How the GW myth is perpetuated

[Tonington]

Tonnington- Do your really believe deep down in your heart this 22,000km sq heat trap only amounts to 440W as claimed by IPCC's 1999 "Aviation and Global Warming (now known as Climate Change) Special Report" of 0.02Wmsq?

4.4 100W light bulbs of heat trapped? If that isn't bull**** I don't know what is.

That's net. It traps more than that, but the clouds also reflect incoming solar.

You yourself posted 3.5 milliwatts to 17 milliwatts per square meter when you quoted a paragraph from wikipedia...and if we use your numbers, that's a range of 77 watts to 374 watts over that same 22,000 km2 . So, the IPCC is actually posting a larger radiative forcing than the material you posted.

:lol:

If you disagree with yourself, perhaps you should be more selective in your posting...

 

[petros]

And you yourself know full well that is an impossibly low number.

 

[Tonington]

And you yourself know full well that is an impossibly low number.

No, not really.

 

[petros]

What makes you think that?

How does IR go through a white cloud of vapour easier than one that is transparent?

Pink (IR) contrails at night sailors delight?

 

[Tonington]

What makes you think that?

From reading what the experts in the field have found. You've posted some of it in here too. How can you post something as evidence for something you're arguing (with whom I'm not sure) but then disagree with it?

That is curious...

 

[mentalfloss]

Pssst.

According to image info this one covers a mere 22,000km sq

And for that food problem......

Adam??? Adam Curry? Is that you?

 

[petros]

From reading what the experts in the field have found. You've posted some of it in here too. How can you post something as evidence for something you're arguing (with whom I'm not sure) but then disagree with it?

That is curious...

How does IR go through a white cloud of vapour easier than one that is transparent?

Water vapour and combustion facts...

Burn methane (CH4) and you get CO2 + 2H2O
Ethanol (C2H5) gives 4CO2 + 5H2O
Propane (C3H8) gives 3CO2 + 4H2O
Benzene (C6H6) gives 6CO2 + 3H2O.
Alkane hydrocarbons follow the formula C H (2n+2) .... Heavy oils, for example, C18H34 give 18CO2 + 17H2O


According to WorldWatch, in 2005 we burnt some 3800M tons of oil and 2200M tons (oil equivalent) of gas, making a total of 6000M tons of petroleum fuels excluding coal, bio-mass, methanol and ethanol. Crudely speaking, we put as much water vapour into the air as we did CO2 ......but since it is 10x more effective as GHG. In addition, we are pumping lots of WV into the atmosphere through other activities..

Drax power station (UK) is a coal fired station that uses evaporative condensers..cooling towers...which take water from a local river.

Of 59M tons of water taken annually, only 29M tons are returned to the river, the rest goes into the atmosphere.....the equivalent of 310M tons of CO2 or 0.01% of the 27,000M tons of CO2 emitted globally. From ONE power station.

www.draxgroup.plc.uk/files/page/916/Drax_environmental_performance_review_2003.pdf

 

[captain morgan]

Pssst.

According to image info this one covers a mere 22,000km sq

Thanks Petros, I was unable to find that answer from the individual I initial had requested the answer.

 

[petros]

Thanks Petros, I was unable to find that answer from the individual I initial had requested the answer.

Why would he care? He has his bible from the International Pathological Church of Carbon and is wrapped in belief and faith.

BTW we did the math and the results will may make you spit your coffee at the screen in a fit of uncontrollable laughter.

 

[captain morgan]

Why would he care? He has his bible from the International Pathological Church of Carbon and is wrapped in belief and faith.

I mistakenly assumed that because he stated that he addressed the Q that he actually did.

BTW we did the math and the results will may make you spit your coffee at the screen in a fit of uncontrollable laughter.

I am not terribly surprised.

 

[petros]

CPT how are the oil field expansion plans going in AB these days? Tripling like here? Have you seen the size of the new jet fuel plant in Regina?

I bet it's big enough to wage a massive scale air war on the Cavity...OOOPS CARBON Creeps without getting a drop from anywhere else.

I believe the new runway goes in soon too for KC's to land instead of trucking to Minot and for 747's to fly fresh high quality beef to Asia and beyond.

Hopefully that means I'll get fresh blue fin in return.

 

[Tonington]

How does IR go through a white cloud of vapour easier than one that is transparent?

The white cloud of vapour doesn't cover as much of the sky as a well mixed greenhouse gas. As far as IR is concerned, neither is transparent. Only to your eyes is the greenhouse gas transparent, because we don't perceive that portion of the EM spectrum. As to why it isn't as strong as other gases? That has to do with molecular characteristics.

Burn methane (CH4) and you get CO2 + 2H2O
Ethanol (C2H5) gives 4CO2 + 5H2O
Propane (C3H8) gives 3CO2 + 4H2O
Benzene (C6H6) gives 6CO2 + 3H2O.
Alkane hydrocarbons follow the formula C H (2n+2) .... Heavy oils, for example, C18H34 give 18CO2 + 17H2O

You also get energy ...I know my organic chemistry, you don't need to explain functional groups to me. Those reactions only work for complete combustion.

But this is all hand waiving now. You've posted the information yourself here. Aircraft contrails and their induced cirrus clouds are a bit player in climate change.

 

[mentalfloss]

Something tells me he's just going to continue spewing what's been fed to him by No Agenda.

 

[captain morgan]

CPT how are the oil field expansion plans going in AB these days? Tripling like here? Have you seen the size of the new jet fuel plant in Regina?

I bet it's big enough to wage a massive scale air war on the Cavity...OOOPS CARBON Creeps without getting a drop from anywhere else.

I believe the new runway goes in soon too for KC's to land instead of trucking to Minot and for 747's to fly fresh high quality beef to Asia and beyond.

Hopefully that means I'll get fresh blue fin in return.

Lots of interest in the sector... Funny you mention Asia. Everytime that the Obama admin pisses and moans about CCS and dirty-oil, there is a little more action on teh pipeline to the West Coast.

 

[petros]

The white cloud of vapour doesn't cover as much of the sky as a well mixed greenhouse gas. As far as IR is concerned, neither is transparent. Only to your eyes is the greenhouse gas transparent, because we don't perceive that portion of the EM spectrum. As to why it isn't as strong as other gases? That has to do with molecular characteristics.

So visible vapour isn't a problem and isn't mixed with unseen vapour
which also isn't a problem?

Lots of interest in the sector... Funny you mention Asia. Everytime that the Obama admin pisses and moans about CCS and dirty-oil, there is a little more action on teh pipeline to the West Coast.

The Chinese already own a big chunk of the heavy oil heavy oil upgrading anyway. Pipelines to Prince Rupert are logical. Same goes for jet fuel over the rockies like Kinder Morgan is doing.

 

[captain morgan]

The Chinese already own a big chunk of the heavy oil heavy oil upgrading anyway. Pipelines to Prince Rupert are logical. Same goes for jet fuel over the rockies like Kinder Morgan is doing.

It was only a matter of time, but the whole deal is getting expedited due to politics. I'd wager that if a functional relationship can be established that will more trade with Asian communities, especially in the agri sector, (more) mining and forestry.

If this happens, the days of either Canada or the US leveraging their trade relationship is long over.

 

[petros]

We do have the second largest pile of oil in the world. No point sitting on it.

Iraq has a lot of unemployed oil workers. Send boats!

 

[Tonington]

So visible vapour isn't a problem and isn't mixed with unseen vapour
which also isn't a problem?

That's not what I said. Contrails cover a tiny portion of the sky, they are discrete. Well mixed long-lived greenhouse gases cover the entire sky. Both are opaque, in varying degrees to IR.

 

[petros]

Contrails are also known as vapour trails. So linguistics makes them AOK?

 

[Tonington]

Contrails are also known as vapour trails.

And condensation trails...and sometimes they form ice crystals. Speculate all you want, but the analyses you linked to show how tiny the radiative impact is on the climate.