Is there proof of life after death

[Vanni Fucci]

That is a matter of opinion. I think it is a deterrent to apostasy based upon fear, the fear of going to Hell. I think it is very much based upon peoples' fears.

I see your point, but still disagree...

The fear of death is one that man has wrestled with since the beginning of our emergence as a conscious and sentient species...it is a real fear that none can deny, as everything eventually dies...

The fear of going to hell is a construct of the church, entirely fabricated to illicit a response, to maintain ones faith to avoid eternal torment...

One is human nature, the other is the nature of religion to strive by whatever means necessary to keep to themselves their faithful adherents...

 

[ahmadabdalrhman]

I know one become near from death he was remember his life before

 

[SirJosephPorter]

The fear of death is one that man has wrestled with since the beginning of our emergence as a conscious and sentient species...it is a real fear that none can deny, as everything eventually dies...

Vanni Fucci, I am not sure that the fear of death is all that universal. Sure, it is hard wired into all the creatures, survival of the self is essential for survival of the species. The species which did not have the fear of death, even if one were to evolve, would quickly die out.

However, even stronger instinct is the survival of the species. It trumps the fear of death. Thus a mother lioness, or a mother bear, wolf, or mother of almost any species will vigorously fight the attack on her cubs sometimes even to death. Thus a female bear usually will not attack a male bear; he is much bigger than her. However, if she has cubs, she will attack the male bear without any hesitation, chase him away, risking her life in the process. There have been instances in nature, where mother gave up her life trying to defend her cubs.

Fear of death is strong, but that is not the strongest force in the nature, survival of the species is.

Religion very properly reinforced this fear of death, it was necessary for survival of the species. The current pro life or anti-abortion movement has the survival of species at heart. While it may claim to be religion based, I think it is very much evolution based.

But as you correctly observed, everybody dies. That is why religion has to make some provision for the after life.

 

[scratch]

the fear of death is one that man has wrestled with since the beginning of our emergence as a conscious and sentient species...it is a real fear that none can deny, as everything eventually dies...

vanni fucci, i am not sure that the fear of death is all that universal. Sure, it is hard wired into all the creatures, survival of the self is essential for survival of the species. The species which did not have the fear of death, even if one were to evolve, would quickly die out.

However, even stronger instinct is the survival of the species. It trumps the fear of death. Thus a mother lioness, or a mother bear, wolf, or mother of almost any species will vigorously fight the attack on her cubs sometimes even to death. Thus a female bear usually will not attack a male bear; he is much bigger than her. However, if she has cubs, she will attack the male bear without any hesitation, chase him away, risking her life in the process. There have been instances in nature, where mother gave up her life trying to defend her cubs.

Fear of death is strong, but that is not the strongest force in the nature, survival of the species is.

Religion very properly reinforced this fear of death, it was necessary for survival of the species. The current pro life or anti-abortion movement has the survival of species at heart. While it may claim to be religion based, i think it is very much evolution based.

But as you correctly observed, everybody dies. That is why religion has to make some provision for the after life.

why?

 

[Vereya]

16 pages of discussing things that are next to impossible to prove... why don't we just make a pact to meet in this thread about 2 ot 3 years after we all are dead? That will surely prove it...

 

[Vanni Fucci]

16 pages of discussing things that are next to impossible to prove... why don't we just make a pact to meet in this thread about 2 ot 3 years after we all are dead? That will surely prove it...

Yeah sorry...I don't think I can make it...

 

[SirJosephPorter]

why?

Scratch, your question wasn’t all that clear. Do you mean why did religion have to make some provisions for afterlife? I will assume that is what you want to know.

The answer is simple. Life was rough in old days. People spent most of their time obtaining food for survival; they had little time for anything else. Diseases were rampant, natural disasters such as floods, droughts etc. would result in heavy human toll. Life was cheap and life expectancy was low.

When church promised a glorious, wondrous, eternal after life, that gave people something they could look forward to, it made the burden of life that much easier to bear.

Concept of afterlife differs markedly from religion to religion. In Islam, after life is one huge party, with endless feasting and merrymaking (plus terrorists get 72 virgins each to enjoy). At the other extreme, Hinduism offers only escape from this world, not much more. Hinduism believes that unless somebody achieves nirvana, salvation, he is doomed to come back to earth again and again, subject to the curse of life again and again. Once he achieves Nirvana, he is freed from the endless cycle of life and becomes the part of the spiritual world.

Whatever the form of afterlife, religion had to offer some carrot, some incentive to make the life on this world more bearable, to give its followers something they could look forward to.

 

[Cliffy]

Ah! but what is the origin of religion? What was humanity's motivation for creating such a mind numbing, creativity destroying concept? God or gods, what is the difference?

Are humans incapable of being their own creators? Or, is religion a construct to stifle human greatness? I fear the latter is true. Religion requires obedience; a prerequisite to controlling the masses. Before there was a ruling class, there was spirituality; a personal journey toward the truth of one's own existence. Now we have the war god of the desert - Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah - with adherents at each other's throats for over a thousand years. These believers have created hell on Earth.

It is time humanity knew the truth of its own existance, then there would be no need for religion and the bloodshed that it propogates.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Ah! but what is the origin of religion? What was humanity's motivation for creating such a mind numbing, creativity destroying concept? God or gods, what is the difference?

Cliffy, origin of religion is clear, at least to me. In the prehistoric days, man understood very little of nature. To him things like a storm, lightening, thunder were truly terrifying and had no explanation. They al seem to be emanating from sky.

So it was quite reasonable for the prehistoric man to postulate Gods who lived in the sky who arrange to send down thunder, lightening etc.

You may be surprised, but I have nothing but respect for the man who first thought of religion. He must have been a deep, profound thinker. The fact that he was totally wrong is beside the point; I think he came up with the best possible explanation for his time.

So when prehistoric man came up with the primitive religion, it was quite understandable. What is not understandable is the later variants of religion, such as Islam, Christianity etc. which have been responsible for millions of deaths.

 

[Cliffy]

SirPorter,

I can understand the need for some despots to create religions of fear. What is not understandable is the sheeple who need to be controlled. The collective neuroses of so many millions, possibly billions of insecure, self-loathing sheeple is astounding to me.

We are our own creation. We have the power to not only create our own reality but our very existence. We can change the world, to create it without all this violence and suffering but, until the majority of people accept their own divinity, we are stuck with religion, pain and suffering.

 

[MHz]

SirPorter,

I can understand the need for some despots to create religions of fear. What is not understandable is the sheeple who need to be controlled. The collective neuroses of so many millions, possibly billions of insecure, self-loathing sheeple is astounding to me.

We are our own creation. We have the power to not only create our own reality but our very existence. We can change the world, to create it without all this violence and suffering but, until the majority of people accept their own divinity, we are stuck with religion, pain and suffering.

If you have that sort of power a little hindrance from something as weak as religion should be no problem at all (overcoming the effects of). You could most likely overcome it in a week at most......So, in the meantime is that you standing to the side with your hands in your pockets? What is that called again, ah yes, doing nothing.

 

[Cliffy]

MHz,

You seem to think that I am saying that as an individual, we can change the world. To a small degree that is true, Gandhi comes to mind. But our reality is a matter of co-creation. I can change my perception of reality. I can create my experience of life. I can also chose how I perceive the world and what is happening. But it will take multitudes to accept the truth of their divinity to change reality from one of violence and suffering to one of love and peace.

The belief in jesus (the prince of peace) has brought us 2000 years of blood shed and pain. A thousand years or so of the muslim religion (the religion of peace) has brought about bloodshed and pain. What is wrong with this picture? Religion has hidden our greatness from ourselves so that we may be controlled by despots - sheeple, slaves and concubines for the ruling class and priesthoods.
Time to shed the shackles that bind you and embrace real freedom - freedom from religion and oppression.

 

[Cliffy]

Oh, I forgot to ad: if I were standing on the sideline with my hands in my pockets, would I be able to type out this message? NO. If someone doesn't tell you that you are in a prison, what would motivate you to try to escape?

 

[Vanni Fucci]

SirPorter,

I can understand the need for some despots to create religions of fear. What is not understandable is the sheeple who need to be controlled. The collective neuroses of so many millions, possibly billions of insecure, self-loathing sheeple is astounding to me.

We are our own creation. We have the power to not only create our own reality but our very existence. We can change the world, to create it without all this violence and suffering but, until the majority of people accept their own divinity, we are stuck with religion, pain and suffering.

Hey Cliffy,

Welcome to the forum.

The only rationale I can think of that makes any sense for why mankind created religions was to encourage obedience of the laws passed by the ruling class.

You'll find this time and time again in the ancient world, that when a new codex of laws is introduced into society it is enacted upon the authority of a deity.

Examples of this are:

Code of Hammurabi
Egyptian Book of the Dead
The Torah
The Gospels
Quran
The Avesta

Exceptions to this are where the respective cultures, Greek and Roman were more secular in their statehood:

Draconic Code
Solonic Code
Twelve Tables

 

[Cliffy]

You'll find this time and time again in the ancient world, that when a new codex of laws is introduced into society it is enacted upon the authority of a deity.

Vanni Fucci,
Which is why I steered away from the "civilized" version of history and religion at a very young age. At 27, I moved out into the forest to live with the wilderness. I eventually explored native spirituality because it was more closely aligned with my experience of living with the wild. I did not restrict my investigations into truth to just that, but delved into many areas of endeavour including metaphysics, world religions, spirituality, parapsychology, etc.But in the end, I had to come back to me, my personal experience of life. All of what I learned from reading, talking to people, attending ceremonies and rituals and just communing with nature all pointed back to me, my personal responsibility in creating my personal reality (within the greater collective reality).From this place it is not much of a leap to see the stifling prison that religion has created on the minds of humanity. It has become an imperative to speak out my truth, that religion needs to be abandoned if humanity is to evolve to the next level of consciousness. We have been stuck here too long and need to move on.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

It has become an imperative to speak out my truth, that religion needs to be abandoned if humanity is to evolve to the next level of consciousness. We have been stuck here too long and need to move on.

Couldn't agree more...:smile:

Da Vinci and Galileo would have ushered in the new era of reason and science were it not for the power of the Church...

Darwin did a fine job of making the Church squirm as well...but again, the Church was just too strong...

The Church is getting weaker every day...new scientific discoveries are shedding light on the origins of our universe...

Maybe not in my lifetime, but soon enough, we will, as a species, finally be able to put this ridiculous superstition and fear behind us and finally live in harmony as humanity alone...

 

[Scott Free]

YouTube - Kurt Wise's science career was destroyed by religion

 

[Cliffy]

Ah! If it were only possible to retrieve those wrecked minds. In my own case, I was indoctrinated into the catholic fairy tale. But somehow (I can't explain it) I was able to resist the mind numbing assault on my sensibilities to come out of my childhood with a healthy inquisitive nature. At first, I suppose, I was just trying to prove them wrong, that god did not exist. But in researching the information I needed for the argument, I discovered that many minds had grappled with this issue long before me and come to very different conclusions than those they set out to establish.

Which is why I decided to live in the wilderness - I wanted to get as far away from all the lunatics, their religions and their closed minds as I could. What I didn't realise was that I was running away from myself and ended up discovering the truth of my own existence. By that I mean that it makes sense to me, but I do not expect anybody else believe it. But for the sake of discussion, I put forth my truth in the hope that others will be inspired to set out on their own journeys of discovery.

Somewhere out there within all the variations of philosophy, psychology and spirituality lies a truth that is suited to someone. That is the attraction for me - it is open ended and ever changing as one experiences life. Nothing is static.

 

[scratch]

Very well said, Cliffy.
regards,
scratch

 

[eanassir]

When a professor of the comparative religion gives his lecture, he speaks in a way superior to all religion, and starts to criticize the various religions; he does not belong to any religion; he only displays the various concepts of various religions. He has no doctrine at least during his lecture. This attitude will give him some pride and self satisfaction.​

Many men here have given their opinion about religion, in the way a professor of comparative religion gives his lecture.​

They say man invented the religion: primitive at the start, then the religion that man invented became more complicated.And then the atheism appeared which is more advanced than the religion that man invented; this is according to their imagination of the matter.​

But what do they say when man in fact did not invent the religion? And that God – be glorified – sent His envoys: the apostles to warn man of the consequences of the association with God?​

This is the religion of God: God is One without associate; this is from the start; and there were many variations according to distortion of this religion of God by different factors.​

This is in the Quran 2: 213​

كَانَ النَّاسُ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً فَبَعَثَ اللّهُ النَّبِيِّينَ مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ وَأَنزَلَ مَعَهُمُ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ لِيَحْكُمَ بَيْنَ النَّاسِ فِيمَا اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ فِيهِ إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوهُ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ فَهَدَى اللّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لِمَا اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ مِنَ الْحَقِّ بِإِذْنِهِ وَاللّهُ يَهْدِي مَن يَشَاء إِلَى صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ​

The explanation:
(People were one nation [of monotheists, following one doctrine: at the time of Adam, then they deviated from the monotheism and associated some other things or beings with God], ​

and God sent prophets with the glad tidings and the warning, and sent down the [Heavenly] Scripture with them, indicating the true [religion]; ​

that the [prophet] might judge people concerning their deviation [from monotheism]; ​

but none deviated therefrom save those [religious leaders] given the [Scripture] even after the manifest [signs] had come to them, due to their 'greed and their wronging each other';

so God, with His permission [He gives permission to His angels to inspire the kind-hearted], guided the believers to the truth from which they deviated;

for God guides whom He pleases to a standard path [of monotheism.] )​