Hugo Chavez, the Richard and Judy tyrant who has brought Marxism back from its grave

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
3,893
46
48
BC
People are growing tired of him in Venezuela.

If that's true then they will get rid of him. Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't - see Iraq.

What I question is the notion of forcing freedom on people. IMO the US isn't very free and most Americans I talk to don't understand freedom. How can such a country seriously think it can force freedom? It doesn't even know what freedom is!

Freedom isn't the right to chose what kind of designer jeans you want. Freedom is about more choices not fewer. You aren't free if you have to chose from a list.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
Didn't make my stomach turn at all since it is useless info. But maybe if you go out and get more I'll read it. I'll need at least for MAXED emails of dribble like you posted.

I'm not surprised, after all none of it took place within your borders.

As long as it's kept hidden then it didn't happen, at least as far as Americans are concerned.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
63
It wasn't all that much work. Usually the link would be enough, but for you a little scrolling is a small price, the length of the article is a little sickening. When I first came across that, after 911, a lot of my sympathy for the US just sort of evaporated by the time I got to the end of the article. Didn't it make your stomach turn just a bit? It probably would have if you had read it, typically American you shut your eyes to things that do hurt your 'white hat' image.

You dismiss the whole article because of one point? You are welcome to debunk it, I could probably find some other links for that one point.

You could provide material that disputes the whole article, but since you didn't, apparently you can't.

Your sanctions against Cuba are over 40 years old, all because your gambling halls got shut down. How childish is that, really?


Im really surprised your so naive to think every nation on earth doesn't have a list like that (only longer due to the age of most nations).

As for Cuba, Try stationing first strike missiles on its soil. Don't pick a fight if you don't want to be in one. And thats from someone who generally likes Cuba and Castro.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
Like Chavez closing down TV stations and newspapers because they oppose him? Yeah I am against that type of freedom.

Do you get you info straight from the CIA?

http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/downloads/Venezuela Update January 2007.htm
Private Media is Respected in Venezuela

·Freedom of Expression and Free Speech are encouraged
Since President Hugo Chavez' election in 1998, the largely opposition-owned private media has gone on the offensive, criticizing the president and opposing his social, political, and economic policies. Despite this, protection of civil liberties, including freedom of expression and the press, have been honored.

·The private media moves from objective reporting to political advocacy
The private media has consistently attacked the Chavez administration in newspapers, radio stations, and television channels, so much so that their role has moved from objective reporting to political advocacy. It has been so dramatic that several journalists have even noted, "the five main privately owned channels—Venevisión, Radio Caracas Televisión (RCTV), Globovisión, Televen and CMT—and nine out of the 10 major national newspapers, including El Universal, El Nacional, Tal Cual, El Impulso, El Nuevo País and El Mundo, have taken over the role of the traditional political parties."[9]

·Democratization of a public good: the case of RCTV
Recently, President Chavez announced that the broadcasting concession for television station Radio Caracas Television (RCTV), a division of the business group 1 Broadcasting Caracas, which expiries in May 2007, would not be renewed due largely to its lack of objectivity and inability to report the truth on issues of national importance. “The airwaves are a public resource entrusted to broadcasters with the understanding that they will be used responsibly to serve the people”.[10]

In the days leading up to the coup in April 2002, RCTV and other private media stations openly encouraged Venezuelans to protest and take the streets to remove President Chavez. In fact, “…a group of top media executives rolled up in their limousines for a meeting with Mr. Carmona [the transitional president], at the 19th-century Miraflores palace.... Also present were Miguel Henrique Otero, publisher of the El Nacional group of newspapers, Alberto Federico Ravell, chief executive of Globovision (Venezuela’s answer to CNN) and Marcel Granier of the RCTV channel. “We can’t guarantee you the loyalty of the army,” a presidential guard heard one of them tell Mr. Carmona, “but we can promise you the support of the media.[11] And sure enough, when the tide began to change and the population rallied to bring back President Chavez and take back control of the Presidential Palace, RCTV broadcasted cartoons and reruns instead of reporting what was happening; a feat that no media outlet in the U.S. would ever get away with. In essence, once the private media owners realized the coup would not succeed, Carmona's "media allies conspired to suppress all news of its difficulties."[12]

On January 17, 2007 speaking in front of the Congressional Commission of Science, Technology, and Social Communications, a group of independent producers in Venezuela proposed to use the RCTV signal to enhance the artistic and cultural values of the nation and highlighted the importance of having public radio and public television free from corporate or political interference.

MEDIA BREAKDOWN IN VENEZUELA
RADIO:
AM: 214 stations
FM: 495 stations
Total: 709 Radio Stations
Out of those 709 radio stations:

State owned: 3 (YVKE MUNDIAL, RNV, and ACTIVA) Privately owned: 706
TELEVISION:
UHF: 64
VHF: 17
Total: 81 Television Stations
Out of those 81 TV Stations:

State owned: 2 (Venezolana de Television and VIVE TV) Privately owned: 79
PRINT MEDIA:
Regional Circulation: 106
National Circulation: 12
Total: 118 Newspaper Companies

All 118 Newspaper Companies are private
Source: Venezuelan Ministry of Communications and Information, June 2006
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
Im really surprised your so naive to think every nation on earth doesn't have a list like that (only longer due to the age of most nations).

As for Cuba, Try stationing first strike missiles on its soil. Don't pick a fight if you don't want to be in one. And thats from someone who generally likes Cuba and Castro.
Well they probably do, including us. How many nations are telling others how to run their country? That gets to be a much shorter list. It comes down to one single entry when you put soldiers (or CIA advisors) on foreign soil.

Try doing a little search of the history before you spout off. The casinos for the rich and famous (via US Mafia) were put out of business first. Once a country is (attempted) to be invaded who wouldn't look for support from another equally powerful nation.

You know Russia has said the very same thing about Iran right?

http://www.state.gov/p/wha/rls/fs/2001/2558.htm
U.S.- Cuba Relations

History
The relationship between the United States and Cuba for the last 40 years has been marked by tension and confrontations. The United States recognized the new Cuban government, headed by Fidel Castro, on January 7, 1959. However, bilateral relations deteriorated rapidly as the regime expropriated U.S. properties and moved towards adoption of a one-party Marxist-Leninist system. As a result, the United States established an embargo on Cuba in October 1960 and broke diplomatic relations the following January. Tensions between the two governments peaked during the April 1961 "Bay of Pigs" invasion and the October 1962 missile crisis.
Would you like a longer article on why there was a revolution in the first place?
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
63
Ya, yet no sanctions happened until first strike missiles came into being.

You can make all the excuses you want, but if your hostile to another nation, there is no reason they should be forced to bow to your wishes and trade with you.

Try holding up a store than going back in as a customer later. Maybe you had good reasons to hold up the store, maybe he owed you money or slept with your wife. That doesn't mean he's your slave.

Cuba chose to be opposed to the USA and not conduct trade. It made the choice and it can lie with it. Even if it wasn't Cuba's fault, too bad, You don't have the right to tell other nation's to trade with you. If Canada chose to block all trade with Liberia tommorow because we think their country has a stupid flag, thats our right. If they don't like it they are well within their rights to put their own sanctions on us.

As for what nations have put men on the ground to influence and control other nations. You ,again, are looking at a huge list (including Cuba). Every nation that has ever had the ability to, has.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
Ya, yet no sanctions happened until first strike missiles came into being.
Since you are incapable of looking up some simple facts, here you go.
http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/funfacts/embargo.htm
1960

March 17. President Eisenhower approves a covert action plan against Cuba that includes the use of a "powerful propaganda campaign" designed to overthrow Castro. The plan includes: a) the termination of sugar purchases b) the end of oil deliveries c) continuation of the arms embargo in effect since mid-1958 d) the organization of a paramilitary force of Cuban exiles to invade the island.
October 19. U.S. imposes a partial economic embargo on Cuba that excludes food and medicine.


1961

September 4. The Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 passes in the U.S. Congress. It prohibits aid to Cuba and authorizes the President to create a "total embargo upon all trade" with Cuba.
Louis A. Pérez, Jr.,
from his book
Cuba, between Reform and Revolution, 2nd Edition Pg. 346
"The U.S. trade embargo after 1961 had jolting effects. By the early 1960s, conditions in many industries had become critical due to the lack of replacement parts. Virtually all industrial structures were dependent on supplies and parts now denied to Cuba. Many plants were paralyzed. Havoc followed. Transportation was especially hard hit: the ministry was reporting more than seven thousand breakdowns a month. Nearly one-quarter of all buses were inoperable by the end of 1961. One-half of the 1,400 passenger rail cars were out of service in 1962. Almost three-quarters of the caterpillar tractors stood idle due to a lack of replacement parts."


1962

February 7. President Kennedy broadens the partial trade restrictions imposed by Eisenhower to a ban on all trade with Cuba, except for non-subsidized sale of foods and medicines.
March 23. President Kennedy expands the Cuban embargo to include imports of all goods made from or containing Cuban materials, even if made in other countries.
August 1. The Foreign Assistance Act is amended to prohibit aid to "any country" that provides assistance to Cuba.
October 2. The U.S. government cables all Latin American governments and NATO countries new measures to tighten the economic embargo against Cuba. As of today, the transport of U.S. goods is banned on ships owned by companies that do business with Cuba.



You can make all the excuses you want, but if your hostile to another nation, there is no reason they should be forced to bow to your wishes and trade with you.
How does the proper sequence of events end up being an 'excuse'?

Try holding up a store than going back in as a customer later. Maybe you had good reasons to hold up the store, maybe he owed you money or slept with your wife. That doesn't mean he's your slave.
Are you saying the 'resorts of the rich and famous' were not an issue of trying to overthrow Castro?

Cuba chose to be opposed to the USA and not conduct trade. It made the choice and it can lie with it. Even if it wasn't Cuba's fault, too bad, You don't have the right to tell other nation's to trade with you. If Canada chose to block all trade with Liberia tommorow because we think their country has a stupid flag, thats our right. If they don't like it they are well within their rights to put their own sanctions on us.
Not really, they would have been willing to buy spare parts for the American equipment that was there.

As for what nations have put men on the ground to influence and control other nations. You ,again, are looking at a huge list (including Cuba). Every nation that has ever had the ability to, has.

Can you name any that had a favorable outcome for the least in that Nation?
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
21,513
66
48
Minnesota: Gopher State
EagleSmack said:
Like Chavez closing down TV stations and newspapers because they oppose him? Yeah I am against that type of freedom.

He is a thug and his day is obviously coming. The last elections proved it. People are growing tired of him in Venezuela.



Fascists Musharraf and Islam Karimov who are so beloved by Bush and his fellow right wingers have done considerably worse.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
96
48
USA
If that's true then they will get rid of him. Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't - see Iraq.

What I question is the notion of forcing freedom on people. IMO the US isn't very free and most Americans I talk to don't understand freedom. How can such a country seriously think it can force freedom? It doesn't even know what freedom is!

Freedom isn't the right to chose what kind of designer jeans you want. Freedom is about more choices not fewer. You aren't free if you have to chose from a list.

Oh please. We are not free here in the US. Give me a break and I do not even know why I am responding to this.

Your designer jean analogy...are you kidding! Is there supposed to be an infinite number of designer jean companies...OR we here in the US are not free? We have arguably more freedom here in the US than anywhere. Sure Canada is a free country but please it isn't any more or any less than the US.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
96
48
USA
Cuba made a choice to be a thorn in the side of the US. They have spouted off for years about this winning the admiration of many. We chose not to trade or have any relations with them. Yet although they rail the US on everything they still have been whinning for the US to lift the embargo. The Soviet Union released the documents of the Cuban Missle Crisis and Castro wanted to start a war with the US. Kruschev said he was crazy because the Soviet Union would survive and so would the US but Cuba would cease to exist.

This is what they wanted and this is what they've got. They want to continue this archaic form of government then they can live with the embargo as they have.

And for Canadians...if the embargo is lifted...your little private jewel in the Carribean will be gone forever. It will be FLOODED with Americans vacationing in hotels that were once primarily Canadian Only.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
63
Since I am incapable of understanding simple facts, I shall post a long spiel that doesn't address the issue

It is America's choice who it trades with. It is not Cuba's choice who America trades with. If America decides not to trade with Cuba because its tuesday and the president can't find his slippers, that is the right of America to decide who America wishes to trade with.

Cuba does not have any kind of right to trade with anyone who does not wish to trade with it.

That is no different than you having the right to decide if you will let someone buy something of yours. You would be well within your right to tell me "No, I will not sell you my priceless heirloom, I will sell it to someone else, even though they will pay less".

Cuba is an enemy of the USA, it decided that, it cemented that and it is quite happy with it.

You are either incapable of understanding this or have decided their is no such thing as sovereignty , and Cuba has a right to tell another sovereign nation (the USA) what to do with its domestic affairs.

If you belief that, then surely you have no problem with the USA forcibley telling Cuba what to do in Cuba's domestic affairs then?

There is no side of this where Cuba is being wronged by the Embargo.
 
Last edited:

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
My goodness the ineuendo and veiled propaganda of this thread is amazing!

The United States has had missiles stationed in countries around the world for a very long time. The United States maintains a military presence in more nations around the world than Cuba or Russia or any other "aggressor". Americans have designed and implemented policies for other nations around the globe for decades and to imagine for a second that the perpetrator behind "anti-national sentiments" from Indonesia to Iraq to Chile to...well anywhere you care to name...is more influenced by Cuba and Fidel Castro than the American history of pillage rape and fomenting revolution and war ALL OVER THE WORLD is either hubris of astronomical dimension or ignorance so profound as to be stunning!
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
63
Along time?

I think someone needs to check into the reality clinic.

Missiles, Period, haven't been around a long time. Not even 1 lifetime at this point.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
96
48
USA
My goodness the ineuendo and veiled propaganda of this thread is amazing!

The United States has had missiles stationed in countries around the world for a very long time. The United States maintains a military presence in more nations around the world than Cuba or Russia or any other "aggressor". Americans have designed and implemented policies for other nations around the globe for decades and to imagine for a second that the perpetrator behind "anti-national sentiments" from Indonesia to Iraq to Chile to...well anywhere you care to name...is more influenced by Cuba and Fidel Castro than the American history of pillage rape and fomenting revolution and war ALL OVER THE WORLD is either hubris of astronomical dimension or ignorance so profound as to be stunning!

Oh and Canada hasn't? Ohhhhh...excuse me...they are "Peace Keepers".

During the days of the Cold War the Soviets had their people all over the world as well. They had their hands in just as much mischief as we did. Also when they were funded by the Soviets, Cubans had soldiers in Africa. South East Asia, and Central America. Now what would Cuban Revolutionaries be doing in Angola? Grenada? Interferring with other countries that's what. Butting into other nations affairs. I guess it is OK for Communist and Socialist to spread their dialog, by force if neccessary. Heck we get blamed for it if we had nothing to do with it as the long list shows.

If they want to trade...if they want the embargo lifted...they have to deal. If they don't want to deal...oh well.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
It is America's choice who it trades with. It is not Cuba's choice who Cuba trades with. If America decides not to trade with Cuba because its tuesday and the president can't find his slippers, that is the right of America to decide who America wishes to trade with.

LOL, this time it has bit them in the ass.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14095881/

Oh, now there might be a profit it's not such a good idea. It's fine if you don't want to deal with them, but don't bother extending that embargo to include other Nations.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
96
48
USA
LOL, this time it has bit them in the ass.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14095881/

Oh, now there might be a profit it's not such a good idea. It's fine if you don't want to deal with them, but don't bother extending that embargo to include other Nations.

LOL... July 2006!

I love how you pull an article from almost two years ago and CONVENIENTLY leave out the date. Amateur.

Yeah...they said it would bite us...it hasn't yet now has it?

Oh yeah...they are ROLLING in oil and have us crawling and begging.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
Here's one a little more recent, and the US is still out in the cold.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/2007-02-22-cuba-usat_x.htm

"
There's just one problem: politics. Since 1962, the U.S. has maintained an economic embargo of Cuba, aimed at toppling the communist government of Fidel Castro. The ailing dictator, who has outlasted nine U.S. presidents, last summer handed power temporarily to his brother, Raul, while he recovers from abdominal surgery. Companies such as ExxonMobil (XOM), Chevron (CVX) and Halliburton (HAL), however, remain barred from the Cuban market, which a 2001 Rice University study said could be worth up to $3 billion annually."
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
MHz, is it the anti Americanism you get off on? Or do you really believe that Chavez and Castro are great people, deserving our support?
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
3,893
46
48
BC
For myself it isn't a question of whether Chavez or Castro are great people (great people do great things) but the belief somehow Americans are greater. I don't buy that propaganda. Americans have been lucky in that they stole a very rich and plentiful land from the native Americans. They are still ridding the momentum of that fortune but it is starting to wain and the US is becoming imperialistic as a result. This has happened so often over the coarse of history.

The US generally treat lesser countries like their chattel and anyone is wise to avoid them if they happen to be in one of those countries. It is due to the great ignorance of the American population that they don't realize their fortune is born from their country (the actual land itself). They wrongly and arrogantly think it has something to do with them and their system. The fact is that it has nothing to do with them - they got lucky (the Indians didn't) - that is all.

As a result they think their system is the best despite all evidence to the contrary. They have many misconceptions of themselves and their abilities. This is often the case with people who inherit their wealth.

Castro and Chavez are great men in that they have kept their countries out of that most covetous eagles clutches.

Look at the life of Cubans under Batista. That is what the Americans have to offer - ****.