"Eye for an eye" attitude has nothing to do with punishment. It's all about revenge and revenge is wrong.
Iran's 'eye for an eye' justice
- Thread starter CUBert
- Start date
"Eye for an eye" attitude has nothing to do with punishment. It's all about revenge and revenge is wrong.
Really? Perhaps you can show us the criticism, since cubby can't. It's more likely, you and cubby need to stop reading between the lines and making stuff up.
Any chance of getting the name of that country any time soon?
No, because the preferred outcome would have been to take Osama alive and serve justice by deciding his punishment with due course. Once Osama resisted the orders were to kill him. Were not going to leave him there, and we're not going to wait for the Pakistani army to attack. Therefore killing Osama right then and there became the closest means of justice we could get for the 3000 people he cremated. Justice, not revenge.
Question: Do you consider Osama Bin Laden a hero?
I don't believe he resisted at all, they already said he was unarmed... This was a kill operation, they had no intention of catching him alive.
He's not a hero to me, I'm not living in a Muslim country with American tanks rolling through my backyard... but I could see how some Muslims could consider him a hero.
Why?
Sometimes it has to be. But what do you think is the purpose of justice?
So you really believe there are no officially Christian nations that use their police to beat and kill people of other sects or beliefs, treat their women like absolute **** and ignore International Human Rights?
To ensure equity, fairness and protect individual rights. Is the clinical answer, but I also somewhat believe in the fact that 'there's justice, and there's just us'.
Is this directed at me petros?
They could not have a living Osama, he would have been on televisions all over the
world. His trial would be a media sensation and it would have stirred up all kinds of
violence. His death would do the same.
There was no other way to settle this unfortunately. The world has watched as our
weak kneed governments talk about eventual peace and they all claim we are not at
war with Islam only extremists. If you believe that you will believe anything.
We are at war, with Islam and our incompetent government leaders have chose to
allow some of the most serious enemy to come and live among us.
How do we spot one of those who would be against us? How do we monitor those
who are suspects? After all if we should try to spy on them, then we run the risk of
profiling, heaven forbid.
When we consider the rights and privileges of others coming to this country what
about protecting the rights and privileges of those who live here and are already the
citizens of the country? What has this got to do with eye for an eye justice?
A lot, a few times already these people using religion as a guise, has asked that they
be allowed to practice Sharia Law in this country.
The time has come to screen all those coming to Canada, and those who live in such
countries that condone eye for an eye or other violent practices should be automatically
denied entry into Canada.
world. His trial would be a media sensation and it would have stirred up all kinds of
violence. His death would do the same.
There was no other way to settle this unfortunately. The world has watched as our
weak kneed governments talk about eventual peace and they all claim we are not at
war with Islam only extremists. If you believe that you will believe anything.
We are at war, with Islam and our incompetent government leaders have chose to
allow some of the most serious enemy to come and live among us.
How do we spot one of those who would be against us? How do we monitor those
who are suspects? After all if we should try to spy on them, then we run the risk of
profiling, heaven forbid.
When we consider the rights and privileges of others coming to this country what
about protecting the rights and privileges of those who live here and are already the
citizens of the country? What has this got to do with eye for an eye justice?
A lot, a few times already these people using religion as a guise, has asked that they
be allowed to practice Sharia Law in this country.
The time has come to screen all those coming to Canada, and those who live in such
countries that condone eye for an eye or other violent practices should be automatically
denied entry into Canada.
Awesome, another one that refuses to answer questions, but asks them.
As soon as you answer the two questions I posted to you, I'll get right on to answering yours.
Sure. I'll answer it with more questions. What is the social stigma for a rape victim in the officially Christian Republic of Georgia? Do the police there beat and kill people for practising non-official religions? Do they bother to give women any rights. If they do are they enforced?
I'll start you off here: http://stopvaw.org/sites/3f6d15f4-c...5a41e/uploads/initial_shadow_report_cedaw.pdf
What challenge? That Offical Christian govts with state religions are perfect and Muzzies aren't? Georgia is one very ****ed up place for women with bizarre violence by the police and it's Christian.
No challenge there at all.
Too bad they lack a boogey man on TV to make their ****hole Christian nation a legitimate ****hole Christian nation?
No challenge there at all.
Too bad they lack a boogey man on TV to make their ****hole Christian nation a legitimate ****hole Christian nation?
Yup!
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]1999-MAY: Guram Sharadze filed a lawsuit in Tbilisi's Isani-Samgori district court. Tbilisi is the capital of the Republic of Georgia. He sought to annul the 1998 registration of the Jehovah's Witnesses' registration as a civil association. He argued that the Watch Tower Society (WTS) threatened the Georgian state and identity. He lost the case. He then argued that deregistration was required because Georgia lacked a law on religion. The Georgian Supreme Court agreed. However the highest court stated that the Witnesses organization was not banned. Members were still free "to change their belief, either alone or jointly with others, either publicly or in private" and retained the "freedom to manifest their religion or beliefs, from the viewpoint of religious teachings and having rituals."[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]1999-MAY-29: The police in Tbilisi "violently broke up a prayer meeting of the Assembly of God, threatening and beating several participants." 2[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]1999-JUL-7: According to Human Rights without Frontiers, "The patriarchate of Georgia officially demanded the prohibition of the activity of the sect of 'Jehovah's Witnesses.' A representative of the patriarchate, Georgy Andriadae, declared that the activity of the Jehovists, who are 'representatives of totalitarian religious forces,' is dangerous for society. The Georgian Orthodox Church has charged that the activity of 'Jehovah's Witnesses' drives members of the sect to psychological illnesses and alienates a person from public life." 11[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]1999-OCT-17: Also in Tbilisi, Vasili Mkalavishvili allegedly led a mob which attacked a group of Protestants. Sixteen people were injured, several seriously. Perpetrators were charged. One admitted in court that she had burned Witness' literature and would do so again. They were acquitted. The court found that two of the victims were guilty of "hooliganism." They were sentenced to probation. According to the WTS, "During a recess of the trial on August 16, 2000, a mob of about 80 Orthodox extremists stormed the courtroom. Security guards watched but did not interfere. On August 17 outside the courthouse, the same mob attacked and threw rocks at a journalist and a human rights advocate who were present to observe the trial." 7[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2000-SEP: Ursula Schleicher, a member of the European Parliament and chairperson of the delegation to the EU-Georgia Parliamentary Cooperation Committee, issued a statement on SEP-5, condemning an AUG-16 attack. It said, in part, "I regard this kind of attack as an outrageous attack against the fundamental human rights to which Georgia is committed as a signatory of the European Convention for Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms." 8[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2000 - Year end: The Jehovah's Witnesses group in Georgia reported that there were 38 violent attacks of their members during the year 2000. These included looting of a WTS convention site by a mob, allegedly with the support of the local police.[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2001-FEB: A group of 300 Jehovah's Witnesses were attacked by a group of fifteen to twenty people, using clubs, large crosses, and Bibles. They were assisted by police. 2[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2001-MAR: The Keston News Service, reported that Mkalavishvili stated: "We won't allow sectarians to build their Satanic churches. They are against Orthodoxy and insult Jesus Christ. They are selling out Orthodoxy and the Georgian soul." 2
About 150 people, including four Orthodox priests attacked a prayer meeting in the town of Sachkhere.
Eduard Shevardnadze, president of Georgia, issued a decree which ordered the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the General Procuracy and the Ministry of State Security to stop religious hate-crimes and "to take extraordinary measures to identify and punish those guilty." It seems to have had little effect.
The Georgian Supreme Court condemned the "acts of vandalism" perpetrated by Mkalavishvili, "and other expressions of religious extremism and intolerance..." The Court called on "all law enforcement structures to take appropriate measures against those persons who place themselves above the law and because of religious motives take it upon themselves [to] execute 'justice.' Such acts are not only illegal, but they also create a serious danger for the public and the State." Again, this had little effect. Many local police forces continue to interpret the Supreme Court decision of 1999 as if it banned gatherings of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Georgia Customs seized twenty tons of WTS literature.[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2001-APR: "...a group wielding sticks spiked with nails broke up a prayer meeting in the Svanetisubani district of Tbilisi. The attackers broke windows, furniture and electrical equipment, beat worshippers with...spiked sticks, and burned religious literature in a large bonfire on the street." 2 The police arrived during the attack, then left. After waiting for the assailants to finish their job, the police returned. Vasili Mkalavishvili allegedly said: "I am very satisfied, for today we have saved 5,000 Orthodox souls, and did not allow these apostles of the Antichrist, these representatives of the sect of the Jehovists, to spiritually poison the Georgian people."
A mob of about 60 attacked "three U.S. Assemblies of God resident personnel and seven visiting U.S. Assemblies of God pastors...as they surveyed, prayed over and took pictures of the future site of a Bible school in Tbilisi." 9
A group of about twenty people broke up a prayer meeting in the town of Rustavi, beating those attending the meeting and some neighbors who had come to their defense. There are allegations that the mob was led by Paata Bluashvili, a member of "Cross." This is an ultra-Orthodox organization dedicated to prevent the spread of non-traditional groups in Georgia.
United States Congressman Christopher Smith, Co-Chairman of the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe, commented: "A person, whether he or she be a Jehovah's Witness, or any other minority faith, should never, ever be singled out and subjected to harassment, beatings, and abuse because of that...We've been following the worsening developments in Georgia against minority faiths, and Jehovah's Witnesses in particular...The glide path here is a negative one. That mobs are being incited to not only burn literature, which is totally contrary to the Helsinki accords—it reminds some of us of the book burnings that happened during the Nazi years...These mob attacks where police looking askance as people are attacked, beaten, even in courtrooms. And I've seen video evidence of that. It's very, very troubling...Jehovah's Witnesses are being targeted in a very, very cruel way." 6[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2001-MAY: About thirty people, believed by eyewitnesses to be followers of Mkalavishvili, attacked about sixty non-traditional worshipers in an apartment in Tbilisi.[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2001-JUN: Fifty or sixty men and women attacked a prayer meeting of eighty-six people in Tbilisi. The police arrived, but did not detain the perpetrators.
Jehovah’s Witnesses filed an application with the European Court of Human Rights. They asked the Court to rule that the government of Georgia must prosecute perpetrators of the brutal...attack on the Gldani Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses on 1999-OCT-17. Eyewitnesses allege that the attack was carried out by Orthodox priest Vasili Mkalavishvili and his followers.[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2001-AUG: The Jehovah's Witnesses in Georgia reported that their members were attacked forty times during the first seven months of 2001. This was more than had occurred during the entire twelve months of 2000. Whereas most of the attacks in 1999 and 2000 had been located in Tbilisi, violence during 2001 had been more widespread throughout the country. Also additional groups were involved: other nationalistic organizations, church clergy, and neighbors of non-traditional congregants.
During an interview on a BBC religious program Mkalavishvili allegedly said: "It is terrible, terrible that today Georgia is being invaded by dark satanic forces of the outside. Many do not understand that Georgia's salvation is in Orthodoxy, and that those sects, and especially Jehovah's Witnesses, are trying to destroy our centuries'-long tradition. This is why I and my followers have declared a battle against those sects and we are determined to carry on fighting them." He was also reported as saying: "Thank God that among our security services and policemen there are people who are willing to help me: they realize how dangerous it is to have these sects in Georgia." 3 Nobody has been found guilty of religious violence in this case.[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2002-FEB: A mob looted the offices of the Baptist church. They hundreds of Bibles and other books. 12[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2002-JUL: A dozen young men beat six staff members of the Liberty Institute in Tbilisi, the capital city of Georgia. The group advocates religious freedom, and has been complaining of the mob attacks. 12[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]2002-AUG: A mob interrupted a planned revival meeting by Jehovah's Witnesses in Kaspi, Georgia. Two dozen men, identified as Greek Orthodox members by their jewelry, ransacked the home of the host, Ushangi Bunturi. They burned Bibles, religious pamphlets and Bunturi's possession. They poured diesel fuel into the baptismal pool. Police were present during the violence, but it is not clear whether they took part in the destruction or simply observed it. Bunturi commented: "You can see what freedom of faith, what freedom of assembly we have. They say we have these [religious] rights, but they do not act on them." Gennadi Gudadze, the director of the Union of Jehovah's Witnesses, said that this is the latest in at least a dozen attacks on Witnesses in the year 2002. 1[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]1999-MAY: Guram Sharadze filed a lawsuit in Tbilisi's Isani-Samgori district court. Tbilisi is the capital of the Republic of Georgia. He sought to annul the 1998 registration of the Jehovah's Witnesses' registration as a civil association. He argued that the Watch Tower Society (WTS) threatened the Georgian state and identity. He lost the case. He then argued that deregistration was required because Georgia lacked a law on religion. The Georgian Supreme Court agreed. However the highest court stated that the Witnesses organization was not banned. Members were still free "to change their belief, either alone or jointly with others, either publicly or in private" and retained the "freedom to manifest their religion or beliefs, from the viewpoint of religious teachings and having rituals."[/FONT]
About 150 people, including four Orthodox priests attacked a prayer meeting in the town of Sachkhere.
Eduard Shevardnadze, president of Georgia, issued a decree which ordered the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the General Procuracy and the Ministry of State Security to stop religious hate-crimes and "to take extraordinary measures to identify and punish those guilty." It seems to have had little effect.
The Georgian Supreme Court condemned the "acts of vandalism" perpetrated by Mkalavishvili, "and other expressions of religious extremism and intolerance..." The Court called on "all law enforcement structures to take appropriate measures against those persons who place themselves above the law and because of religious motives take it upon themselves [to] execute 'justice.' Such acts are not only illegal, but they also create a serious danger for the public and the State." Again, this had little effect. Many local police forces continue to interpret the Supreme Court decision of 1999 as if it banned gatherings of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Georgia Customs seized twenty tons of WTS literature.[/FONT]
A mob of about 60 attacked "three U.S. Assemblies of God resident personnel and seven visiting U.S. Assemblies of God pastors...as they surveyed, prayed over and took pictures of the future site of a Bible school in Tbilisi." 9
A group of about twenty people broke up a prayer meeting in the town of Rustavi, beating those attending the meeting and some neighbors who had come to their defense. There are allegations that the mob was led by Paata Bluashvili, a member of "Cross." This is an ultra-Orthodox organization dedicated to prevent the spread of non-traditional groups in Georgia.
United States Congressman Christopher Smith, Co-Chairman of the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe, commented: "A person, whether he or she be a Jehovah's Witness, or any other minority faith, should never, ever be singled out and subjected to harassment, beatings, and abuse because of that...We've been following the worsening developments in Georgia against minority faiths, and Jehovah's Witnesses in particular...The glide path here is a negative one. That mobs are being incited to not only burn literature, which is totally contrary to the Helsinki accords—it reminds some of us of the book burnings that happened during the Nazi years...These mob attacks where police looking askance as people are attacked, beaten, even in courtrooms. And I've seen video evidence of that. It's very, very troubling...Jehovah's Witnesses are being targeted in a very, very cruel way." 6[/FONT]
Jehovah’s Witnesses filed an application with the European Court of Human Rights. They asked the Court to rule that the government of Georgia must prosecute perpetrators of the brutal...attack on the Gldani Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses on 1999-OCT-17. Eyewitnesses allege that the attack was carried out by Orthodox priest Vasili Mkalavishvili and his followers.[/FONT]
During an interview on a BBC religious program Mkalavishvili allegedly said: "It is terrible, terrible that today Georgia is being invaded by dark satanic forces of the outside. Many do not understand that Georgia's salvation is in Orthodoxy, and that those sects, and especially Jehovah's Witnesses, are trying to destroy our centuries'-long tradition. This is why I and my followers have declared a battle against those sects and we are determined to carry on fighting them." He was also reported as saying: "Thank God that among our security services and policemen there are people who are willing to help me: they realize how dangerous it is to have these sects in Georgia." 3 Nobody has been found guilty of religious violence in this case.[/FONT]
- Time Almanac 2001, Page 774.
- "Memorandum to the U.S. Government on Religious Violence in the Republic of Georgia," 2001-AUG-29, at: http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/eca/
- Keston News Service, news release of 2001-MAR-28.
- "Focus on Faith," report on the Jehovah's Witnesses in Georgia; BBC World Service, 2001-AUG-7.
- "News Releases: Republic of Georgia," WTS, at: http://www.jw-media.org/
- "Will Georgia protect religious freedom?" WTS, at: http://www.jw-media.org/
- "Court in Republic of Georgia convicts victims of mob attack on Jehovah's Witnesses," WTS, at: http://www.jw-media.org/
- "European Parliament delegation condemns violence against Jehovah's Witnesses in Republic of Georgia," WTS, at: http://www.jw-media.org/
- "Mob Attacks Assembly of God Group in Republic of Georgia," Religion Today. Online at: http://www.angelfire.com/co/
- "Audiatur et alia pars: Comments on the Keston Institute's Recent Criticism of the Patristic Resistance Movement in the Georgian Orthodox Church," Orthodox Christian Information Center, at: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/resistance/
- Mikhail Vignansky, "Georgian Patriarchate Declares War on Sectarians," Human Rights Without Frontiers, at: http://www.hrwf.net/English/georgia99e.html
- Steven Lee Myers, "Attacks on Minority Faiths Rise in Post-Soviet Georgia," New York Times, 2002-AUG-17, at: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/17/
- Douglas Birch, "Keeping the faith, forcefully: Doctrine: Georgian Orthodox worshippers are accused of violent attacks on members of other religious groups that have emerged since the collapse of the Soviet system," 2002-SEP-4, SunSpot.net, at: http://www.sunspot.net/news/nationworld/