If they hate us so much, why don't they leave?

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
1,254
1
38
Edmonton
Re: RE: If they hate us so much, why don't they leave?

Caleb-Dain Matton said:
JonB2004 said:
If the immigrants don't respect our country and its people, they can get the hell out. Plain and simple.

Don't really want to be the one who breaks the news to you Jon, but we're all immigrants in North America.

How untrue. Anyone that can trace their heritage back to either the French or British colonists (like I can) is most certainly NOT an immigrant. There is a huge difference between a colonist and an immigrant. Chiefly an immigrant requires a Country to be immigrating to. There was no Nation of Canada centuries ago, there was simply a loose collection of Native Tribes scattered throughout the continent. They layed claim to small portions of land, not the entire landmass. Granted yes, the Europeans did what they did best, oppress anything that wasn't white and pompous, but that's beside the point. The point is that the crutch of "we're all immigrants" that people lean on is both tired and inaccurate. Yes there are a lot of immigrants in Canada, but there are also a lot of colonial decendents.
 

Caleb-Dain Matton

Electoral Member
Jun 14, 2006
197
0
16
Sarnia, Ontario
www.commondreams.org
Re: RE: If they hate us so much, why don't they leave?

Mogz said:
Caleb-Dain Matton said:
JonB2004 said:
If the immigrants don't respect our country and its people, they can get the hell out. Plain and simple.

Don't really want to be the one who breaks the news to you Jon, but we're all immigrants in North America.

How untrue. Anyone that can trace their heritage back to either the French or British colonists (like I can) is most certainly NOT an immigrant. There is a huge difference between a colonist and an immigrant. Chiefly an immigrant requires a Country to be immigrating to. There was no Nation of Canada centuries ago, there was simply a loose collection of Native Tribes scattered throughout the continent. They layed claim to small portions of land, not the entire landmass. Granted yes, the Europeans did what they did best, oppress anything that wasn't white and pompous, but that's beside the point. The point is that the crutch of "we're all immigrants" that people lean on is both tired and inaccurate. Yes there are a lot of immigrants in Canada, but there are also a lot of colonial decendents.

Playing with Semetics.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Even the first nations peoples are immigrants to the new world if you go back far enough. First waves of immigrants were simply followed by subsequent waves.

When Europeans showed up they found people who identified themselves by clan, tribe and nation.

Just because some first nations weren't recognized by European colonial powers doesn't mean they didn't exist.

European colonial powers recognized many first nations in treaties, pacts and other agreements.

Many first nations also had tresties/agreements between themselves recognizing borders access to resources....

Arabs and Muslims are simply the most recent wave of immigrants to the new world and Europe.

It should not be a big surprise that many Arabs and Muslims countries would be upset with what our governments and Israel do to Arabs and Muslims in the middle east.

I disagree that being a citizen in a western nation means requires approving and supporting government policies which support war against Arabs and Muslims. It does mean respecting the law and working within the system to effect change.

I disagree that targeting innocent people is an effective way to effect change. It hasn't helped Israel pacify Palestinians and get them accept the inevitable annexation and racial/ethnic/religious cleansing of Palestine.

Obviously the current fighting is designed to draw Syria into the fighting and effect regime change in Syria. I doubt Syria or Iran will go along with that American/Israel plan without a fight.
 

tamarin

House Member
Jun 12, 2006
3,197
22
38
Oshawa ON
Increasingly, the fight's becoming one around the sacred moo-moo, multiculturalism. Is it still producing milk?
This week Brits have yet again faced the unconscionable- home grown terrorists who, despite the liberties and protections of a western society, choose to support extremist elements from their ethnic past.
We must be able to count on fellow citizens. If we can't, then policy adjustments will have to be made.
 

Hank C

Electoral Member
Jan 4, 2006
953
0
16
Calgary, AB
Re: RE: If they hate us so mu

Daz_Hockey said:
good read that one blackleaf, I particularly liked the line:
"For a peaceful religion, they're very big on death"

if they don't like living in britain, they should get out, why should britain change to a set of laws we as europeans forced out of europe hundreds of years ago?.

sore losers if you ask me.

yup, free education, free health care, freedom to worship, freedom of speech and they want to pay us back by bitching and terrorizing us....deport or detain (according to the citizenship situation) any muslim found preaching hatred towards fellow citizens. If you ask me its time we cut muslim immigration before Canada and the US ends up with the mess they have over in Europe.
 

tamarin

House Member
Jun 12, 2006
3,197
22
38
Oshawa ON
All we need first is accountability from those who supported such shifts in immigration policy initially. It's important that people realize in a free society that decisions and actions have consequences.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
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Even though I do not support these people. I understand their rage.

These people aren't paying us back for our social welfare programs. They are pissed off with us because most of us either support Israel's rolling annexation and ethnic cleansing of Palestine and American hegemony in the middle east regarding oil... or we are ignorant of these things. Either way, we are responsible for these things because most of us do little to nothing about these root causes of the current conflicts and re-elect governments which support US and Israeli policies.

If our governments support violence and injustice against Muslims and Arabs, then we should expect that at least a few Muslims and Arabs will be angry enough with us to resort to terrorism as a result.

Maybe its time we elect leaders which support peaceful, fair and just solutions to these problems rather than leaders who unconditionally support Israel's and America's right to kill innocent civilians to further their agendas.

Think of this as "What goes around, comes around..."

If you don't understand these words, then take a look at the pictures:

WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGES of Destruction and Civilian Victims of the Anglo-American Aggression in Iraq

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm

What Israel does in Palestine and Lebanon is about the same as what the US does is Iraq, only its being going on there for nearly 60 years.

If these things happened here in Canada to Canadians by foreign powers, would any of us be willing to resort to terrorism if that was the only way we could resist?
 

Daz_Hockey

Council Member
Nov 21, 2005
1,927
7
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RE: If they hate us so mu

Ah yes, but we can get into this arguement forever, come on, most of the arab league were pro-nazi (The grand Mufti etc), WHY SHOULDNT EUROPE and the US stick up for israel?...Arabs havent generally spent thousands of years being shifted from here to there, after the evil and barbaric acts of said Nazi's, didn't they deserve their own homelands? in the place they were driven out of to begin with?

I think this Arab view of evil europe supporting evil Jewish states is disgusting....IT'S THEIR LAND People, wake up, Herod's castle is still there, all their buildings (apart from a garish mosque on the main site) are still there...the only ones who are squaters there are the palistines.
 

Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
5,338
70
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52
Das Kapital
RE: If they hate us so mu

I disagree with that view, Daz. Lots of countires, kindoms etc, etc lost their territory/s and have accepted defeat.
 

Daz_Hockey

Council Member
Nov 21, 2005
1,927
7
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RE: If they hate us so mu

Yep, personally, I'd make Jerusalem an international city governed by a world council...It's too important for a majority of the world's religions to be governed by one state alone.
 

Logic 7

Council Member
Jul 17, 2006
1,382
9
38
Re: RE: If they hate us so mu

Daz_Hockey said:
Ah yes, but we can get into this arguement forever, come on, most of the arab league were pro-nazi (The grand Mufti etc), WHY SHOULDNT EUROPE and the US stick up for israel?...Arabs havent generally spent thousands of years being shifted from here to there, after the evil and barbaric acts of said Nazi's, didn't they deserve their own homelands? in the place they were driven out of to begin with?

I think this Arab view of evil europe supporting evil Jewish states is disgusting....IT'S THEIR LAND People, wake up, Herod's castle is still there, all their buildings (apart from a garish mosque on the main site) are still there...the only ones who are squaters there are the palistines.


This is very wrong,the majority of jews immigrated from europe in the begining of 1900, yes native jew were there, but they were even less than 40 000 in 1900.

I'd like also to point out that italy supported hitler, same with japan, the same who supports Us "coalition of the willing" today.
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
4,162
43
48
SW Ontario
Re: RE: If they hate us so mu

Logic 7 said:
Daz_Hockey said:
Ah yes, but we can get into this arguement forever, come on, most of the arab league were pro-nazi (The grand Mufti etc), WHY SHOULDNT EUROPE and the US stick up for israel?...Arabs havent generally spent thousands of years being shifted from here to there, after the evil and barbaric acts of said Nazi's, didn't they deserve their own homelands? in the place they were driven out of to begin with?

I think this Arab view of evil europe supporting evil Jewish states is disgusting....IT'S THEIR LAND People, wake up, Herod's castle is still there, all their buildings (apart from a garish mosque on the main site) are still there...the only ones who are squaters there are the palistines.


This is very wrong,the majority of jews immigrated from europe in the begining of 1900, yes native jew were there, but they were even less than 40 000 in 1900.

I'd like also to point out that italy supported hitler, same with japan, the same who supports Us "coalition of the willing" today.

The same is true of the majority of Arabs. The Jews at least have a history there. Besides, the Arabs got something like 86% of Palestine, is that not enough?
 

Daz_Hockey

Council Member
Nov 21, 2005
1,927
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RE: If they hate us so mu

see, I said this could go one...BUT logic, Italy and Japan didnt go into the war with 2 aims...1 to kick the jews out of palistine and 2 to kick the europeans out.

Nope, the others were about many reasons, where as the Arabs were basically just about their hatred of jews.

I am aware of the number of jews that immigrated and when, I also know the immigration started in 1900, it takes a long time, but in the end, IT IS Their land, most of the arab tribes were bedoins for a long time and didnt have a particular settlement, where as the jews did, Israel.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
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Re: RE: If they hate us so mu

Just the Facts said:
The same is true of the majority of Arabs. The Jews at least have a history there. Besides, the Arabs got something like 86% of Palestine, is that not enough?

I doubt Palestine was ever purely Jewish. Arabs, Muslims, Christians and their ancestors have been in Palestine as long as the Jews... maybe even longer.

Palestine was a relatively peaceful part of the world during the 400 year period it was administered by the Ottomans. Muslim, Jewish and Christian Palestinians lived together in relative harmony until Zionism turned a region known for its hospitality into a war zone.

Before the recent Zionist movement, Palestine was no more Jewish than New York State or Argentina. When Palestine was divided, Jews made up about 40% of the population (most of whom were recent immigrants) got about 60% of Palestine. Not only that, they got most of the arable land and water. Today about 4 million Palestinians live in refugee camps. The ones unfortunate enough to live in areas controlled by Israel have restricted access to water and land, have endured 60 years of rolling annexations, Jewish colonization, expropriate of property and Israeli control of their movement and economy. The Palestinians who live in the occupied territories faces constant bombings, assasssinations and property destruction.

These are the changes Europeans and the UN impoised on the peaceful Palestinians. Arabs and Muslims who use terrorist tactics to harm us do so because our governments created Israel, arm it, and turn a blind eye to Israel's ethnic cleansing, America's and israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity.

It should be obvious to even the most misinformed that not finding any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq meant the leaders behind that war were either lying to us or incompetent. What most of us know about Israel's history is just as manipulated.

Even when Israel slaughters innocent Canadians, our government still refuses to criticize Israel and instead makes statements supporting Israel's right to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity even against Canadian citizens.
 

Daz_Hockey

Council Member
Nov 21, 2005
1,927
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RE: If they hate us so mu

to be honest with you earth as one, while I do believe Israel does belong to the jewish nation, I agree, i think it should recogniesed that certain towns and cities should be administered and populated by a truely international popultion, including jews, christians and muslims.

I just feel a lot of israel is too precious to be occupied by one nation.
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
4,162
43
48
SW Ontario
Re: RE: If they hate us so mu

earth_as_one said:
Just the Facts said:
The same is true of the majority of Arabs. The Jews at least have a history there. Besides, the Arabs got something like 86% of Palestine, is that not enough?

I doubt Palestine was ever purely Jewish. Arabs, Muslims, Christians and their ancestors have been in Palestine as long as the Jews... maybe even longer.

So I ask again, is 14% so much to ask? The problem is not Jewish colonization and rolling annexation, the problem is that the Arabs want it ALL.

Before the recent Zionist movement, Palestine was no more Jewish than New York State or Argentina.

How long before the Zionist movement? You can't ignore the pogroms that forced Jews out of Israel and then say there were few Jews there to begin with. Of course there were few Jews, they were being killed off and chased away for almost two millennia.

When Palestine was divided, Jews made up about 40% of the population (most of whom were recent immigrants) got about 60% of Palestine.

How much? We're ignoring Jordan again, aren't we? Did we just pull Jordan out of a hat? Also, it's disingenuous to keep pointing out that most of the Jews were recent immigrants, while ignoring that most Arabs were recent immigrants as well.

Not only that, they got most of the arable land and water.

They are responsible for most of the arable land and water. The Zionists drained swamps and irrigated desert to create productive land. The Arabs used to laugh at the Jews for the price they paid for wasteland. Within a generation, Arabs were immigrating to the region to fill jobs created by the Jews in the former wasteland.

Today about 4 million Palestinians live in refugee camps.

Why is that? There were millions of refugees created by the second world war (my family among them), why do only the Palestinians still assign themselves refugee status generations later?

The ones unfortunate enough to live in areas controlled by Israel have restricted access to water and land,

This is news to me, but if it is true, I can imagine it would be because the Palestinians would barbeque any unfortunate Jew who wandered out of a protected area. Remember that Arabs in Israel hold full rights of citizenship and hold seats in the Keneset. Jews in the territories tend to be ground up into hamburger.
 

Hotshot

Electoral Member
May 31, 2006
330
0
16
Re: RE: If they hate us so much, why don't they leave?

JonB2004 said:
If the immigrants don't respect our country and its people, they can get the hell out. Plain and simple.

Yea, but they get welfare money and free health care handed to them here. Why leave?

Pretty disgusting isn't it?
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
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48
Re: RE: If they hate us so mu

Just the Facts said:
earth_as_one said:
Just the Facts said:
The same is true of the majority of Arabs. The Jews at least have a history there. Besides, the Arabs got something like 86% of Palestine, is that not enough?

I doubt Palestine was ever purely Jewish. Arabs, Muslims, Christians and their ancestors have been in Palestine as long as the Jews... maybe even longer.

So I ask again, is 14% so much to ask? The problem is not Jewish colonization and rolling annexation, the problem is that the Arabs want it ALL.

eao response:

I have an idea. Since Israel has created almost 5 million Palestinians refugees, lets invit them to Canada? First they could mix in with the rest of us and then when they are strong enough and well supported by foreigners, we could let them have 14% of Canada, that's not so much to ask is it? The Problem would be the selfish Canadians would want it all.


Before the recent Zionist movement, Palestine was no more Jewish than New York State or Argentina.

How long before the Zionist movement? You can't ignore the pogroms that forced Jews out of Israel and then say there were few Jews there to begin with. Of course there were few Jews, they were being killed off and chased away for almost two millennia.

eao:
If you read the first post in this thread you would know that many people have been forced out of Palestine over the centuries. Palestinians are just the latest group to suffer eviction, death and destruction by foreign invasion.

In this latest invasion, European Jews are the new Romans. What has happened and continues to happen in Palestine to Palestinians by the immigrants which make up most of modern Israel is about as fair as the ancient Roman eviction of Jews, as medieval Crusades and as barbaric the worst crimes by Milosovic.


When Palestine was divided, Jews made up about 40% of the population (most of whom were recent immigrants) got about 60% of Palestine.

How much? We're ignoring Jordan again, aren't we? Did we just pull Jordan out of a hat? Also, it's disingenuous to keep pointing out that most of the Jews were recent immigrants, while ignoring that most Arabs were recent immigrants as well.

eao:
Is it fair to divide a home and give 14% to a stranger?

It doesn't matter how you play the math, 14% of Transjordan or 60% of Palestine... its still a crime to drive people from their homes by violent acts and threats of violent acts. Its a crime to take people's homes and property without compensation.

How many Qana's can Israel commit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_shelling_of_Qana

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Qana_airstrike

http://www.alnakba.org/

What's been going on in Palestine is a crime that has continued for far too too long. This is a global problem. It requires an honest appraisal, not propaganda to solve.


Not only that, they got most of the arable land and water.

They are responsible for most of the arable land and water. The Zionists drained swamps and irrigated desert to create productive land. The Arabs used to laugh at the Jews for the price they paid for wasteland. Within a generation, Arabs were immigrating to the region to fill jobs created by the Jews in the former wasteland.

The people who owned this land had legal rights to their property, before and after the UN graciously awarded European Jews dominion over Palestinians. Taking away basic human rights, their property and forcing them by violent means or threats of violence to relocate is a criminal activity.

Today about 4 million Palestinians live in refugee camps.

Why is that? There were millions of refugees created by the second world war (my family among them), why do only the Palestinians still assign themselves refugee status generations later?

eao:
Because no country will accept them. Their situation is a disgrace to the civilized world just like South Africa's apartheid...

http://psc.za.org/pscsaourdeclaration.htm

I am ashamed of the role my country has played in creating this problem.

Europeans persecuted and tried to exterminate Jews, not Palestinians. If Jews needed a homeland, they should have ben granted 14% of Germany, not Palestine. Getting all of Bavaria would seem just considering the Nazi holocaust.

Instead, Europe deflected its responsibility for the massive Jewish refugee problem by dumping it on a convenient colony. How nice for the inhabitants who were then chased off their land...


The ones unfortunate enough to live in areas controlled by Israel have restricted access to water and land,

This is news to me, but if it is true, I can imagine it would be because the Palestinians would barbeque any unfortunate Jew who wandered out of a protected area. Remember that Arabs in Israel hold full rights of citizenship and hold seats in the Keneset. Jews in the territories tend to be ground up into hamburger.



Also

...Thousands like 'Abbas Khaled 'Ali Yusef and Mufida Ahmad have lost their family property with no compensation or recourse. 'Ali Yusef's town of Nazlat Isa-once a thriving market on the Green Line that catered primarily to Palestinian citizens of Israel-saw over 200 shops and five homes demolished by the Wall's construction in the past year and a half. In addition, over 100,000 trees have been uprooted in 47 communities and approximately 3,700 acres of cropland destroyed for the footprint of the Wall. And these direct losses of assets are just one type of economic destruction wrought by the construction of the first phase of the Wall and its buffer zone.
In addition, the Wall makes large tracts of land inaccessible to their owners. Its first phase isolated 51 communities from their lands, which total 25,000 acres. While this land has not been officially confiscated, many fear that it soon will be-according to Israeli law, land that goes uncultivated for three years becomes government property. While Israel has built 20 gates in the Tulkarem and Qalqiliya districts, ostensibly to help farmers reach their fields, most are permanently closed, and at the few that open sporadically there have been reports of Palestinians shot, beaten, humiliated, and prevented from crossing. Even farmers who still have access to their land face serious questions about whether and how much to plant, since impeded access to markets means they may see little or no return on their investments.
Likewise, the Wall blocks access to water. The first phase of construction has trapped 50 wells in the buffer zone and west of the Wall. These wells supply 8,770,000 cubic yards of water annually and are essential to the irrigation of cropland in the area. In Qalqiliya, 34 of the district's 75 wells are now inaccessible to residents, and over 200 cisterns and tens of reservoirs are isolated behind the Wall. Certain areas west of the Wall, like Baqa ash Sharqiya, have long served as sources of water for surrounding villages. Tankers would drive well water to neighboring communities that have no water source. Now that the Wall separates Baqa ash Sharqiya from these villages, it is virtually impossible for the tankers to get through. Not only does the loss of water assets result in reduced water access for households and a decline in agriculture, but since these wells are privately owned, it also means lost income for the well owners.
Finally, the Wall hinders mobility, and therefore, economic activity. Because some communities are trapped between the Wall and the Green Line, while others are almost completely sealed off by the Wall, residents simply have limited access to the employment opportunities, markets, and resources that they once enjoyed. In many communities the Wall makes it impossible to travel for work....

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Israel/Backs_To_Wall.html


...Israel has not sought to assimilate or integrate its Palestinian citizens. Rather, it has tended to exclude them from Israeli public life, and to leave them marginalised and neglected. Moreover, the Palestinian minority has not been permitted any significant degree of control over its own affairs while the government has maintained a system of tight control. At the same time, it has obstructed the development of separate Palestinian institutions...

http://www.arabhra.org/factsheets/factsheet0.htm


SECOND CLASS
Discrimination Against Palestinian
Arab Children in Israel's Schools


http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/israel2/index.htm#TopOfPage

Israelis have always been horrified at the idea of parallels between their country, a democracy risen from the ashes of genocide, and the racist system that ruled the old South Africa. Yet even within Israel itself, accusations persist that the web of controls affecting every aspect of Palestinian life bears a disturbing resemblance to apartheid.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1703245,00.html

Compare that to Iran's treatment of Jews:

Jews in Iran Describe a Life of Freedom Despite Anti-Israel Actions by Tehran
Michael Theodoulou, Special to The Christian Science Monitor

http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1998/02/03/intl/intl.3.html
 

Hotshot

Electoral Member
May 31, 2006
330
0
16
Re: RE: If they hate us so much, why don't they leave?

Caleb-Dain Matton said:
JonB2004 said:
If the immigrants don't respect our country and its people, they can get the hell out. Plain and simple.

Don't really want to be the one who breaks the news to you Jon, but we're all immigrants in North America.

Not necessarily. Haven't you heard of native indians???