Iraq-Vietnam comparison inevitable

moghrabi

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Iraq-Vietnam comparison inevitable

by Scott Taylor
Monday 06 June 2005 7:40 AM GMT



It has been two years now since the first signs became evident that the US occupation of Iraq would become a bloody fiasco.

On 26 May 2003 the White House announced that the interim military Governor of Iraq Jay Garner was to be replaced with Ambassador Paul Bremer.

At this juncture, the frenzy of widespread post-invasion looting had petered out to a state of violent anarchy, and three weeks earlier, President George Bush had declared "mission accomplished" aboard the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln.

Nevertheless, as the random civil disobedience dissipated, it soon became clear that a nucleus of armed resistance was forming among certain angry elements of the Iraqi population.

In predominantly Sunni urban centres – such as Falluja – the fighters were successful in forcing the American patrols off the streets.

Only weeks after they had toppled Saddam, the US troops who were told they would be hailed as liberators, were being gunned down in brutal ambushes which left civilian bystanders cheering and dancing.

Although US State Department officials repeatedly stated that Garner had not been fired his replacement by Bremer was an acknowledgment that America's post-war plans had already gone astray.

Military commanders admitted that US troops were experiencing an increase in hostile engagements, but the Pentagon dismissed these as "acts of desperation by Saddam loyalists".

Any suggestion that the situation was slipping towards a guerrilla war was vehemently denied.

However, a month later, the Iraqi fighters launched a series of coordinated attacks, which left eight American soldiers dead on 1 July 2003.

The following day, a visibly perturbed President Bush had challenged the rebels to "Bring it on!" Apparently Bush's comments struck a receptive chord among the insurgents – and "bring it on" they certainly did.

By 28 August 2003, the post-war death toll of American soldiers had climbed to 139 – one more than had been killed during the actual combat operations.

Given the mounting scale and scope of the conflict, US generals were by now using the term "quagmire" to describe the worsening situation.

The fighters, however, the rebels were still referred to as Saddam loyalists, and any suggested parallel with Vietnam was dismissed with the prediction that resistance would collapse once the elusive ex-Iraqi dictator had been captured.

Fast forward to December 2003, when American soldiers proudly pulled a dishevelled, bewildered Saddam from his primitive dirt "hidey-hole".

Contrary to US expectations, the televised appearance of the former president in humiliating captivity did nothing to diminish the guerrilla attacks against occupation forces.

By early 2004, once it became clear that America was involved in a protracted guerrilla war, the comparison of Iraq to the US experience in Vietnam could no longer be logically denied.

Of course there are fundamental differences. In terms of terrain, the triple canopy jungles of the Mekong delta are certainly not the barren expanses of the Syrian desert, and unlike the Vietcong guerrillas, the Iraqi insurgents are not supported by the regular formations and heavy weaponry fielded by the North Vietnamese Army.

And, although there were factious ethnic divisions involved in the South East Asia of conflict, they cannot be compared to the deep-rooted fear and distrust between Iraq's polyglot religious and ethnic minorities.

It must also be noted that when America first became involved in the Vietnam war it was to prop up the existing South Vietnamese government and to bolster its already formed military units.

Nevertheless, throughout that decade-long conflict, despite the wholesale provision of training, modern weapons and equipment, the US attempt to make the South Vietnamese Army a viable combat force proved to be a singular failure.

When pitted against their fellow countrymen, the South Vietnamese units tended to lack resolve.

Contrast the Vietcong and North Vietnamese soldiers who often displayed a suicidal courage – which prompted many a US general to ask: "Why can't our gooks fight like their gooks?"

Despite the failure of its policy in Vietnam, the Pentagon has seized upon the "Iraqification" of Iraqi security forces as the solution to battling the insurgency in Iraq.

It is hoped that by December of this year the Iraqi police force and army will be sufficiently trained and equipped so as to enable the US military to begin withdrawing the majority of their occupation forces.

However, the Iraqi Security Forces have yet to display any consistency in combat against insurgents and their loyalty has often been called into question.

Unlike the South Vietnamese soldiers who would quietly desert their trenches, there have been a number of occasions when Iraqi police have turned against their American military counterparts in the middle of a firefight.

The open collusion between many of the police units and the insurgents is widely known to US soldiers on the ground, and for that reason the security forces are not equipped with night vision goggles, armoured vehicles or heavy weaponry.

Nevertheless, the Pentagon continues to pin its hopes on a Vietnam-style "peace with honour" pullout based on its ability to build an Iraqi army by Christmas.

Already one can hear exasperated US generals wondering aloud: "Why can't our hajis fight like their hajis?"


Former Canadian soldier Scott Taylor is the editor of Esprit de Corps military magazine and a veteran war correspondent. He has visited Iraq 20 times since August 2000 and is the author of Spinning on the Axis of Evil: America's War against Iraq and Among the Others: Encounters with the Forgotten Turkmen of Iraq. Last September he was held hostage for five days in northern Iraq by Ansar al-Islam Mujahadin.

The opinions expressed here are the author's and do not necessarily reflect the editorial position or have the endorsement of Aljazeera.

Aljazeera
By Scott Taylor

You can find this article at:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/43D3E523-32DE-4B84-A6BA-D8C4A90D6DBE.htm
 

no1important

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RE: Iraq-Vietnam comparis

For a super power or the so called self proclaimed most powerful country in the world they sure are having a hell of a time and doing a very piss poor job in trying to "take" Iraq..... and "W" yaps about cleaning up Iran and NK? wtf? If they can not handle an army less country like Iraq they will be slaughtered if they try to bring their so called brand of fredom anywhere else. Hell they could not win vietnam or Korea. Iraq will be worse than Vietnam, mark my words.
 

moghrabi

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I totally agree with you no1important. We were discussing the American superpower arrogance in a different thread. They think they can fight any war at any time.

Their superiority is in the air and sea power. Once face to face, they can't handle the street fight. There is no Rambo here who can take a whole city with one machine gun and never have t refill.
 

GL Schmitt

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Mar 12, 2005
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I am not certain it is truly necessary that the leaders of an Administration ever actually served in a fighting unit of the military, but when sending your country’s youth to war in defiance of the best military advice from the Pentagon, one would think that any aggregation with such limited experience would have paid SOME attention to their general’s concerns.

Here is where the greatest amount of what appears to be American Arrogance stems:


Colin Powell - served in Viet Nam, and had a long career as a military manager. Was probably the most dovelike of the Bush Administration during their first four years.

Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor.

Dick Cheney - several deferments, the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service")

Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve

GW Bush - decided that a six-year National Guard commitment really meant four years. Still says that he's "been to war." Against Mexico? Duh!
 

johnnybgoodaaaaa

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Jun 11, 2005
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RE: Iraq-Vietnam comparis

HI, new here, and I'm an American. I can agree that the Iraq war seems to be going nowhere and was a mistake, but I tend to disagree about Americans not being able to handle the fight. A roadside bomb is not a fight, but someone hiding away from a distance blowing up a bomb, which could get any military. Also, I myself am not in the position to generate opinions based on thier fighting according to the battle in Fulluja, when I was not there and finding footage on the battle is hard. On one side you have the Americans saying they won in Fulluja and that the mission was success(mind the puns towards Bush's ridiculous PR stunt on the aircraft carrier)and then you have people for Al Jazeera and maybe other outlets saying different. Who you want to believe is up to you. I wouldn't say the US military is lacking in strength and training in this war, it's just the hearts and minds aspect which they seem to be losing. I mean, to say that they don't match up face to face with someone who blows up bombs on the side of the street from a safe distance seems rather ridiculous, no offense.

Today I was watching some of the "hearts and minds" documentary, and while Iraq could be looked at as somewhat the same, there are still differences. Vietnam just seemed to be a country who had people that were fighting for a cause -- to unite thier country under one government(north and south)and have independence. In Iraq, there doesn't seem to be to many major figures that are a part of the resistance who seem to plan for anything in Iraq, whether coming to power or whatever. If the US leaves, who knows what will happen. Some insurgents, as reported by some, aren't even Iraqi. You have religious differences, and overall a whole screwed up picture. Oh, don't take this as me trying to defend the administration either, just because I'm an American. I didn't agree with this war, and really don't have a bright outlook for the future, but I do think it's different than Vietnam. You won't see an army of insurgents marching into baghdad like you saw in Saigon(I think that was the place). This is mainly because there are different insurgent groups(according to the news)who are of different religions that fight each other and don't seem to have a unified cause other than getting rid of the Americans, but within that cause they also kill people of other religions and Iraqis, while in Vietnam the Americans bombed civilians, burned villages, and the Vietnamese, although there was a north and south, I think had more of a common bond together than the Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds. Just my opinion though.
 

Canucklehead

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Apr 6, 2005
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Before I start rambling in response to johnny's post I'll just say that 99.9% of the time I oppose interference in another country's affairs, regardless of the rationale put forth to do so (including legitimacy of said rationale).

A roadside bomb is as much of a fight as is a cruise missile or a smart bomb. Period. Both sides use the means available to them.
Matching up face to face with the enemy is ideally how a war should be waged, unfortunately that's not how it works these days. But before slamming the Iraqis we should really look at the 'shock and awe' facet of this war. Bombing them into last week from thousands of kilometres away is hardly face to face. Just because the weaponry used is high tech and modern does not make it any different than a remote controlled roadside bomb.

What happens when the U.S. leaves is anybody's guess at this point but civil war is looking likely. I am no Saddam apologist nor do I believe he was squeaky clean in his rule of the country. Conversely, I do not believe some of the things attributed to him either since there is conflicting information. (ie. the gas sold to him was not the stuff used, but ?Iran? did have that particular gas)

Regardless of how he treated his people overall, he managed something the U.S. hasnt got a prayer at accomplishing. He kept three very conflicted groups from each other's throats for many many years. He managed the most educated, liberal Arab nation in the middle east.

There was plenty wrong with Iraq by Western standards but who are we to tell another culture how to keep the peace, manage their country, manage their resources? We had no right.
 

johnnybgoodaaaaa

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RE: Iraq-Vietnam comparis

Hmm, you do have a good point. The US does the same when they drop cruise missles. I should have thought of that considering it has been mentioned before. I think I said the one thing because someone was talking about us soldiers not being able to match up face to face: "Once face to face, they can't handle the street fight." Basically I was trying to point out in some ways that the other side can't handle a street fight with the US and resorts to car bombings or any other little thing. In some ways it is the same as Vietnam though: Basically, the US going into certain parts to take a city or "hill" as it was in Vietnam, and then leaving after winning the battle, but attacks happen elsewhere. I mean, the US probably could have taken out all of Fulluja, but if I remember right I think there was talks between sides on getting the US out.

Also, as I noted, I did not agree with the war and I don't think we should go around telling other countries how to manage thier affairs.
 

moghrabi

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May 25, 2004
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Canucklehead said:
Before I start rambling in response to johnny's post I'll just say that 99.9% of the time I oppose interference in another country's affairs, regardless of the rationale put forth to do so (including legitimacy of said rationale).

A roadside bomb is as much of a fight as is a cruise missile or a smart bomb. Period. Both sides use the means available to them.
Matching up face to face with the enemy is ideally how a war should be waged, unfortunately that's not how it works these days. But before slamming the Iraqis we should really look at the 'shock and awe' facet of this war. Bombing them into last week from thousands of kilometres away is hardly face to face. Just because the weaponry used is high tech and modern does not make it any different than a remote controlled roadside bomb.

What happens when the U.S. leaves is anybody's guess at this point but civil war is looking likely. I am no Saddam apologist nor do I believe he was squeaky clean in his rule of the country. Conversely, I do not believe some of the things attributed to him either since there is conflicting information. (ie. the gas sold to him was not the stuff used, but ?Iran? did have that particular gas)

Regardless of how he treated his people overall, he managed something the U.S. hasnt got a prayer at accomplishing. He kept three very conflicted groups from each other's throats for many many years. He managed the most educated, liberal Arab nation in the middle east.

There was plenty wrong with Iraq by Western standards but who are we to tell another culture how to keep the peace, manage their country, manage their resources? We had no right.


That is great. I have to say that I am not a Saddam apologist either but I agree with all of your points above. He was able to keep the country under tight control. Yes, he did not gas the Kurds and the US knows it. He did not have WMD before the war. He was given the green light to attack Kuwait and restore Iraq's 19th province, he was supported with the war with Iran.

As for the new member talking about a road side bomb as not a fair way of fighting, where is the fairness when you drop hundreds of bombs that do not distinguish between the guilty and the innocent.

You said you are an American. Then I welcome you here, but lets be fair when it comes to your illegal war in Iraq, your interference with nations business, turning the tables around when it is only to your advantage.
 

Canucklehead

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Apr 6, 2005
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The thing with street fighting is that invading forces are always always at a disadvantage. Pt. Smith wouldn't know which street corner to keep a watch on but the rebel fighter knows precisely which building and window to sit at to snipe away from.

I do understand what you're saying but the Iraqi rebels realise they are completely outgunned. Their tactics may be different if they had half the body armour of the U.S. soldier though.

Also, as I noted, I did not agree with the war and I don't think we should go around telling other countries how to manage thier affairs.

You are one brave Texan to say that out loud ;) :p
 

johnnybgoodaaaaa

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RE: Iraq-Vietnam comparis

PLease tell me where I said it wasn't fair? I said, and I quote " I can agree that the Iraq war seems to be going nowhere and was a mistake, but I tend to disagree about Americans not being able to handle the fight. A roadside bomb is not a fight, but someone hiding away from a distance blowing up a bomb, which could get any military."

I was merely pointing out something to a previous poster in which he said Americans can't handle face to face street fights, to paraphrase him. Often times the insurgents turn to blowing themselves up or using cars/roadside bombs against the US forces, which is hardly "face to face." I'm not saying things are or are not fair, but why point out that the US soldiers can't handle Iraqi insurgents in face to face battles, when the Iraqi insurgents, just like the US soldiers, are often using more than just guns? Both sides obviously use what is available to them, and I have yet to really see where the US has "lost" in the street face to face battles. Yet again let me make it known that I am not defending the war, but correcting statements which I found untrue. It's not like the US soldiers are going in there dropping bombs everywhere everytime while there's these defenseless insurgents running around with pistols or AKs. I've seen videos on www.ogrish.com or whatever the address is which shows them often times using car bombs, rockets, booby traps, roadside bombs, etc.

What does interference with nation's business, the war in Iraq being illegal, and turing tables to my advantage have to do with what I said? Sounds to me like you are turning things on me because I'm an American. What I mainly posted about where the comparisons of Iraq to Vietnam(as the thread seemed to ask about)and my view on the US fighting face to face in Iraq, which someone had commented on them sucking at. I myself think the US army is very dangerous and best suited defending the US inside the US, not in Iraq. Twist it around and make me look like an American jingoist as you may, but I think I know what I meant in my post, and it wasn't a "I love the Iraq war" rant or "the US soldiers are the best ever," it was merely my point of view on them fighting face to face in Iraq, and the Iraq/Vietnam comparisons.
 

johnnybgoodaaaaa

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RE: Iraq-Vietnam comparis

Yeah, Austin Texas is far more "liberal" than the rest of Texas. Living in Austin I have nothing to worry about really. Living in Dallas, as I did for a while, is another story. I can't tell you how many times I heard "he's our president, we should follow him no matter what".....but you know once there's a democrat in office(really no difference between democrats and republicans, but still)they will scream about anything they do and be completely critical. One thing I can't stand are the party-loving freaks, and I certainly can't stand the republican ones. In Dallas I saw so many "Bush/Cheney" stickers it was ridiculous, and if you argue with the people, you are suddenly not a true American and a terrorist supporter.
 

johnnybgoodaaaaa

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Jun 11, 2005
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Re: RE: Iraq-Vietnam comparis

Reverend Blair said:
Hey Johnny is here....Hi Johnny. :)

Yep, decided to check out this site. Seems pretty decent, haven't run into the "Godz" people yet, or the opposite side super-Canadian patriots(no offense to nice decent Canadians)who tear you apart for just being American.

Of course, it's early :lol:
 

Reverend Blair

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Apr 3, 2004
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RE: Iraq-Vietnam comparis

Did you make any of the South by Southwest shows, Johnny?

Nevermind, that's completely off topic. I'll start a thread for it.

I don't think you can compare the face to face fighting of the Iraqis vs. the Americans. Look at Falluja. That was about as close to face to face as this war has been. The Iraqis had AK47s and rocket launchers. The US bombed them massively, then moved in with armour and air cover.
 

moghrabi

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May 25, 2004
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Here i am again. I am not trying to turn the tables around on you because you are American. You have to see what is going on on the ground to make sense of this war. Americans are losing big time to the insurgents. Sorry to say that but they are from my stand point. I have access to websites right in iraq written in Arabic and you can see the carnage. It is sad but this what your president wants: Democracy by force. It will never happen.

Last but not least, welcome to our little board. please enjoy your stay. If you are a friend of the Rev, you must be special.
 

johnnybgoodaaaaa

New Member
Jun 11, 2005
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RE: Iraq-Vietnam comparis

I actually missed it, but it was all over Tv. I'm new to Austin, so I don't know if it's an annual thing, but if it is then I think I will hit it next year.

About what you said for the face to face fighting: that's pretty much how it goes with the US. The US uses all the stuff they have, meaning they basically bomb, soften the place up, then send in tanks, helicopters, soldiers and take out whatever. Main probably with Iraq is that once you destroy one place, you realize that it's only one place out of many, and once you move on to the other places, the place you got done destroying starts to go back to it's ways. The US doesn't fight fair, although I still wouldn't say that they would suck in a face to face battle with insurgents, because most insurgents probably lack the training the normal US soldier has, and the insurgents usually don't get massive kills, and when they do kill nowadays it seems it's from a roadside bomb, or some other sneak attack. I'm not saying they aren't being fair, just that's how they seem to fight. On www.ogrish.com they have videos of some of the ways the insurgents fight, in which they just drive a car up and blow it up. I wouldn't say that is face to face fighting anymore than a cruise missle, as the one poster pointed out.
 

johnnybgoodaaaaa

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Jun 11, 2005
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Re: RE: Iraq-Vietnam comparison inevitable

moghrabi said:
Here i am again. I am not trying to turn the tables around on you because you are American. You have to see what is going on on the ground to make sense of this war. Americans are losing big time to the insurgents. Sorry to say that but they are from my stand point. I have access to websites right in iraq written in Arabic and you can see the carnage. It is sad but this what your president wants: Democracy by force. It will never happen.

Last but not least, welcome to our little board. please enjoy your stay. If you are a friend of the Rev, you must be special.

I know Rev from another board. I myself first came to that board being the typical American, but I dunno, after looking up info he and others would supply, you start to change your point of view.

About those arabic websites you talk of: are not arabic people capable of propaganda just like the US? I myself can't pick sides as far as who is winning, just because of what you stated: I'm not on the ground. I'm not a soldier, a commander, or anything, so for me to make a completely informed opinion, I would have to be in the "know" which I'm not. I can piece some things together from arabic news or american news, but my outlook is to not fully believe either. The terrorist aren't stupid, and they are capable of creating propaganda themselves, just as the Americans create propaganda. Maybe the Iraqi people, and not the insurgents or the Americans will win in the long run, which would be nice. I don't agree with democracy by force, although to me it's just a complex situation. What will happen to Iraq if the US leaves? That is something that I wonder. I mean, do the Iraqis want to be ruled by the insurgents? Do they want a civil war because of different insurgent groups? There has to be reasonable Iraqis that just want to get on with things and don't want to be ruled by either.
 

Vanni Fucci

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Dec 26, 2004
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Re: RE: Iraq-Vietnam comparis

johnnybgoodaaaaa said:
Reverend Blair said:
Hey Johnny is here....Hi Johnny. :)

Yep, decided to check out this site. Seems pretty decent, haven't run into the "Godz" people yet, or the opposite side super-Canadian patriots(no offense to nice decent Canadians)who tear you apart for just being American.

Of course, it's early :lol:

Hey Johnny...

Yes, we try to keep the Godz folk at bay here...

We are critical of governments from many countries, but contrary to the beliefs of some here, there are no real anti-Americans on this board...

right ITN... :p