IDF forces are terrorists and murderers and nothing more

#juan

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You just have to read something other than the Tel Aviv Times.

Don't be silly.

The difference is this.....The Palestinians can not claim self-defense because if they stooped fighting they would be left in peace.

If Israel stopped fighting, the Arabs and Persians would kill them all........down to the last newborn.

Nobody is suggesting that Israel give up their military. It would just be nice if they stopped treating Palestine as if it was all Israel. The current Palestinian leaders have agreed to Israel's right to exist. The best thing that could happen is if Israel took their tanks and guns back to the borders they were given, and stayed the hell out of the Palestinian's lives.
 

thomaska

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Caleb-Dain Matton said:
thomaska said:
And heres Hezbollah's squeaky clean record, please feel free to justify each one...I'm sure someone will..


1982: Israel invades Lebanon to drive out the PLO’s terrorist army, which had frequently attacked Israel from its informal "state-within-a-state" in southern Lebanon. Hezbollah, a Shiite group inspired by the teachings and revolution of Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini, is created with the assistance of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps. The group is called Hezbollah–or "party of God"– after initially taking responsibility for attacks under the name "Islamic Jihad." (Not to be confused with the Palestinian terror organization Islamic Jihad.)

July 19, 1982: The president of the American University in Beirut, Davis S. Dodge, is kidnapped. Hezbollah is believed to be behind this and most of the other 30 Westerners kidnapped over the next ten years.

April 18, 1983: Hezbollah attacks the U.S. embassy in Beirut with a car bomb, killing 63 people, 17 of whom were American citizens.

Oct. 23, 1983: The group attacks U.S. Marine barracks with a truck bomb, killing 241 American military personnel stationed in Beirut as part of a peace-keeping force. A separate attack against the French military compound in Beirut kills 58.

Sept. 20, 1984: The group attacks the U.S. embassy annex in Beirut with a car bomb, killing 2 Americans and 22 others.

March 16, 1984: William F. Buckley, a CIA operative working at the U.S. embassy in Beirut, is kidnapped and later murdered.

April 12, 1984: Hezbollah attacks a restaurant near the U.S. Air Force Base in Torrejon, Spain. The bombing kills eighteen U.S. servicemen and injures 83 people.

Dec. 4, 1984: Hezbollah terrorists hijack a Kuwait Airlines plane. Four passengers are murdered, including two Americans.

Feb. 16, 1985: Hezbollah publicizes its manifesto. It notes that the group's struggle will continue until Israel is destroyed and rejects any cease-fire or peace treaty with Israel. The document also attacks the U.S. and France.

June 14, 1985: Hezbollah terrorists hijack TWA flight 847. The hijackers severely beat Passenger Robert Stethem, a U.S. Navy diver, before killing him and dumping his body onto the tarmac at the Beirut airport. Other passengers are held as hostages before being released on June 30.

Dec. 31, 1986: Under the alias Organization of the Oppressed on Earth, Hezbollah announces it had kidnapped and murdered three Lebanese Jews. The organization previously had taken responsibility for killing four other Jews since 1984.

Feb. 17, 1988: The group kidnaps Col. William Higgins, a U.S. Marine serving with a United Nations truce monitoring group in Lebanon, and later murders him.

Oct. 22, 1989: Members of the dissolved Lebanese parliament ratify the Taif Agreement. Although the agreement calls for the "disbanding of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias," Hezbollah remains active.

Feb. 16, 1992: Sayyad Hassan Nasrallah takes over Hezbollah after Israel kills the group’s leader, Abbas Musawi.

March 17, 1992: With the help of Iranian intelligence, Hezbollah bombs the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires, killing 29 and injuring over 200.

July 18, 1994: Hezbollah bombs the Jewish community center in Buenos Aires–again with Iranian help–killing 86 and injuring over 200.


Nov. 28, 1995: Hezbollah bombards towns in northern Israel with volleys of Katyusha rockets in one of the group's numerous attacks on Israeli civilians.

March 30, 1996: Hezbollah fires 28 Katyusha rockets into northern Israeli towns. A week later, the group fires 16 rockets, injuring 36 Israelis. Israel responds with a major offensive, known as the "Grapes of Wrath" operation, to stop Hezbollah rocket fire.

Aug. 19, 1997: Hezbollah opens fire on northern Israel with dozens of rockets in one of the group's numerous attacks on Israeli civilians.

October 1997: The United States lists Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.

Dec. 28, 1998: Hezbollah opens fire on northern Israel with dozens of rockets in one of the group's numerous attacks on Israeli civilians.
May 17, 1999: Hezbollah opens fire on northern Israel with dozens of rockets in one of the group's numerous attacks on Israeli civilians.



June 24, 1999: Hezbollah opens fire on northern Israel, killing 2.

May 23, 2000: Israel withdraws all troops from Lebanon after 18 years patrolling the "security zone," a strip of land in the south of the country. The security zone was set up to prevent attacks on northern Israel.

June 2000: United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan certifies Israel’s withdrawal from Lebanon. Shortly thereafter, the U.N. Security Council endorses Annan’s report. Hezbollah nonetheless alleges Israel occupies Lebanon, claiming the small Shebba Farms area Israel captured from Syria during the 1967 war as Lebanese territory.

Oct. 7, 2000: Hezbollah attacks an Israel military post and raids Israel, kidnapping three Israeli soldiers. The soldiers are later assumed dead. In mid-October, Hezbollah leader Nasrallah announces the group has also kidnapped an Israeli businessman. In 2004, Israel frees over 400 Arab prisoners in exchange for the business man and the bodies of the three soldiers.


March 1, 2001: The British government adds Hezbollah’s "military wing" to its list of outlawed terrorist organizations.

April 9, 2002: Hezbollah launches Katyushas into northern Israeli town. This assault comes amidst almost daily Hezbollah attacks against Israeli troops in Shebba farms.

Dec. 11, 2002: Canada lists Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. Huh?

Aug. 10, 2003: Hezbollah shells kills 16-year-old Israeli boy, wound others.

June 5, 2003: Australia lists Hezbollah’s "military wing" as a terrorist organization.

Sept. 2, 2004: United Nations Security Council Resolution 1559 calls for "the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias," a reference to Hezbollah.


December 2004: Both the United States and France ban Hezbollah’s satellite television network, Al Manar. A U.S. State Department spokesman notes the channel "preaches violence and hatred."

March 10, 2005: The European Parliament overwhelmingly passes a resolution stating: "Parliament considers that clear evidence exists of terrorist activities by Hezbollah. The (EU) Council should take all necessary steps to curtail them." The European Union nonetheless refrains from placing the group on its list of terror organizations.

July 12, 2006: Hezbollah attacks Israel with Katyushas, crosses the border and kidnaps two Israeli soldiers. Three Israeli soldiers are killed in the initial attack. Five more soldiers are killed as Israel launches operation to rescue the soldiers and push Hezbollah from its border. Hezbollah launches rockets into towns across northern Israel

Don't forget to fill in between the lines of your beloved U.S. atrocities!

Do your own work.

Well wait, I'll list a few I guess..

WWI
1.8 million germans and an odd assortment of Austro - Hungarians

WWII
A good portion of 8.1 million Germans(again!) Because of appeasement crowd weenies

Most of 1.75 million fanatical Japanese samurai wanna-be's And don't give me the Atom bomb atrocity garbage, a lot more Japanese would have died in an invasion.

Those atrocities or do you only want Muslim figures?

But I suppose none of this matters anymore. We've killed civilians so our credibility is crap now. :roll: Caleb-Dain Matton, heres a newsflash, the phenomenon of civilians dying in war didnt start with the invention of Cable TV and the internet. And there has never been a war or a combatant on either side of said war, that didnt commit "atrocities". I have to ask you though, why such staunch support for a group like Hezbollah? What traits do they possess that you find admirable? I find it funny that you went off on a tangent about U.S. atrocities when I listed Hezbollah's misbehavior. Was it my little American flag that set you off? Just come out and say you hate the U.S. don't beat around the Bush.. :lol:

#Juan

I certainly hope it doesn't go on forever over there, and no I don't think the side who gets the last hit in, wins. I read an interesting article by an Egyptian blogger who posed a question to his co-workers...

http://www.sandmonkey.org/2006/08/01/some-slightly-uncomfortable-questions/

I had an interesting conversation yesterday with a co-worker, on the concept of the disporportinate Israeli attacks on Lebanon compared to Hezbollah attacks. He pointed to me his dismay at Hezbollah's rockets ineffeciency at hitting targets. He said "If you noticed, they bomb each other almost equally in amounts of missiles shot, but 90% of Hezbollah's rockets miss or hit nothing, while all of Israel's rockets hit something. If Hezbollah had better rockets, the civillian death toll on the Israeli side would be huge, and they would be really hurting by now."

Impressed by this point of view that I haven't considerd before, I asked him what he would've thought, if a Hezbollah rocket had attacked a building in Israel, killing 55 civillians, of which 30 were children. He responded immeidtely "I would've thought it was great! A7san!".

So I repeated the same question to 8 other co-workers, and the responses so far have been as follows: 7 said they would celebrate, and 2 said that such an attack would've been bad, but justified! Yeah! Not a single person said that the death of any civllian, on either side, is an equal tragedy. Civillians dead on our side is tragic, civillian deaths on their side cause for celebration. And if you think I am being unfair or demonizing arabs or whatever, do me a favor and try it at your work place and/or with members of your family. Conduct this little social experiment and see for yourself. The results are very interesting.

This begs another question: If we were the ones who had the superior military machine, would we have shown them any mercy, or any regard to their civillian casualties? Would we have hesitated to wipe them all out? Armed forces, civillians, whatever? Would any of us have felt bad about it at all? Or would we be filled with the feelings of Pride, honor and dignity that we keep talking about day and night?

I am just wondering!

What do you think?


This article gives me some hope because your average everyday Arab is thinking about these things and hopefully one day they will become fed up with all the death and destruction and police their own fanatics. I still stick to my belief though that if Islamic fanatics stopped fighting today, there would be peace in Lebanon and Israel. If Israel stopped fighting, there would be "pieces" of Israelis floting in the Mediterranean. Did you hear the Iranian President's solution for peace today? Kind of sums up radical Islams roadmap to peace.
 

elevennevele

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No side in this conflict is without a record of war crimes.

It’s ironic you should reference WW2. Israeli atrocity does not support them being on the ‘just’ side as far as a WW2 comparision. In fact WW2 should make us even more critical of what the state of Israel has done as far as it’s military actions and interrogation techniques by comparison.


"The Insane Brutality of the State of Israel"

Atrocities in the Promised Land

By KATHLEEN CHRISTISON
former CIA analyst

A government that imprisons a 15-year-old girl -- one of several hundred children in Israeli detention -- for the crime of pushing and running away from a male soldier trying to do a body search as she entered a mosque is not a government with any moral bearings. (This story, not the kind that ever appears in the U.S. media, was reported in the London Sunday Times. The girl was shot three times as she ran away and was convicted to 18 months in prison after she came out of a coma.)
 

#juan

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I've done a lot of reading on this topic ------ that doesn't make me an expert by any stretch but you know, I used to support Israel a hundred percent. I'm a fair bit older than most on these forums and that doesn't qualify me for any special badge either. It just seems sometimes like the Israelis stayed inside their original borders for about a week and a half. Israel's first prime minister, David Ben Gurion made it clear that he wanted all of Palestine and so did Golda Mier. The Jews were always better armed than the Palestinian Arabs and when Menachim Begin (sp) was leading the Irgun,(sp) it was a favourite trick to drive the Arabs out of their homes and then burn the houses to the ground so the Arabs couldn't come back. Begin did this to entire villages and that is how they filled the refugee camps. After over fifty years the struggle seems bloody pointless unless you're a Palestinian. I find it difficult to work up much sympathy for the Israelis in this new attack.
 

para-dice

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JonB2004 said:
[...]
The IDF is not a bunch of murderers, Jersay. The IDF accidentilly killed those Canadians. It wasn't their fault. It's Hezbollah's fault because Israel wouldn't be bombing Lebanon if Hezbollah wouldn't of kidnapped their soldiers. [...]

Abducting military personel is a valid military objective. In countless past cases they have simply swapped prisonrers. It's the unwritten rules of this "game". But this is all irrelevant, as Ha'aretz (Israel's major newpaper) reported the invasion was planned over a year ago, the IDF just waited for a reason.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21/MIDEAST.TMP

Hezbollah was not "hiding" around the UNIFIL outpost, besides after the artillery rounds, and the constant UN complaints - none of which mentioned any Hezbollah fighters, it was a precision IAF F16 bomb which wiped out the UN outpost. There is no doubt it was an intentional strike. The IDF has done this numerous times in the past, the last time over 100 civi's were killed.

Neither was Hezb hiding around civi's at Qana:
It now appears that the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence of Hezbollah men at the time.

The Israel Defense Forces had said after the deadly air-strike that many rockets had been launched from Qana. However, it changed its version on Monday.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html
Hezbollah is succesful because they keep their identities hidden from civi's, whom they regard rightly as a security threat:
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/28/hezbollah/index_np.html
As such the IDF doesn't know how may they are, what weapons they have etc.

I would suggest these erroneous reports of Hezb "hiding" around civi's has more to do with another Israeli PR campaign to blame others for its mis-deeds.
 

Colpy

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Abducting military personel is a valid military objective. In countless past cases they have simply swapped prisonrers. It's the unwritten rules of this "game". But this is all irrelevant, as Ha'aretz (Israel's major newpaper) reported the invasion was planned over a year ago, the IDF just waited for a reason.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21/MIDEAST.TMP

Abducting military personel may be a valid military objective, but it is also an act of war. Destroying military targets despite the civilian population is also a valid military objective.

OF COURSE the invasion was planned over a year ago..........that is what military planners do is prepare for whatever eventuality there is..........especially when your enemy is close, constantly testing you with minor attacks, and gaining in power by the day. The Israelis would have been very negligent NOT to have planned this a year ago.

Hezbollah was not "hiding" around the UNIFIL outpost, besides after the artillery rounds, and the constant UN complaints - none of which mentioned any Hezbollah fighters, it was a precision IAF F16 bomb which wiped out the UN outpost. There is no doubt it was an intentional strike. The IDF has done this numerous times in the past, the last time over 100 civi's were killed.
BALONEY! The day before the UN reported Hezbollah activity around their position. The death of UN "peacekeepers" is fully the responsibility of the UN bureaucrats in New York......arseholes that keep "peacekeepers" in place long after there is no peace to keep.

Neither was Hezb hiding around civi's at Qana:
It now appears that the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence of Hezbollah men at the time.

The Israel Defense Forces had said after the deadly air-strike that many rockets had been launched from Qana. However, it changed its version on Monday.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html
Hezbollah is succesful because they keep their identities hidden from civi's, whom they regard rightly as a security threat:
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/28/hezbollah/index_np.html
As such the IDF doesn't know how may they are, what weapons they have etc.

I would suggest these erroneous reports of Hezb "hiding" around civi's has more to do with another Israeli PR campaign to blame others for its mis-deeds.
[/quote]
Oh SPARE ME!

Hezbollah lives, works, and fights from among the civilian population. If not, the Israelis would have managed to kill off every last one DAYS ago.......without civilian casualties. You should quit being obtuse......do you think the Israelis targetcivilians for fun? How stupid would that be? A waste of ammo at best, and handing the enemy a propaganda blitz throughout the world at worst.
 

para-dice

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Colpy said:
[...]
The difference is this.....The Palestinians can not claim self-defense because if they stooped fighting they would be left in peace.
O rly? So the Pals should just "bend over" while the Israeli's steal thier lands? Is that how it works? It's the military occupation and Israeli land thefts which creates resistance to Zionism, not the other way around.

And the Israeli's have never offered a decent peace plan to the Pals, Barak's most generous peace offer:
Former Israeli Foreign Minister SHLOMO BEN-AMI
" ... if I were a Palestinian I would have rejected Camp David."
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=140
Certainly the State of Israeli with its hired guns in the PR industry would like to argue that the military occupation is necessary to prevent terrorist attacks. This is patently false. Any people under military occupation would resist having their lands stolen. And let's not mince words, the Israeli's are stealing Pal lands, just like they stole the Golan Heights/Shebaa Farms from Lebanon. Yes the UN says Syria lost it as a spoil of war, yet the Arabs in this area payed taxes to Lebanon and consider themselves Lebanese. The UN dropped the ball on this one. We can thank the US's arm twisting for that.
"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...[Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot.

And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'"
The New York Times, May 11, 1997


This video explains all, it's one of Googles most watched videos:
Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696

Please vote on it!

What do ya'all think of the vid? Pretty sad isn't it? Kinda surprising the structural bias of the media isn't it?
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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[
quote="para-dice"]
Colpy said:
[...]
The difference is this.....The Palestinians can not claim self-defense because if they stooped fighting they would be left in peace.
O rly? So the Pals should just "bend over" while the Israeli's steal thier lands? Is that how it works? It's the military occupation and Israeli land thefts which creates resistance to Zionism, not the other way around.
You missed, i assume, Israel's total withdrawal from Lebanon SIX YEARS AGO, leaving the Lebanese with absolutely no valid territorial aspiration, and the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, forcing settlers out along with the occuppying forces, to say nothing of the fact you have obviously missed the fact the Israelis planned a significant (but not total) withdrawal from the West Bank. You missed the fact, obviously, that Israeli withdrawals from Gaza and Lebanon simply allowed the enemies of Israel to use both areas as staging spots for attacks into Israel. You also seem to have missed the statements of position of both Hamas and Hezbollah, both of which call for the total elimination of Israel......

And the Israeli's have never offered a decent peace plan to the Pals, Barak's most generous peace offer:
Former Israeli Foreign Minister SHLOMO BEN-AMI
" ... if I were a Palestinian I would have rejected Camp David."
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=140
Certainly the State of Israeli with its hired guns in the PR industry would like to argue that the military occupation is necessary to prevent terrorist attacks. This is patently false. Any people under military occupation would resist having their lands stolen. And let's not mince words, the Israeli's are stealing Pal lands, just like they stole the Golan Heights/Shebaa Farms from Lebanon. Yes the UN says Syria lost it as a spoil of war, yet the Arabs in this area payed taxes to Lebanon and consider themselves Lebanese. The UN dropped the ball on this one. We can thank the US's arm twisting for that.
BALONEY.

I might even grant that Barak's offer was not valid......not having debunked Juan's map on another thread........But the Shebaa Farms are a tiny area granted to Lebanon by Syria AFTER the Israelis allowed the UN to draw their northern border, Syria's ONLY interest was to give Hezbollah something to fight over. As far as I'm concerned, Israel should annex both the Farms and the Golan Heights. The Heights are a VERY important strategic area.
[
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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I'm asking because if you're talking about the Major's email it was written a WEEK before the incident.
 

Colpy

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Re: RE: IDF forces are terrorists and murderers and nothing

BitWhys said:
I'm asking because if you're talking about the Major's email it was written a WEEK before the incident.

I was, I thought it was a day...............Still, a week ain't long.

I just can't understand why the UN was still there.
 

gopher

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IDF started this entire episode because of its repeated incursions beyond the blue line:


http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0801/p09s02-coop.html

August 01, 2006

Hizbullah's attacks stem from Israeli incursions into Lebanon
By Anders Strindberg
NEW YORK – As pundits and policymakers scramble to explain events in Lebanon, their conclusions are virtually unanimous: Hizbullah created this crisis. Israel is defending itself. The underlying problem is Arab extremism.

Sadly, this is pure analytical nonsense. Hizbullah's capture of two Israeli soldiers on July 12 was a direct result of Israel's silent but unrelenting aggression against Lebanon, which in turn is part of a six-decades long Arab-Israeli conflict.
In the Monitor
Thursday, 08/03/06



Since its withdrawal of occupation forces from southern Lebanon in May 2000, Israel has violated the United Nations-monitored "blue line" on an almost daily basis, according to UN reports. Hizbullah's military doctrine, articulated in the early 1990s, states that it will fire Katyusha rockets into Israel only in response to Israeli attacks on Lebanese civilians or Hizbullah's leadership; this indeed has been the pattern.

In the process of its violations, Israel has terrorized the general population, destroyed private property, and killed numerous civilians. This past February, for instance, 15-year-old shepherd Yusuf Rahil was killed by unprovoked Israeli cross-border fire as he tended his flock in southern Lebanon. Israel has assassinated its enemies in the streets of Lebanese cities and continues to occupy Lebanon's Shebaa Farms area, while refusing to hand over the maps of mine fields that continue to kill and cripple civilians in southern Lebanon more than six years after the war supposedly ended. What peace did Hizbullah shatter?

Hizbullah's capture of the soldiers took place in the context of this ongoing conflict, which in turn is fundamentally shaped by realities in the Palestinian territories. To the vexation of Israel and its allies, Hizbullah - easily the most popular political movement in the Middle East - unflinchingly stands with the Palestinians.

Since June 25, when Palestinian fighters captured one Israeli soldier and demanded a prisoner exchange, Israel has killed more than 140 Palestinians. Like the Lebanese situation, that flare-up was detached from its wider context and was said to be "manufactured" by the enemies of Israel; more nonsense proffered in order to distract from the apparently unthinkable reality that it is the manner in which Israel was created, and the ideological premises that have sustained it for almost 60 years, that are the core of the entire Arab-Israeli conflict.

Once the Arabs had rejected the UN's right to give away their land and to force them to pay the price for European pogroms and the Holocaust, the creation of Israel in 1948 was made possible only by ethnic cleansing and annexation. This is historical fact and has been documented by Israeli historians, such as Benny Morris. Yet Israel continues to contend that it had nothing to do with the Palestinian exodus, and consequently has no moral duty to offer redress.

For six decades the Palestinian refugees have been refused their right to return home because they are of the wrong race. "Israel must remain a Jewish state," is an almost sacral mantra across the Western political spectrum. It means, in practice, that Israel is accorded the right to be an ethnocracy at the expense of the refugees and their descendants, now close to 5 million.

Is it not understandable that Israel's ethnic preoccupation profoundly offends not only Palestinians, but many of their Arab brethren? Yet rather than demanding that Israel acknowledge its foundational wrongs as a first step toward equality and coexistence, the Western world blithely insists that each and all must recognize Israel's right to exist at the Palestinians' expense.

Western discourse seems unable to accommodate a serious, as opposed to cosmetic concern for Palestinians' rights and liberties: The Palestinians are the Indians who refuse to live on the reservation; the Negroes who refuse to sit in the back of the bus.

By what moral right does anyone tell them to be realistic and get over themselves? That it is too much of a hassle to right the wrongs committed against them? That the front of the bus must remain ethnically pure? When they refuse to recognize their occupier and embrace their racial inferiority, when desperation and frustration causes them to turn to violence, and when neighbors and allies come to their aid - some for reasons of power politics, others out of idealism - we are astonished that they are all such fanatics and extremists.

The fundamental obstacle to understanding the Arab-Israeli conflict is that we have given up on asking what is right and wrong, instead asking what is "practical" and "realistic." Yet reality is that Israel is a profoundly racist state, the existence of which is buttressed by a seemingly endless succession of punitive measures, assassinations, and wars against its victims and their allies.

A realistic understanding of the conflict, therefore, is one that recognizes that the crux is not in this or that incident or policy, but in Israel's foundational and per- sistent refusal to recognize the humanity of its Palestinian victims. Neither Hizbullah nor Hamas are driven by a desire to "wipe out Jews," as is so often claimed, but by a fundamental sense of injustice that they will not allow to be forgotten.

These groups will continue to enjoy popular legitimacy because they fulfill the need for someone - anyone - to stand up for Arab rights. Israel cannot destroy this need by bombing power grids or rocket ramps. If Israel, like its former political ally South Africa, has the capacity to come to terms with principles of democracy and human rights and accept egalitarian multiracial coexistence within a single state for Jews and Arabs, then the foundation for resentment and resistance will have been removed. If Israel cannot bring itself to do so, then it will continue to be the vortex of regional violence.

• Anders Strindberg, formerly a visiting professor at Damascus University, Syria, is a consultant on Middle East politics working with European government and law-enforcement agencies. He has also covered Syria, Lebanon, and the Palestinian territories as a journalist since the late 1990s, primarily for European publications.



The world invaded Iraq to stop Saddam when he illegally invaded Kuwait. Yet, it has done nothing to stop Israel even though the evidence clearly shows that it has repeatedly violated Lebanon's borders. Therefore, contrary to the delusions of the pro-Israel pundits, Hezbollah is in the right in this conflict.
 

para-dice

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^ Ownage.
It's not often you see that kind of ownage in a debate.

I respect CSM, the truly offer non-biased reporting. As a matter of fact, they are probably my most respected internet site for coverage on the M-E.

I was going to respond to Colpy, but you have rendered that unmeaningful. I just want to say Colpy about your post concerning "Israelis planned a significant (but not total) withdrawal from the West Bank":

They'll only pull a few trialers out for the sweet PR coverage it gives them. Your claim of a significant withdrawal is unfounded. The future will show the folly of your opinion.

Just going to add the "coup de gras" to gopher's find, this concerns Gaza:

Noam Chomsky says the IDF started this:
"It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother. We don't know their names. You don't know the names of victims. They were taken to Israel, presumably, and nobody knows their fate. The next day, something happened, which we do know about, a lot. Militants in Gaza, probably Islamic Jihad, abducted an Israeli soldier across the border. That's Corporal Gilad Shalit. And that's well known; the first abduction is not. Then followed the escalation of Israeli attacks on Gaza, which I don't have to repeat. It's reported on adequately."

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=10577
 

gopher

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It's not often you see that kind of ownage in a debate.


It is an old expression that none are so blind as those who won't see. And the inevitable consequence of this type of closed mindedness is death.

In Nazi Germany people were subjected to an incessant barrage of lies from the powers that controlled the media and government. Despite the constant barrage, there were stalwart citizens who tried vainly to speak the truth. They would repeatedly challenge the Nazis to support their ludicrous claims with evidence but none was ever given. Instead, the patriotic challenges made by these heroes were met with a blitzkrieg of insults and charges of subversion.

In time Germany succumbed to the incessant Nazi lies. And it was destroyed in the process.

Today we see a similar pattern in the USA. Every single day we are subjected to incessant lies from Bush and the neo-KKKon liars who control him. But patriots such as the peace loving people that you see on this forum are not deterred despite the constant harassment that we get every day. The peace of the world will be at stake if the present course is not altered. It is my hope that all Americans will awaken to the self evident truths that we are presenting on this forum in order to secure that peace.
 

JonB2004

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gopher said:
It's not often you see that kind of ownage in a debate.


It is an old expression that none are so blind as those who won't see. And the inevitable consequence of this type of closed mindedness is death.

In Nazi Germany people were subjected to an incessant barrage of lies from the powers that controlled the media and government. Despite the constant barrage, there were stalwart citizens who tried vainly to speak the truth. They would repeatedly challenge the Nazis to support their ludicrous claims with evidence but none was ever given. Instead, the patriotic challenges made by these heroes were met with a blitzkrieg of insults and charges of subversion.

In time Germany succumbed to the incessant Nazi lies. And it was destroyed in the process.

Today we see a similar pattern in the USA. Every single day we are subjected to incessant lies from Bush and the neo-KKKon liars who control him. But patriots such as the peace loving people that you see on this forum are not deterred despite the constant harassment that we get every day. The peace of the world will be at stake if the present course is not altered. It is my hope that all Americans will awaken to the self evident truths that we are presenting on this forum in order to secure that peace.

DO NOT COMPARE BUSH TO NAZI GERMANY EVER! BUSH IS NOT LIKE THAT AND WILL NEVER BE LIKE THAT! BUSH DOES NOT LIE. HE HAS SCREWED ALOT OF THINGS UP, BUT HE IS NO LIAR! DO NOT WRITE IDIOTIC POSTS LIKE THAT AGAIN!
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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gopher said:
IDF started this entire episode because of its repeated incursions beyond the blue line:


http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0801/p09s02-coop.html

August 01, 2006

Hizbullah's attacks stem from Israeli incursions into Lebanon
By Anders Strindberg
NEW YORK – As pundits and policymakers scramble to explain events in Lebanon, their conclusions are virtually unanimous: Hizbullah created this crisis. Israel is defending itself. The underlying problem is Arab extremism.

Sadly, this is pure analytical nonsense. Hizbullah's capture of two Israeli soldiers on July 12 was a direct result of Israel's silent but unrelenting aggression against Lebanon, which in turn is part of a six-decades long Arab-Israeli conflict.
In the Monitor
Thursday, 08/03/06



Since its withdrawal of occupation forces from southern Lebanon in May 2000, Israel has violated the United Nations-monitored "blue line" on an almost daily basis, according to UN reports. Hizbullah's military doctrine, articulated in the early 1990s, states that it will fire Katyusha rockets into Israel only in response to Israeli attacks on Lebanese civilians or Hizbullah's leadership; this indeed has been the pattern.

In the process of its violations, Israel has terrorized the general population, destroyed private property, and killed numerous civilians. This past February, for instance, 15-year-old shepherd Yusuf Rahil was killed by unprovoked Israeli cross-border fire as he tended his flock in southern Lebanon. Israel has assassinated its enemies in the streets of Lebanese cities and continues to occupy Lebanon's Shebaa Farms area, while refusing to hand over the maps of mine fields that continue to kill and cripple civilians in southern Lebanon more than six years after the war supposedly ended. What peace did Hizbullah shatter?

.[/size]

GARBAGE!

I only got this far before the author completely discredited himself.

The Shebaa Farms IS NOT LEBANESE TERRITORY. It never was.

That after I overlooked the fact that the author ignores Hezbollah's stated aim; the total destruction of Israel.......Hezbollah IS NOT a defensive organization.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
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I was going to respond to Colpy, but you have rendered that unmeaningful. I just want to say Colpy about your post concerning "Israelis planned a significant (but not total) withdrawal from the West Bank":

Funny, you don't mention the Israelis' COMPLETE withdrawal from Gaza and Lebanon........and you should read a newspaper.....Sharon's policy of disengagement meant a withdrawal from most of the West Bank....
 

elevennevele

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Mar 13, 2006
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US generals had an open discussion with administration officials and finally came out with it that Iraq is falling into a civil war. Something which sensible people suggested was happening much early on, and even predicted this as a potential fallout as to a power vacuum ‘going in’.

US has about two choices as things deteriorate. Pick a side or start withdrawing. Remember what picking a side was like in Vietnam? They can't continue working on an Iraqi security force because they would no doubt be training and supplying people who would then take a side in the civil war.

Oh yeah, but sensible people said Iraq was a mistake from the beginning. Too bad sensible people were only able to watch in horror from the sidelines as hard-liners made all the decisions to what we have now. Republicans controlled all branches of government and had US news media to pump out government propaganda 24/7. Hardliners have been virtually unopposed.

They own the current state of affairs.

Now the same hard-liners are again allowed to enact their stupid vision of success over the Lebanese conflict. With such a ruinous record so far I ask why?

It’s time to hand over the keys because driving under the right wing influence is just going to get more people killed no matter how fast you think you can make it home.

Sensible people = conservate, moderate, liberal who were able to see past hardline reasoning to solving problems. Even Pat Buchanan who is far from being liberal recognizes the farce.