Iraq-Vietnam comparison inevitable

[Ocean Breeze]

If that is the case it certainly isnt it's own citizens getting shot. And I actually saw video footage of several of these routine executions.

anyone with a teevee and a decent program channel has seen some documentaries that indicate this. No one is condoning this conduct. But lowering yourself to the level you have done.....you are not much better than they are . you just use different tactics and call it different euphamistic names.

But isolating one aspect of this , as a defense does not hold ground.

Heck Americans shoot women in the head , back or whereever........just look at the murder /crime rate in the US. Just because the US G does not do it ........(that is to our knowledge ) does not mean that this kind of conduct does not exist in the US.

Have heard valid reports from friends in the US where neighbors have been arrested in the middle of the night for some obscure reason, thrown in jail......and had their lives ruined . Held without legal council on some new terrorist law. ....and abused while their homes were ramsacked. This is not what one hears about via the media.......but talk to a few friends who KNOW people this has happened to.....and one gets a disturbing picture of things. This is NOT the America it used to be......thanks to bush......The fact he operates with the degree of secrecy (under the excuse of security reasons)......is a red alert to anyone that is still THINKING. One is quite justified to be a tad paranoid in the US now.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

3. SO what if Saddam was propped up by the US. Iran was the issue back then. We were on the same side as Russia until hitler fell.

so what??? that makes you a turn coat. a hypocrit and someone that cannot be trusted. Today's ally is tomorrows enemy and must be invaded. And all this causes is more anger......and tension as one does not know when the US will turn on someone.

IF those reasons for invading Iraq are so clear,(of course most of us know them.....and have all along - as most of us are not brain dead) why doesn't bush say so??? WHY LIE about his agenda and intentions. ???

 

[mattyaloo]

If that is the case it certainly isnt it's own citizens getting shot. And I actually saw video footage of several of these routine executions.

anyone with a teevee and a decent program channel has seen some documentaries that indicate this. No one is condoning this conduct. But lowering yourself to the level you have done.....you are not much better than they are . you just use different tactics and call it different euphamistic names.

But isolating one aspect of this , as a defense does not hold ground.

Heck Americans shoot women in the head , back or whereever........just look at the murder /crime rate in the US. Just because the US G does not do it ........(that is to our knowledge ) does not mean that this kind of conduct does not exist in the US.

Have heard valid reports from friends in the US where neighbors have been arrested in the middle of the night for some obscure reason, thrown in jail......and had their lives ruined . Held without legal council on some new terrorist law. ....and abused while their homes were ramsacked. This is not what one hears about via the media.......but talk to a few friends who KNOW people this has happened to.....and one gets a disturbing picture of things. This is NOT the America it used to be......thanks to bush......The fact he operates with the degree of secrecy (under the excuse of security reasons)......is a red alert to anyone that is still THINKING. One is quite justified to be a tad paranoid in the US now.

You're referring to the patriot act. First of all, you don't know what those "naighbors" were up to. But I will grant that I don't agree with SOME of what I have heard about the Patriot act. But you can't blame bush for that, John Kerry (a Dem Senator) voted for the patriot act too, as did many many other left leaning dems.

And you can't compare crimes against women by CRIMINALS in the US to the autocratic rule-by-terror in the middle east. That was a weak point and you're smart enough to know it.

My main point is that you really can't know whether or not the US activity in the middle eeast will end up with longer term benefit or not. You really can't know. Nobody can. Right now it's simply opinion. Bush might end up being looked upon in 30 yeaqrs by historians as the man who created an oasis of democracy in a region of terror. You have to admit he might be right -- that pacifism isn't ALWAYS the answer.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Dubya has less than half the domestic power that our own PM does so who is the dictator?

wait a second........are you Canadian or British??? I would have sworn you were American and part of the bush brigade. (from the theme and tone of your post.....you "sound" just like a right wing rebubofascist bush supporter...... the same one that lies and dismisses/denies reports of abuse by American troops.


(yes, a lot of us are trying to come up with an appropriate term for the bush gov't........as it ain't a true republican, ;-)

 

[mattyaloo]

3. SO what if Saddam was propped up by the US. Iran was the issue back then. We were on the same side as Russia until hitler fell.

so what??? that makes you a turn coat. a hypocrit and someone that cannot be trusted. Today's ally is tomorrows enemy and must be invaded. And all this causes is more anger......and tension as one does not know when the US will turn on someone.

IF those reasons for invading Iraq are so clear,(of course most of us know them.....and have all along - as most of us are not brain dead) why doesn't bush say so??? WHY LIE about his agenda and intentions. ???

It's a good question. I can't give him too much respect there. I think we can both agree that they are getting to be more clear about their long term intentions in the middle east, but it was always inferred. See the link above. Kind of like how the Libs in Canada kept saying they were the champions of health care but cut federal health transfers by 50% in the nineties. Yes, politicians lie and we all know they're lying, but we all want to believe them.

Turn coat? umm, geopolitical landscapes change. I know you'd like it to be kind of like the lone ranger, with the white hat and the black hat and all but it's actually more complex than that. DO I really have to explain the whole Iran thing and the concept of "spheres of influence" to you?

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Bush might end up being looked upon in 30 yeaqrs by historians as the man who created an oasis of democracy in a region of terror.

cough , cough.

Would never even begin to think what bush might look like in 30 years......but don't think that history will ignore HOW he went about it. Historians will sort through all this .....and that book is yet to be written.

all we can do is try to assess every action, decision and consequence as it is played out NOW.....and anticipate the fallout as best as possible.

It would be better and rightly so.....that the ME would evolve at its own rate. Sooner or later the people will see that what is there now is not working anymore....and will demand change, revolte or whatever.......but it would then be THEIR doing , not some arrogant asshole coming in with guns blazing telling them what is good for them.

( and yes, I do know the circumstances of that arrest ....and it is not pleasant) .......otherwise I would not have brought it up.

 

[mattyaloo]

Dubya has less than half the domestic power that our own PM does so who is the dictator?

wait a second........are you Canadian or British??? I would have sworn you were American and part of the bush brigade. (from the theme and tone of your post.....you "sound" just like a right wing rebubofascist bush supporter...... the same one that lies and dismisses/denies reports of abuse by American troops.


(yes, a lot of us are trying to come up with an appropriate term for the bush gov't........as it ain't a true republican, ;-)

gee I thought lefties didn't like placing generic labels on large groups of people. I guess when it suits you its ok :wink: it's funny, people who say the most awful things about the american people would gasp and cry racism if someone substituted the word "japanese" or "mexican" for "american"

 

[mattyaloo]

Bush might end up being looked upon in 30 yeaqrs by historians as the man who created an oasis of democracy in a region of terror.

cough , cough.

Would never even begin to think what bush might look like in 30 years......but don't think that history will ignore HOW he went about it. Historians will sort through all this .....and that book is yet to be written.

all we can do is try to assess every action, decision and consequence as it is played out NOW.....and anticipate the fallout as best as possible.

It would be better and rightly so.....that the ME would evolve at its own rate. Sooner or later the people will see that what is there now is not working anymore....and will demand change, revolte or whatever.......but it would then be THEIR doing , not some arrogant asshole coming in with guns blazing telling them what is good for them.

( and yes, I do know the circumstances of that arrest ....and it is not pleasant) .......otherwise I would not have brought it up.

But Canada did it in Afghanistan right? so is Paul Martin an asshole too?

 

[Ocean Breeze]

geopolitical landscapes change

of course they do........that is not the issue.-- that is a given. for instance........IF the Iraqis had managed somehow to get rid of SH by themselves (providing they really wanted to).....the whole situation would have changed overnight.

Look what happened when Arafat "died"??? The change was dramatic.


( and please save your condescending attitude......it is so unbecoming. :wink:


Of course all politicians lie.......or use euphamistic spin. That is a no brainer. But how many lie about some wmd in order to invade a distant nation, that posed no threat to it??? We are talking lies to kill ,maim and destroy.

an off topic question, but this is something I don't know off hand. Did Hitler LIE to invade??? Or was his agenda more open.?? Can't recall now. thanks. Mind you , the Germans did not have any say either did they??

 

[Ocean Breeze]

But Canada did it in Afghanistan right? so is Paul Martin an asshole too?

that is really being silly. Afganistan was a different scenario. Even the world in general supported the invasion in Afganistan ..on the basis of the terrorist camps there. Pakistan is still arresting terrorists that are located near the border.


We (collectively) must assess each situation on an individual basis.

Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism.

(P.Martin can be an asshole like the best of them.....but he is not insane )

can you imagine the outrage in Canada if Martin tried something like bush has??? Why does lynching come to mind?? (kidding ) :wink:

 

[Vanni Fucci]

1. Please let me know which of Saddam's human rights has been violated?

BBC News{/url]

2. It was about Oil, Terrorism and a much more important long term goal of gaining a strong presence in the middle east to help them civilize, get real court systems and democratic institutions. Sure, darlin' it was about all of the above. You lefties think you've uncovered some big secret. Everyone knows the US has longterm geopoliticl goals in the middle east. Check out this site and read the mission statement. This was written and signed by Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush, Dan Quayle, DIck CHeney etc. in 1997,long before 9-11. It's no big secret.

[url]http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

Yes, I'm a frequent visitor to the PNAC site...I know of their dirty little plans for world conquest...

3. SO what if Saddam was propped up by the US. Iran was the issue back then. We were on the same side as Russia until hitler fell.

The US was kissing Saddam in the ear while he was gassing Kurds...and then blamed the whole thing on Iran...

4. Dubya has less than half the domestic power that our own PM does so who is the dictator? But yes, the USpresident does carry alot of international power....and yes, dubya is a global threat to dictators and terrorists. that bastard!

It's not his domestic power that is at issue here, although he has taken several liberties since 2000, it's the fact that he called the world to join him in avenging 9/11 and ridding the world of terrorism, and then when the world agreed, he puts a long conceived plan to attack Iraq into motion, and acts all pouty because the world decided to sit that one out...it's been mentioned several times by Conservative pundits on this board that that is the reason that softwood lumber and BSE have not yet been resolved...it seems he has more clout in our country than he has in his own...

His foreign policy (read imperialistic crusade), is causing untold damage in the ME, with his greedy oil grabbing exploits...and his continued support of Israel and their systematic extermination of the Palestinian people begs the question...is a tyrant any less tyrranical for being democratically elected?

 

[mattyaloo]

geopolitical landscapes change

of course they do........that is not the issue.-- that is a given. for instance........IF the Iraqis had managed somehow to get rid of SH by themselves (providing they really wanted to).....the whole situation would have changed overnight.

Look what happened when Arafat "died"??? The change was dramatic.


( and please save your condescending attitude......it is so unbecoming. :wink:


Of course all politicians lie.......or use euphamistic spin. That is a no brainer. But how many lie about some wmd in order to invade a distant nation, that posed no threat to it??? We are talking lies to kill ,maim and destroy.

an off topic question, but this is something I don't know off hand. Did Hitler LIE to invade??? Or was his agenda more open.?? Can't recall now. thanks. Mind you , the Germans did not have any say either did they??

re: hitler. last time I checked 1940's france wasn't ruled by a ruthless dictator who blatantly flouted international law and ignored UN sanctions. These attempts at comparing Bush to Hitler are weak. Saddam invaded Kuwait, the US moved in. One UN condition of ceasfire: submit to weapons inspections. Saddam blatantly flouted this sanction for over ten years with no consequence rendering the UN toothless. The US took matters into their own hands ten years later and removed him from power.

Did you agree with Canada's decision to remove the Taliban? If so, why or why not?

 

[Ocean Breeze]

It's a good question. I can't give him too much respect there.

quite frankly , not sure what urks me more.......his lies or his actions. ;-)


I can't respect him at all...... ( hey, we found common ground :wink:

what makes me so sad is that this is the first time I ever felt this way about the USG. I can't even stand to watch him-bush on tv now)..........whereas I used to look forward to the State of the Union addresses. (something bush seems to have dropped ).....as it kind of gave one a summary of things south of the border and created a sense of unity too.

 

[mattyaloo]

1. Please let me know which of Saddam's human rights has been violated?

BBC News{/url]

2. It was about Oil, Terrorism and a much more important long term goal of gaining a strong presence in the middle east to help them civilize, get real court systems and democratic institutions. Sure, darlin' it was about all of the above. You lefties think you've uncovered some big secret. Everyone knows the US has longterm geopoliticl goals in the middle east. Check out this site and read the mission statement. This was written and signed by Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush, Dan Quayle, DIck CHeney etc. in 1997,long before 9-11. It's no big secret.

[url]http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

Yes, I'm a frequent visitor to the PNAC site...I know of their dirty little plans for world conquest...

3. SO what if Saddam was propped up by the US. Iran was the issue back then. We were on the same side as Russia until hitler fell.

The US was kissing Saddam in the ear while he was gassing Kurds...and then blamed the whole thing on Iran...

4. Dubya has less than half the domestic power that our own PM does so who is the dictator? But yes, the USpresident does carry alot of international power....and yes, dubya is a global threat to dictators and terrorists. that bastard!

It's not his domestic power that is at issue here, although he has taken several liberties since 2000, it's the fact that he called the world to join him in avenging 9/11 and ridding the world of terrorism, and then when the world agreed, he puts a long conceived plan to attack Iraq into motion, and acts all pouty because the world decided to sit that one out...it's been mentioned several times by Conservative pundits on this board that that is the reason that softwood lumber and BSE have not yet been resolved...it seems he has more clout in our country than he has in his own...

His foreign policy (read imperialistic crusade), is causing untold damage in the ME, with his greedy oil grabbing exploits...and his continued support of Israel and their systematic extermination of the Palestinian people begs the question...is a tyrant any less tyrranical for being democratically elected?

You haven't cited evidence of anything. Your "responses" are certainly not answers, they are leftist ramblings. Let's see even on kernel of evidence for your myriad accusations.

 

[mattyaloo]

1. Please let me know which of Saddam's human rights has been violated?

BBC News{/url]

2. It was about Oil, Terrorism and a much more important long term goal of gaining a strong presence in the middle east to help them civilize, get real court systems and democratic institutions. Sure, darlin' it was about all of the above. You lefties think you've uncovered some big secret. Everyone knows the US has longterm geopoliticl goals in the middle east. Check out this site and read the mission statement. This was written and signed by Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush, Dan Quayle, DIck CHeney etc. in 1997,long before 9-11. It's no big secret.

[url]http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

Yes, I'm a frequent visitor to the PNAC site...I know of their dirty little plans for world conquest...

3. SO what if Saddam was propped up by the US. Iran was the issue back then. We were on the same side as Russia until hitler fell.

The US was kissing Saddam in the ear while he was gassing Kurds...and then blamed the whole thing on Iran...

4. Dubya has less than half the domestic power that our own PM does so who is the dictator? But yes, the USpresident does carry alot of international power....and yes, dubya is a global threat to dictators and terrorists. that bastard!

It's not his domestic power that is at issue here, although he has taken several liberties since 2000, it's the fact that he called the world to join him in avenging 9/11 and ridding the world of terrorism, and then when the world agreed, he puts a long conceived plan to attack Iraq into motion, and acts all pouty because the world decided to sit that one out...it's been mentioned several times by Conservative pundits on this board that that is the reason that softwood lumber and BSE have not yet been resolved...it seems he has more clout in our country than he has in his own...

His foreign policy (read imperialistic crusade), is causing untold damage in the ME, with his greedy oil grabbing exploits...and his continued support of Israel and their systematic extermination of the Palestinian people begs the question...is a tyrant any less tyrranical for being democratically elected?

You haven't cited evidence of anything. Your "responses" are certainly not answers, they are leftist ramblings. Let's see even on kernel of evidence for your myriad accusations.

oh---and those "dirty little plans" for world democracy. what a horrible thought.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Did you agree with Canada's decision to remove the Taliban? If so, why or why not?

It was not really Canadas decision....Canada role in Afganistan has been to assist , be an ally in dealing with the gov't that actively provided safe haven /support terrorist groups like OBL.

totally different scenario.

OK.......IF bush had been able to provide a clear and definate link to terrorist groups in Iraq......as he did in Afganistan. (which most of the world knew about ) and said that this was a continuation of the "war on terrorism ".......so that some logic would follow....It might have been a different situation. He could have been more patient.......and even avoided the disgrace of using WMD as an "excuse. Providing of course there was clear evidence of such activity.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

oh---and those "dirty little plans" for world democracy. what a horrible thought.

In what friggin' world would it be acceptable to force, by strength of arms, any system of government on a people? Certainly not this one, as Bush is finding more and more every day...

 

[mattyaloo]

But Canada did it in Afghanistan right? so is Paul Martin an asshole too?

that is really being silly. Afganistan was a different scenario. Even the world in general supported the invasion in Afganistan ..on the basis of the terrorist camps there. Pakistan is still arresting terrorists that are located near the border.


We (collectively) must assess each situation on an individual basis.

Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism.

(P.Martin can be an asshole like the best of them.....but he is not insane )

can you imagine the outrage in Canada if Martin tried something like bush has??? Why does lynching come to mind?? (kidding ) :wink:

You're all over the map. I baited you and you bit hard.

In a previous post you (or someone else) brought up the idea that change should come about through internal means no matter how ruthless the dictator. ie. the Iraqi people should have removed saddam, not some asshole like Bush.

Using that logic, you would have to be consistent and agree that the same should not have been done in Afghanistan.

If you choose not to be consistent in that belief, fine, but you'll then have to admit that the only difference between Afgh. and Iraq is the criteria for "removal".

 

[Vanni Fucci]

1. Please let me know which of Saddam's human rights has been violated?

BBC News{/url]

2. It was about Oil, Terrorism and a much more important long term goal of gaining a strong presence in the middle east to help them civilize, get real court systems and democratic institutions. Sure, darlin' it was about all of the above. You lefties think you've uncovered some big secret. Everyone knows the US has longterm geopoliticl goals in the middle east. Check out this site and read the mission statement. This was written and signed by Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush, Dan Quayle, DIck CHeney etc. in 1997,long before 9-11. It's no big secret.

[url]http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

Yes, I'm a frequent visitor to the PNAC site...I know of their dirty little plans for world conquest...

3. SO what if Saddam was propped up by the US. Iran was the issue back then. We were on the same side as Russia until hitler fell.

The US was kissing Saddam in the ear while he was gassing Kurds...and then blamed the whole thing on Iran...

4. Dubya has less than half the domestic power that our own PM does so who is the dictator? But yes, the USpresident does carry alot of international power....and yes, dubya is a global threat to dictators and terrorists. that bastard!

It's not his domestic power that is at issue here, although he has taken several liberties since 2000, it's the fact that he called the world to join him in avenging 9/11 and ridding the world of terrorism, and then when the world agreed, he puts a long conceived plan to attack Iraq into motion, and acts all pouty because the world decided to sit that one out...it's been mentioned several times by Conservative pundits on this board that that is the reason that softwood lumber and BSE have not yet been resolved...it seems he has more clout in our country than he has in his own...

His foreign policy (read imperialistic crusade), is causing untold damage in the ME, with his greedy oil grabbing exploits...and his continued support of Israel and their systematic extermination of the Palestinian people begs the question...is a tyrant any less tyrranical for being democratically elected?

You haven't cited evidence of anything. Your "responses" are certainly not answers, they are leftist ramblings. Let's see even on kernel of evidence for your myriad accusations.

Where should we start?

 

[Ocean Breeze]

gee I thought lefties didn't like placing generic labels on large groups of people. I guess when it suits you its ok

not really...... just that sometimes one has to resort to a language the right wing fanatics understand. They don't seem to do very well in conceptual /abstract thought. :wink: