How should Canada's wars be financed?

[Machjo]

We often talk of war, but always seem to ignore the financial cost of it, not only during the war, but also afterwards in caring for veterans and their families It would seem to me that any responsible citizen in favour of war, and most certainly any responsible politician, ought to have a clear idea of how our wars ought to be financed. Your ideas on this subject?

Personally, I'd voted option 1 above. War does not excuse a government from financial mismanagement. If we must go to war, then it's up to a responsible government to find a way to fight the war while balancing the budget. If the war is truly worth fighting, I'm sure people won't mind paying higher taxes to fight it, thus ensuring all Canadians, not just the troops, are making a sacrifice for the country. If we're not willing to pay for the war, then clearly it's not a war worth fighting.

 

[ironsides]

Good answer, I also voted 1 also.

 

[Machjo]

Good answer, I also voted 1 also.

Now I was thinking more of Canada specifically when I'd created this poll, but seeing an American responded to it too, I'd be curious to know how you think this applies to the current situation in the US too.

 

[Goober]

We often talk of war, but always seem to ignore the financial cost of it, not only during the war, but also afterwards in caring for veterans and their families It would seem to me that any responsible citizen in favour of war, and most certainly any responsible politician, ought to have a clear idea of how our wars ought to be financed. Your ideas on this subject?

Personally, I'd voted option 1 above. War does not excuse a government from financial mismanagement. If we must go to war, then it's up to a responsible government to find a way to fight the war while balancing the budget. If the war is truly worth fighting, I'm sure people won't mind paying higher taxes to fight it, thus ensuring all Canadians, not just the troops, are making a sacrifice for the country. If we're not willing to pay for the war, then clearly it's not a war worth fighting.

I think that all illegal refuges should be conscripted and serve. 2 problems solved.

 

[Trotz]

I vote for marginal interest war bonds. It would also be a democratic system, as ultimately it would be up to the individual to decide whether they want to put their savings into war bonds or not.


If there's one thing which annoys me are unaccountable and corrupt militaries that see themselves 'above' what they refer to as "whiny civilians".
The irony is that a year's budget for the Canadian military could probably support all the various reserve forces in Canada for a decade.

 

[Machjo]

I vote for marginal interest war bonds. It would also be a democratic system, as ultimately it would be up to the individual to decide whether they want to put their savings into war bonds or not.


If there's one thing which annoys me are unaccountable and corrupt militaries that see themselves 'above' what they refer to as "whiny civilians".
The irony is that a year's budget for the Canadian military could probably support all the various reserve forces in Canada for a decade.

The problem with that is that sooner or later the government must pay back those investors, at interest to boot, with taxes collected by the general population or by inflation which inevitbly hurts everyone, especially the poor. So those who invest in war bonds profit from the war while in the end everyone one must pay them and at interest too, as if the war itself isn't costly enough.

 

[Trotz]

Who said anything about a 10% interest rate? It can be so marginal like 0.005%

Regardless, you can make the interest rate so low that it can't keep up with inflation and we know there will always be inflation because of the FIAT currency. Worse case scenario, Harper can just print off money in Ottawa.

I think it is a price well deserved for "Patriots" and "Christian Zealots" who seem to think that the other 50% of us should pay for their wars.

 

[Cannuck]

We could pay for it by using the gold the Joos stole from the basement of the world trade center before they blew it up. Failing that, I like not having wars.

 

[Trotz]

We forgot option 5


Proletarian Revolution. We can just cut out on all the expenses just by conscriptioning all men from 15-40, arming them with a rifle and sending them on a charge. Don't forget to shoot deserters and retreaters!

 

[Machjo]

Who said anything about a 10% interest rate? It can be so marginal like 0.005%

Regardless, you can make the interest rate so low that it can't keep up with inflation and we know there will always be inflation because of the FIAT currency. Worse case scenario, Harper can just print off money in Ottawa.

I think it is a price well deserved for "Patriots" and "Christian Zealots" who seem to think that the other 50% of us should pay for their wars.

Alright, this is where idealism clashes with reality. I agree that most wars are morally bankrupt. That said, once a government highjacked by the bloodthirsty decides to go to war, it will get the money one way or another, and the whole population will eventually pay for it. They'll make sure of that.

The question then is how to minimize the damage. I believe that forcing them to raise taxes as soon as war starts helps the clueless masses to understand that war ain't free, thus possibly, if we're lucky, making them think twice before going to war. With war bonds, they get the false notion that war is profitable because of the new opportunity to invest in war bonds, not realising that they or a future generaiotn will be paying in taxes or inflation or high interest rates later. So if the goal is to reduce the chances of war while also reducing its long-term costs with interest, then it would make sense to hold governments accountable to balancing budgets at all times, even during war, thus making the people more aware of the real cost of wr rather than the illusory profit of war.

We could pay for it by using the gold the Joos stole from the basement of the world trade center before they blew it up.

Huh?

Failing that, I like not having wars.

Agreed. Before we embark on any war, we ought to be sure that it is a just war. If we have any doubts, then we don't fight it.

 

[taxslave]

I went with other because it would depend on the reason for the war. For places like Astan I was thinking of an extra tax on companies that exist solely to make war machinery. That would be over and above the cost of our standing army which would come from regular taxes.
Now if it was a humanitarian effort with a better chance of success than zero I might be inclined to use tax money as long as it did not create a deficit or raise taxes. A hopeless basket case like Haiti should be avoided at all costs.

We could pay for it by using the gold the Joos stole from the basement of the world trade center before they blew it up. Failing that, I like not having wars.

How about we just quit paying the Arabs ransom for our oil that they are sitting on?

 

[Goober]

I went with other because it would depend on the reason for the war. For places like Astan I was thinking of an extra tax on companies that exist solely to make war machinery. That would be over and above the cost of our standing army which would come from regular taxes.
Now if it was a humanitarian effort with a better chance of success than zero I might be inclined to use tax money as long as it did not create a deficit or raise taxes. A hopeless basket case like Haiti should be avoided at all costs.



How about we just quit paying the Arabs ransom for our oil that they are sitting on?

So how would we fund help for the working poor, the homelss, the menatlly ill. War seems to be the hot choice. Canada spends 1.4 % of GDP on Defence.

 

[Machjo]

I went with other because it would depend on the reason for the war. For places like Astan I was thinking of an extra tax on companies that exist solely to make war machinery. That would be over and above the cost of our standing army which would come from regular taxes.
Now if it was a humanitarian effort with a better chance of success than zero I might be inclined to use tax money as long as it did not create a deficit or raise taxes. A hopeless basket case like Haiti should be avoided at all costs.

Again, I see a distinction betwen reality and idealism. First off, I'll lay out my cards to give you an idea of where I stand.

Iraq would be a clear example of a war we should have avoided and did avoid. Afghanistan, I'm not too sure. WWII would be a clear example of a necessary war.

As for wars we shouldn't be fighting in the first place, I fully agree that I don't want to fund sucha war. But here's the thing. If a majority of parliament supports it by supporting budgets for it, then clearly that same group will not let anyone escape without making their contribution. That money will be spent on war whether we like it or not. It's just a question of whether they'll make us pay for it now, or with interest later. Between those two options, I'd rather pay it now.

Just to take another example of the distinction between reality and the ideal, let's suppose that next year the NDP form a majority in Parliament. First off, it doesn't get to write off the Afghanitan War contribution to the national debt just because the NDP didn't agree with that war. It would still be faced with having to pay off that debt whether it agreed to it or not, and there would be no way of introducing a tax only on those who agreed with the war.

So in the end, even the NDP would make us pay that debt, or so we'd hope if we are in fact fiscal conservatives.

Now if the issue is about changing laws to make it more difficult to go to war in the first place without careful scrutiny, then I could agree to that. But in the end, whether we agree with this or that war, we are still stuck with the bill.

 

[taxslave]

So how would we fund help for the working poor, the homelss, the menatlly ill. War seems to be the hot choice. Canada spends 1.4 % of GDP on Defence.

With a little cooperation we could cure most of our domestic problems just by having some people with business sense running the various ministries. The bureaucracy(better described as kleptocracy) has no interest in efficiency or the end result. they are totally consumed by weather the process works, not what the result is. In their defense very few have ever worked outside the civil service in any meaningful way and do not understand how business works.
A prime example is DIA and Northern Development. They have a budget of something like 9 billion dollars.So how come all natives are not disgustingly rich? DND has almost as many suits in Ottawa as it has men and women in uniform. WHY?

 

[damngrumpy]

The only practical way to finance it is option one. Conscripting illegal refugees is a real
bad idea, you would have people on the front line with questionable loyalties to Canada.
The biggest thing that has to be done, is to ensure Canadians know what we are getting
into before all hell breaks loose. We must also stand by our word if we go there. Yes
this nation is best at peace keeping, but the types of problems out there today means we
have a different role even if it were peace keeping.
We can build schools, hospitals and other infrastructure, but we have to be prepared to
defend progress made at the end of the day. Afghanistan is a prime example. When the
Taliban took power the actually disbanded the police service and the national army. We
are now faced with not only training these defenders of institutions the people doing the
job now need to be trained..
If we are going to engage in conflict, we must be prepared to pay the price and see the
military forces we are sending to the theatre of war are properly equipped and in sufficient
numbers to get the job done. There are times when wringing our hands and wanting the
world to be different is not an option. This might surprise some coming from someone
who is not in favour of war at all, but being practical if we are going to engage an enemy
we better do it right. In WWII we did things right. The problem is most Muslims are not a
problem, its the militant groups, and you cannot negotiate with a bully its that simple.
And for those who claim America is a bully, in some cases they are right, but there is one
hell of a difference between the Americans and the Taliban.

 

[Trotz]

The problem is that we have a lot of underqualified civil servants, most of which don't have university and sometimes not even High School degrees, and often remain in their jobs because of senority or because they fall under a 'visible minority' category. And even if the person is dismissed, because the government considers itself to tbe the largest relief agency, they'll just be reappointed to another department.

I know this from working as a teenager in a government agency and I had co-workers and bosses, most of which barely had a Highschool degree, who couldn't even use Microsoft Word nor Excel and their jobs, while paying out generous benefits, essentially amounted to trivial 'pencil pushing' jobs.

Those with brains simply go into the private sector!

The irony in that the United States is that the private sector is often more competent than the public, i.e. Virgin Air vs. NASA.

 

[Goober]

The problem is that we have a lot of underqualified civil servants, most of which don't have university and sometimes not even High School degrees, and often remain in their jobs because of senority or because they fall under a 'visible minority' category. And even if the person is dismissed, because the government considers itself to tbe the largest relief agency, they'll just be reappointed to another department.

I know this from working as a teenager in a government agency and I had co-workers and bosses, most of which barely had a Highschool degree, who couldn't even use Microsoft Word nor Excel and their jobs, while paying out generous benefits, essentially amounted to trivial 'pencil pushing' jobs.

Those with brains simply go into the private sector!

The irony in that the United States is that the private sector is often more competent than the public, i.e. Virgin Air vs. NASA.

So your limited experince as a Tennager to you becomes fact. I wonder who needs an education.

 

[Trotz]

So your limited experince as a Tennager to you becomes fact. I wonder who needs an education.

Tennager? :lol:
Try looking in the mirror, bud! Heh, I guess Goober is one of those Government workers struggling to use MS-Word.

 

[Machjo]

Canada now wants to extend its mission in Afghanistan. Fine. But will Harper acknowledge that Canada currently has a national debt and so either shift spending or raise taxes?

Or will he take the cowardly way out and just borrow and spend?

 

[DurkaDurka]

Canada now wants to extend its mission in Afghanistan. Fine. But will Harper acknowledge that Canada currently has a national debt and so either shift spending or raise taxes?

Or will he take the cowardly way out and just borrow and spend?

Machjo, professor of the obvious. Would you accept a cut in your welfare check for further cost cutting?