Israel...

[dancing-loon]

At some point you are going to see, in this twisted world that we now live in, that these atrocities will only get worse, not better.

The ultimately sad and sorrowful thing is that no-one cares now for it has been going on too long and is now part of their everyday life and will never change.

Yes, no one cares, or dares to interfere. It is the Palestinians' lot to be the sacrificial lamb, so the Jewish State can prosper and grow. Sometimes it is better to accept one's fate in order to preserve what little is left, especially one's dignity. Dignity.... in the face of mockery and brutality! Reminds me of Christ's ordeal.

 

[scratch]

Yes, no one cares, or dares to interfere. It is the Palestinians' lot to be the sacrificial lamb, so the Jewish State can prosper and grow. Sometimes it is better to accept one's fate in order to preserve what little is left, especially one's dignity. Dignity.... in the face of mockery and brutality! Reminds me of Christ's ordeal.

This is a terrible thing, I agree but sadly and for their own reasons Israel will continue to do what they are doing. For them payback could be infinite.

 

[Zzarchov]

Yes, no one cares, or dares to interfere. It is the Palestinians' lot to be the sacrificial lamb, so the Jewish State can prosper and grow. Sometimes it is better to accept one's fate in order to preserve what little is left, especially one's dignity. Dignity.... in the face of mockery and brutality! Reminds me of Christ's ordeal.

Yes, no one dares interfere. Except the majority of the world. Except those who have to put up with the Palestinian "dream" of crushing everyone and everything.

Palestinians are Jordanians, that was Jordanian law as well. But Jordan won't help them anymore, too many times had jordan's helping hand been shot and bloodied.

Egypt used to run Gaza, it won't take the area back if you wrapped it in billion dollar bills and it blockades Gaza just as much as Israel (they both do).

Palestinians suffer because anytime anyone tries to help (Jordan, Egypt, Israel -see camp david) they just get attacked and assaulted.

It is a region run by groups who's sole reason to exist (and have money and power) is to fight Israel. They have no incentive to make peace, war keeps them in power and in money and in comfort (At the expense of other Palestinians).

Its a fun fact that more Muslims are involved in supressing Palestine than Jews, but its never reported that way.

 

[ahmadabdalrhman]

Yes, no one cares, or dares to interfere. It is the Palestinians' lot to be the sacrificial lamb, so the Jewish State can prosper and grow. Sometimes it is better to accept one's fate in order to preserve what little is left, especially one's dignity. Dignity.... in the face of mockery and brutality! Reminds me of Christ's ordeal.

that very impossible

the muslims win in the last ...


prophet muhammad say :-

Its authentic hadith:

Sahih Muslim, Book 41, Number 6985:
'The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: `Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him'; but the tree Gharkad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.'



this tree Gharkad

can you tell me

how can to prophet muhamad know the Jews will fight the muslims ?

and

how can to prophet muhamad know the Jews will grew tree Gharkad ?


just the question that I not know when the muslims win ?

 

[scratch]

that very impossible

the muslims win in the last ...


prophet muhammad say :-

Its authentic hadith:

Sahih Muslim, Book 41, Number 6985:
'The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: `Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him'; but the tree Gharkad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.'



this tree Gharkad

can you tell me

how can to prophet muhamad know the Jews will fight the muslims ?

and

how can to prophet muhamad know the Jews will grew tree Gharkad ?


just the question that I not know when the muslims win ?

You really like the word `kill` do you not!

 

[dancing-loon]

Yes, no one dares interfere. Except the majority of the world. Except those who have to put up with the Palestinian "dream" of crushing everyone and everything.

It would be closer to the truth, if you would substitute "Palestinian dream" with Jewish/Zionist dream. Please, help me not to toss your argument aside, by providing at least three examples of "the majority of the world" trying to stop the violence. America doesn't qualify as a neutral country.

Palestinians are Jordanians, that was Jordanian law as well.

Which law are you talking about?

But Jordan won't help them anymore, too many times had Jordan's helping hand been shot and bloodied.

Give example, please. It does not really matter, or would make a difference, whether they were originally Jordanians, or Jordan is not helping them. That is a fog argument. Nevertheless, Jordan has helped enormously by taking in huge numbers of Palestinian refugees. What other help are you thinking of? They couldn't very well slap a neighbor who is armed past his teeth, could they? They'd risk being annihilated themselves, or setting off WWIII.

Egypt used to run Gaza, it won't take the area back if you wrapped it in billion dollar bills and it blockades Gaza just as much as Israel (they both do).

Aw, the poor Jews! So, at least they want the Gaza strip! Is that a sacrifice?? Sorry for the sarcasm. Anyway, that too, has nothing to do with Israel occupying Palestinian land and driving the people off their property. Are you seriously implying, because Egypt at one time ran the Gaza strip and didn't want it, Israel is entitled to that strip? Jordan and Egypt are doing the one sensible thing: they keep their hands off that disgusting situation.

Palestinians suffer, because anytime anyone tries to help (Jordan, Egypt, Israel -see camp David) they just get attacked and assaulted.

That is sheer nonsense! Another unfounded and lame argument. It has been the Jews who always boycott or renege any agreement. The basic demand from the Palestinian people, give us back our land, is always being side-stepped, just like you try to throw in Jordan and Egypt are at fault.

It is a region run by groups who's sole reason to exist (and have money and power) is to fight Israel. They have no incentive to make peace, war keeps them in power and in money and in comfort (At the expense of other Palestinians).

I seriously doubt the sanity of that argument! But, it is typical for many Israelis and Americans. I believe you are honest, Zzarchov, but brainwashed. WHY are the Palestinians not permitted to try and fight off their occupiers and land stealer and destroyer of their people and property? Try and put the shoe on the other foot, and then see what would happen!!!
Under "groups' you mean the Hamas? They are not foreigners, as far as I know. They were actually democratically elected by the Palestinian people.
By the way, isn't war and violence what also keeps Israel in power? Israel is very lucky, though, they have America on their side, aiding and building them up. It would take Russia and China together to provide equal assistance to the Palestinians to measure up to the Jewish threat.

Its a fun fact that more Muslims are involved in suppressing Palestine than Jews, but its never reported that way.

I would be interested in some proof of that statement. Again, you are implying therefore it is o.k. that Israel keeps up the fight for 60+ years. :roll:

I will post my real and documented answer in the following post. This one would become too long and tiring otherwise.

 

[ahmadabdalrhman]

You really like the word `kill` do you not!

the one who need to kill my inevitably I will kill him

 

[dancing-loon]

Origin Introduction

this is the link I mentioned above. It is my feeling the authors made an honest attempt to establish a realistic picture of the forever on-going Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Here is the introductory sample to give you an idea who and what is involved:

[SIZE=+3]Introduction[/SIZE]​

The standard Zionist position is that they showed up in Palestine in the late 19th century to reclaim their ancestral homeland. Jews bought land and started building up the Jewish community there. They were met with increasingly violent opposition from the Palestinian Arabs, presumably stemming from the Arabs' inherent anti-Semitism. The Zionists were then forced to defend themselves and, in one form or another, this same situation continues up to today.
The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true, as the documentary evidence in this booklet will show. What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).
The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists' intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)
In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn't matter. The Arabs' opposition to Zionism wasn't based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people.
One further point: being Jewish ourselves, the position we present here is critical of Zionism but is in no way anti-Semitic. We do not believe that the Jews acted worse than any other group might have acted in their situation. The Zionists (who were a distinct minority of the Jewish people until after WWII) had an understandable desire to establish a place where Jews could be masters of their own fate, given the bleak history of Jewish oppression. Especially as the danger to European Jewry crystalized in the late 1930's and after, the actions of the Zionists were propelled by real desperation.
But so were the actions of the Arabs. The mythic "land without people for a people without land" was already home to 700,000 Palestinians in 1919. This is the root of the problem, as we shall see.​

It's a long story, and I haven't read the whole thing yet. It is also quite possible that earthasone has already posted this same article in one of the earlier thread pages. In that case, my apology for repeating it.

I come back at a later time to respond to the other posts addressed to me.
​

 

[scratch]

the one who need to kill my inevitably I will kill him

You problem.
Me not.

 

[ahmadabdalrhman]

You problem.
Me not.

hmmmmm

If the army come to your country even the burglary your country not kill him ?

you are become good kid ! ( but not for your country )

 

[lone wolf]

hmmmmm

If the army come to your country even the burglary your country not kill him ?

you are become good kid ! ( but not for your country )

Do you speak either of the two official languages?

 

[Zzarchov]

Dancing Loon, did you miss this:

Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).

Bought, as in legally. You know what would have stopped that? Not selling your land to them if you don't want them having it.

There doesnt' seem to be any problem with accepting "zionist money", just in giving them what they paid for and was accepted as a fair deal by both parties.

Thats not any different than Amish buying land.

In fact that literally is the "zionist myth" , they bought land , legally. And then Arabs hating the idea of Jews living on that land and outnumbering them (aka, Hating legal immigrants with the bigotry that entails), waged a war of aggression.

The "simply not true" story is being told event by event by someone who is just justifying the Jewish version as good behaviour by Palestinians by saying "hating legal immigrants is ok if they dilute your culture".

 

[lone wolf]

I have alway questioned how did they come to 'buy' the land? Was the sale made in desperation or under duress? Was it "unoccupied" as in how vacant houses are destroyed? See ... there is deception and outright fabrication on both sides of the fence and both camps are far from blameless.

 

[scratch]

hmmmmm

If the army come to your country even the burglary your country not kill him ?

you are become good kid ! ( but not for your country )

I have no more to say.

 

[Zzarchov]

It would be closer to the truth, if you would substitute "Palestinian dream" with Jewish/Zionist dream. Please, help me not to toss your argument aside, by providing at least three examples of "the majority of the world" trying to stop the violence.

You mean besides the UN initiatives? Besides the ungodly amount of resources going to this one minor conflict compared the the major ones that ravage africa?

The special treatment given to Palestinian and only Palestinian refugees? as if no other group of people who live in worse circumstances deserve care?

America doesn't qualify as a neutral country. Which law are you talking about?Give example, please.

That would be Jordanian citizenship laws as Palestine was part of Jordan, until the Black September fighting with PLO forces waging war on Jordan. Jordan is the rightful owner of the west bank, but it relinquished all claim to it, Israel couldn't give it back it tried.

Likewise, Egypt didn't want the Gaza strip back, it accepted the Sinai and didn't want Gaza.

It does not really matter, or would make a difference, whether they were originally Jordanians, or Jordan is not helping them. That is a fog argument. Nevertheless, Jordan has helped enormously by taking in huge numbers of Palestinian refugees.

Yes what great help, Its like Canada taking in Canadian refugees and then denying them full rights. How noble of Jordan, creating a slave caste out of its own citizenry. But no, this is Israels fault for ever buying land that Palestinians legally chose to sell.

What other help are you thinking of? They couldn't very well slap a neighbor who is armed past his teeth, could they?

You mean like how they have attacked Egypts government? Or attacked Lebanons government? You know, everyone who WAS on their side until the Palestinians stopped being reasonable and decided "You know what would make Palestine better? If it also included chunks of Lebannon, Egypt and Jordan?"

They'd risk being annihilated themselves, or setting off WWIII.Aw, the poor Jews! So, at least they want the Gaza strip! Is that a sacrifice?? Sorry for the sarcasm.

No, Israel doesn't want the Gaza strip, it occupied it because attacks were launching from it, it also took the Sinai. When it made peace with Egypt, Egypt only wanted the Sinai, it didn't want Gaza.

Thats why Gaza is blockaded, Israel doesn't want it and won't occupy it. Egypt wont take it back, and it wont' govern itself (hence the constant civil war).

Anyway, that too, has nothing to do with Israel occupying Palestinian land and driving the people off their property. Are you seriously implying, because Egypt at one time ran the Gaza strip and didn't want it, Israel is entitled to that strip?

1, lets not forget Israel was attacked here, multiple times. That still doesn't mean Israel is entitled the Gaza strip. But guess what, Israel doesn't want the Gaza strip, it isn't occupying the Gaza strip.

The Gaza strip is independant. What it isn't is allowed to trade with Israel OR Egypt, BOTH are blockading it because it keeps attacking BOTH of them.

Jordan and Egypt are doing the one sensible thing: they keep their hands off that disgusting situation.

No they aren't, they are both just as active in keeping the situation as it is. They want Israel to keep the territories because it means they don't have to pay to occupy them. Egypt is everybit as involved in blockading Gaza as Israel.

That is sheer nonsense! Another unfounded and lame argument. It has been the Jews who always boycott or renege any agreement.

Really? Thats not how historical records show it, Israel says stop shooting us, the Palestinian government says "Ok", then a suicide bomber shows up when half the palestinian government defects and forms a new terrorist group. Thats history, its easily verifiable.

The basic demand from the Palestinian people, give us back our land, is always being side-stepped,

No its not, its being pretty evenly dealt with. The problem is they also want back the land that other Arabs owned and sold to the Jewish trust, trying to claim that no one had a right to sell their own property, to Jews anyways. Take Gaza, no please, take it. Israel has tried to give that place to anyone else for years. But no one else will take it, and it won't run itself, huge battles took place when it tried.

just like you try to throw in Jordan and Egypt are at fault.I seriously doubt the sanity of that argument! But, it is typical for many Israelis and Americans. I believe you are honest, Zzarchov, but brainwashed.

Fault? Are you not familiar with say Black September? or Egyptian terror bombing groups? Jordan and Lebannon and Egypt and Israel are all united on keeping the Palestinians from killing them all, because sometimes the Bad guys aren't jews.

I know its hard for you to believe that a human being who's muslim could be as bad as you think human beings who are Jewish happen to be, but it can happen.

WHY are the Palestinians not permitted to try and fight off their occupiers and land stealer and destroyer of their people and property? Try and put the shoe on the other foot, and then see what would happen!!!

They are, in fact they have tried multiple multiple times and it keeps getting worse everytime they play the part of the aggressor. ITs one of the reasons Israel does so well, is because it usually takes the role of the defender. Everytime it plays the aggressor (say lebanon recently) it gets whooped. ITs continued victory is due to Israel being the defender.

As for Stolen, the very next post you show explains it wasn't stolen, it was purchased, but Palestinians didn't like the idea of their neighbours being allowed to sell their neighbours own property without the consent of these anti-immigrant palestinian groups.

Under "groups' you mean the Hamas? They are not foreigners, as far as I know. They were actually democratically elected by the Palestinian people.

When did I claim they are foreigners? The American government isn't foreigners either, does that mean you think everything the Bush administration did was for the Benefit of Americans? That they didn't have their own selfish needs at heart?

Bush and Cheney were also democratically elected by the American people.

By the way, isn't war and violence what also keeps Israel in power?

No, Israel is a democracy. Thats why it makes peace every chance it gets. It gave back the Sinai pennisula (with all its oil) which is a huge chunk of land, back to Egypt when Egypt said "ok, lets have peace", why? It only took the Sinai (and Gaza) because Egypt attacked them from it. When Egypt didn't want to fight anymore, it gave it back.

Israel is very lucky, though, they have America on their side, aiding and building them up. It would take Russia and China together to provide equal assistance to the Palestinians to measure up to the Jewish threat.

Really? Cause the Palestinians had the Americans, the British and the French on their side when this all started, and that didn't help them. Israel is fully self sustaining on its own, lets not forget Israeli industry makes more than enough weapons for its own needs.

I would be interested in some proof of that statement. Again, you are implying therefore it is o.k. that Israel keeps up the fight for 60+ years. :roll:

Keeps up the fight? You mean keeps being attacked and makes peace every chance it gets? You mean like the peace offer it make to Palestine that was basically everything Palestine wanted?

I will post my real and documented answer in the following post. This one would become too long and tiring otherwise.

And that post contradicts itself in about 10 lines.

 

[Zzarchov]

I have alway questioned how did they come to 'buy' the land? Was the sale made in desperation or under duress? Was it "unoccupied" as in how vacant houses are destroyed? See ... there is deception and outright fabrication on both sides of the fence and both camps are far from blameless.

Its not that complicated, the fund had alot of western money (in that the exchange rate and cost of living was very favourable), while Palestine was slums. The people there were approached as individuals, individuals who as individuals, would be just as happy taking a lump sum and moving somewhere nicer, with better schools and job opportunities for their families.

Its no different than when a mining company buys up a small town. 90% leave with the first offer, the other 10% refuse to leave until the town can't sustain them anymore.

Except in the Israeli case they were quite happy with 90% as that gave them a majority still.

 

[dancing-loon]

Hi, Zzarchov and lone Wolf;

read this article about the land purchases way back, when Palestine was still under the Ottoman/Turkish rule.

"Before the 20th century, most Jews in Palestine belonged to old Yishuv, or community, that had settled more for religious than for political reasons. There was little if any conflict between them and the Arab population. Tensions began after the first Zionist settlers arrived in the 1880's...when [they] purchased land from absentee Arab owners, leading to dispossession of the peasants who had cultivated it." Don Peretz, "The Arab-Israeli Dispute."

As early as 1891, Zionist leader Ahad Ha'am wrote that the Arabs "understood very well what we were doing and what we were aiming at'...[Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, stated] `We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly'...At various locations in northern Palestine Arab farmers refused to move from land the Fund purchased from absentee owners, and the Turkish authorities, at the Fund's request, evicted them.
More here....Early History

I don't believe for a moment the Jews now pay for the land they take. That's unheard of.

It got late tonight. I'll pick up on the rest of the thread tomorrow.

 

[Zzarchov]

Ok, even that article with its made up unverifiable facts and quotes, stresses the Jewish community bought the land.

Also, the Arabs weren't fighting the Jews because the Arabs were ruled by the Turks. It was part of the Ottoman empire.

That quote you just posted said the Arabs left because there were jobs elsewhere, and not in Palestine. So they left.

This is attributed to some evil scheming by a secret society of Jews (yet somehow outsiders know exactly what they said in these secret meetings),

But if we ignore the blunt truth about how that points more ot Ottoman economic policies than Jewish scheming, so what?

Nothing in that "secret scheme" is in the least bit illegal, especially in that part of the world or time. Don't hire people of a different ethnic background? Are you aware how the world works? Are you aware that Arabs certainly didn't hire Jews either? Neither of them hired Christians and Christians didn't hire either one.

In the rest of the world, NINA signs were in high demand.


These evil schemes always boil down to "The Jewish version of events is correct..but we don't like how reality portrays us in a bad light, let us attempt to rationalize our actions"


Lets look at some more things from the site:

It points out how becoming a Turkish province didn't make it anyless Arabic, that seems like a blatant lie.

Either that or who cares if its Israel now, apparently being part of a Jewish state won't make it any less Arabic or Islamic either.

*

It then blames the Ottoman land code as "Stripping the land from peasants".

No, they were peasants, they never owned the land and they knew they didn't own it. Thats why they kept fighting against their nobility. Thats the nature of being a peasant, its no different anywhere in the world.

It was exactly the same in Ireland, the same in Japan and the same in most of Europe. The only place it was different was America, and only because America just gave them land that belonged by natives "Come to America, own your own land" was why so many people emigrated to America. As in the rest of the world, only the rich owned land. In America, land was owned by anyone willing to shoot a native and steal it.

Either way, the Ottomans were the legitmate government and they had the right to make any land code they wanted. Their government apparently didn't make the land any less Arab or Islamic after all.

And they had a right to allow Jewish Immigrants to buy land.

Or do you think whites in Canada should have the right to deny non-white legal immigrants the right to buy land or live here, and chase their children out of Canada? are the rules different for Palestinians than everyone else?

The laws of farmshands are not unique to Palestine and continued in Canada for some time. Those who wander the fields picking apples do not usually own the fields. They take a job to pick apples.

***

Their laughable explanations about the harmony in Palestine is flat out wrong. Jews were persecuted in North Africa too. They were allowed to immigrate to the Ottoman empire for simple reasons. The Arabs were constantly attempting to overthrow the Ottoman government (AFTER immigrating into the empire) and were considered disloyal. The Jewish population was considered extremely loyal (as the Ottomans sheltered them, and took in refugees from Russian Pograms) and were allowed into the Area to keep it loyal.

***

The whole thing is laughable. It talks about the common problems of the 19th and early 20th century as if they were some special case of Palestine.

You know what? That happened everywhere else in the world, EVERYWHERE. And everyone else got on with their lives. Treating Palestine like is a special case is whats prolonging this conflict and dragging it out.

 

[dancing-loon]

that very impossible
the muslims win in the last ...

prophet Muhammad say :-
​

Its authentic hadith:

Sahih Muslim, Book 41, Number 6985:

The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: `Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him'; but the tree Gharkad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

this tree Gharkad

can you tell me how can the prophet Muhammad know the Jews will fight the Muslims?

and

how can to prophet Muhammad know the Jews will grow tree Gharkad ?
just the question that I not know when the Muslims win?

Thanks for your points of view. My answer is, "I have no idea!" Each religion has its prophets and their prophesies. Whether any of it has come true yet, I don't know. But people like to tinker with it and try to find meaning in it. I think the Muslims should accept the Jews, and the Jews should leave the Muslims alone, and the Christians should mind their own business!!

 

[Zzarchov]

Muhammed knew the Jews would fight the Muslims because his planned expansion of the Muslim faith included Jewish majority regions (like Jerusalem). For his religion to grow it meant fighting other religions (like the Christians, Jews and Zoroastians)