes for a hilariously thigh-slapping romantic comedy skit in films in such a way that it would be scandalous if the gender roles were reversed, perhaps expanding the definition of consent in sex-education courses to include male consent to sex with women would be one effective way to reduce the probability of women putting men in such a predicament.

Would this eliminate woman-on-man rape? Probably not any more than such an education has eliminated man-on-woman rape. However, it might at least give film-makers secon thoughts about treating woman-on-man rape as if it were a joke. That would already be a big step forward. That way, even if we decide that a woman gets to choose no matter what, we at least increase the probability that a man who does not want to find himself in the position of having his foetus aborted won't.

Since we're anonymous on this forum, without getting into detail, I myself am a victim of woman-on-man sexual assault from many years ago. And I was at least 20 years old and she a couple years younger. I was physically stronger than her, and she didn't physically pin me down. Instead, she used emotional coercion to first get me into a non-sexual relationship through begging and pleading, and eventually raised the anti to get me into a sexual relationship through similar coercion but with the added pressure of a threat of suicide at one point. Could I have ended the relationship before having sex with her? Sure, if I could resist her begging and constant pleading. Could I have refused sex once it had reached that stage? Sure I could have in principle, but in the belief that she could kill herself if I did. Again, I didn't have the strength to resist emotionally under such pressure. We did end the relationship eventually, but only after a failed suicide attempt on my part such that she'd worn me down so much over time.

Just to say that the man does not need to be a child and the woman does not need to be physically stronger to manipulate him into sex contrary to popular feminist beliefs.

 

[gerryh]

Why does it matter how many apply to my scenario? I don't disagree that few abortions would fit my scenario, but we can make some distinctions here. Though probably more women get pregnant getting raped than raping, they at least enjoy control over the foetus. Though woman-on-man rape is less common (albeit far, far ,far more common than the general public realizes or likes to admit), a man whose rapist impregnates herself during the rape has no control over the feotus. Worse yet, the rapist enjoys that control and so can victimize him yet again.

Am I saying that we should prohibit a rapist from aborting without the victim's consent? I used to tay that, but past discussions indicate that that probably won't fly. So what's the next-best alternative? Well, considering how woman-on-man rape makes for a hilariously thigh-slapping romantic comedy skit in films in such a way that it would be scandalous if the gender roles were reversed, perhaps expanding the definition of consent in sex-education courses to include male consent to sex with women would be one effective way to reduce the probability of women putting men in such a predicament.

Would this eliminate woman-on-man rape? Probably not any more than such an education has eliminated man-on-woman rape. However, it might at least give film-makers secon thoughts about treating woman-on-man rape as if it were a joke. That would already be a big step forward. That way, even if we decide that a woman gets to choose no matter what, we at least increase the probability that a man who does not want to find himself in the position of having his foetus aborted won't.

Since we're anonymous on this forum, without getting into detail, I myself am a victim of woman-on-man sexual assault from many years ago. And I was at least 20 years old and she a couple years younger. I was physically stronger than her, and she didn't physically pin me down. Instead, she used emotional coercion to first get me into a non-sexual relationship through begging and pleading, and eventually raised the anti to get me into a sexual relationship through similar coercion but with the added pressure of a threat of suicide at one point. Could I have ended the relationship before having sex with her? Sure, if I could resist her begging and constant pleading. Could I have refused sex once it had reached that stage? Sure I could have in principle, but in the belief that she could kill herself if I did. Again, I didn't have the strength to resist emotionally under such pressure. We did end the relationship eventually, but only after a failed suicide attempt on my part such that she'd worn me down so much over time.

Just to say that the man does not need to be a child and the woman does not need to be physically stronger to manipulate him into sex contrary to popular feminist beliefs.

In the abortion debate, this whole thing is a red herring. Like the "what about rape and incest" argument. All it does is cause the debate to hang a hard right and takes away from the fact that 10's of thousands of baby's are killed every year. It's called infanticide and your argument takes away from the big picture.

 

[Machjo]

In the abortion debate, this whole thing is a red herring. Like the "what about rape and incest" argument. All it does is cause the debate to hang a hard right and takes away from the fact that 10's of thousands of baby's are killed every year. It's called infanticide and your argument takes away from the big picture.

Still, would you not agree that promoting more gender-neutral sex-assault education could be a politically less controversial way to reduce the number of abortions by even a few babies? Politically, I don't see abortion becoming banned any time soon, even in cases of a woman sexually assaulting a man (perhaps where we could find the strongest case for prohibiting abortion without the father's consent). With that in mind, why not promote more gender-neutral sex-assault education? By doing so, we might not eliminate woman-on-man sex assault (just as is the case in the reverse), but we might reduce it at least somewhat by giving both sexes food for thought when it comes to consent. Even if that avoid a handful of unwanted pregnancies a year, would that not already be a step forward?

 

[DaSleeper]

I think that if you check, you will find that sex assault or rape constitutes only 15 % of the reasons given for abortion...

Reasons given for having abortions in the United States

Why Women Choose Abortion - Statistical Breakdown

 

[gerryh]

I think that if you check, you will find that sex assault or rape constitutes only 15 % of the reasons given for abortion...

Reasons given for having abortions in the United States

Why Women Choose Abortion - Statistical Breakdown

1% said they were "a victim of rape"

 

[Machjo]

I think that if you check, you will find that sex assault or rape constitutes only 15 % of the reasons given for abortion...

Reasons given for having abortions in the United States

Why Women Choose Abortion - Statistical Breakdown

That's still 15%.

As for the other 85%, of course I disagree with the choice. But at least they are both willing prticipants. If the man chooses to sleep with the woman, gets her pregnant, and then has to face the fact that she wants an abortion, well, he put himself in that situation. Same when a woman chooses to sleep with a man. But when a man rapes a woman, he forces her into a predicament through no fault of her own. Even then I disagree with the choice of aborting, but at least I can sympathise more with her plight in that she didn't choose to put herself in that situation. The same applies to a man who is raped by a woman. I won't say one is worse than the other. On the one hand, a man who is raped by a woman has no say in whether she keeps the baby. At least a woman raped by a man or even a woman who rapes a man still maintains that choice. On the other hand, a woman who is raped by a man is forced to have a foetus conceived within her, and so must choose to abort at the risk of her own health, something a man raped by a woman or even a man who rapes a woman doesn't need to contend with. In that sense, rape can be traumatic regarless of gender.

But again, that 15% is forced into the situation, and that's where more gender-neutral sexual-consent education could be beneficial.

 

[DaSleeper]

1% said they were "a victim of rape"

My bad Gerry, it IS only 1%

I didn't reread what i typed .....the way I figure this happened is that the 5 is on the same key as the % sign and bad coordination as I pressed the shift key.....

 

[gerryh]

That's still 15%.

As for the other 85%, of course I disagree with the choice. But at least they are both willing prticipants. If the man chooses to sleep with the woman, gets her pregnant, and then has to face the fact that she wants an abortion, well, he put himself in that situation. Same when a woman chooses to sleep with a man. But when a man rapes a woman, he forces her into a predicament through no fault of her own. Even then I disagree with the choice of aborting, but at least I can sympathise more with her plight in that she didn't choose to put herself in that situation. The same applies to a man who is raped by a woman. I won't say one is worse than the other. On the one hand, a man who is raped by a woman has no say in whether she keeps the baby. At least a woman raped by a man or even a woman who rapes a man still maintains that choice. On the other hand, a woman who is raped by a man is forced to have a foetus conceived within her, and so must choose to abort at the risk of her own health, something a man raped by a woman or even a man who rapes a woman doesn't need to contend with. In that sense, rape can be traumatic regarless of gender.

But again, that 15% is forced into the situation, and that's where more gender-neutral sexual-consent education could be beneficial.

Didn't read the links, did ya, dummy.


1% said they were raped. NOT 15%.

 

[JLM]

My bad Gerry, it IS only 1%

I didn't reread what i typed .....the way I figure this happened is that the 5 is on the same key as the % sign and bad coordination as I pressed the shift key.....

I understand where Gerry wouldn't. :wink:

 

[gerryh]

I understand where Gerry wouldn't. :wink:

You understand where Gerry wouldn't what?

 

[Machjo]

Didn't read the links, did ya, dummy.


1% said they were raped. NOT 15%.

That's still 1%. Doesn't every one count?

 

[gerryh]

That's still 1%. Doesn't every one count?

Rape is used by the murder supporters as a reason for abortion. At 1% or less, it ius a distraction from the big picture. It is used as a distraction. Something you support them doing.

 

[Machjo]

Rape is used by the murder supporters as a reason for abortion. At 1% or less, it ius a distraction from the big picture. It is used as a distraction. Something you support them doing.

I'm just being realistic. Abortion won't be legalized any time soon. But if we can at least better educate people about sexual assaults, that would already be a big step forward.

 

[gerryh]

I'm just being realistic. Abortion won't be legalized any time soon. But if we can at least better educate people about sexual assaults, that would already be a big step forward.

educating people about sexual assaults is another topic. You want to do that, then start a topic about that. It is a "look over there" when it comes to abortion.

 

[Machjo]

educating people about sexual assaults is another topic. You want to do that, then start a topic about that. It is a "look over there" when it comes to abortion.

Offering religious education courses in school to make people think more about the question of when human life starts could help too to make them think more about such moral questions. Some people might engage in anonymous sexual relations due to depression or other mental-health problems. Maybe provide more funding to sex-addiction clinics to help people who suffer from compulsive sexual behaviours.

Yes, I'm in favour of banning all medically-unnecessary abortions. But until you can think of a way to convince our politicians to do that, then the ball's in your court to provide an alternative solution and not just whine with no results.

Some might be more prone to careless sex when drunk. Maybe provide more funding for clinics that help alcoholics too.

 

[gerryh]

Offering religious education courses in school to make people think more about the question of when human life starts could help too to make them think more about such moral questions. Some people might engage in anonymous sexual relations due to depression or other mental-health problems. Maybe provide more funding to sex-addiction clinics to help people who suffer from compulsive sexual behaviours.

Yes, I'm in favour of banning all medically-unnecessary abortions. But until you can think of a way to convince our politicians to do that, then the ball's in your court to provide an alternative solution and not just whine with no results.

Some might be more prone to careless sex when drunk. Maybe provide more funding for clinics that help alcoholics too.

wow, So, in reality you are a "pro choice" supporter doing everything you can to undermine the "pro-life" side. Nice to see you have finally come out.

 

[JLM]

You understand where Gerry wouldn't what?

Understand.