The trial of the Medicine Hat girl; who with her 23 year old boy friend, killed her parents; s underway. Does she have any remorse?
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How do children come to hate family?
- Thread starter jjaycee98
- Start date
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2007/06/04/medhat-day1.html
Trial starts for Medicine Hat girl accused of killing family
CBC News
A murder trial began Monday for a 13-year-old accused of killing her family in Medicine Hat, Alta., in 2006.
The girl has pleaded not guilty to three counts of first degree murder in the deaths of her parents and eight-year-old brother in April 2006.
The trial of her co-accused, 23-year-old Jeremy Steinke, will be held later.
The first week of the teen's trial has been set aside for a voir dire, legal proceedings that examine the admissibility of evidence.
Defence lawyer Tim Foster has applied to keep the public and the media out of the courtroom during this process. He has refused any interviews on the matter.
Fred Kozak, a media lawyer hired by the CBC to argue against that exclusion in court on Monday, said it was the first time that he has heard of an application to ban the public and the media from such proceedings.
"Our argument will be that the judicial system, including voir dires, have to be open and transparent and that publication bans have proven to be an effective mechanism that balance the fair trial rights of the accused with freedom of expression."
The teenage girl, who cannot be identified under terms of the Youth Criminal Justice Act, has been in custody at the Calgary Young Offender Centre for more than a year.
She is to be tried by a jury, which will not be chosen until next week.
MORE CALGARY HEADLINES »
Online messages talked about Medicine Hat killings, says witness A 12-year-old girl sent an online message to her boyfriend detailing a plan to kill her parents one month before her entire family was found stabbed to death in their Medicine Hat home, a jury heard Friday.
There wasn't much on Google - perhaps when the trial gets started...
This case is very disturbing.
I mean...I understand about hating your family (at times), but to actually murder them, I don't know...scary story.
What I wish we would learn more of, is this "relationship" she had with this grown man. A 12 year old child and a 23 year old man have no business being a "couple". I'm curious why he isn't being charged with statutory rape or child abuse? Maybe those charges will come later. But I'm sure why this issue isn't being raised at all. she was 12...he was in his 20's. children are easily manipulated and pedophiles and hebophiles are experts at manipulation.
I'm not saying she's innocent here...but I think this aspect should be explored.
I mean...I understand about hating your family (at times), but to actually murder them, I don't know...scary story.
What I wish we would learn more of, is this "relationship" she had with this grown man. A 12 year old child and a 23 year old man have no business being a "couple". I'm curious why he isn't being charged with statutory rape or child abuse? Maybe those charges will come later. But I'm sure why this issue isn't being raised at all. she was 12...he was in his 20's. children are easily manipulated and pedophiles and hebophiles are experts at manipulation.
I'm not saying she's innocent here...but I think this aspect should be explored.
Josephine
Agree with your post - clearly she was influenced by her 'man'friend and no doubt her parents were objecting to her having a relationship with a guy in his 20s. He probably exerted heavy pressure on her to get rid of cranky parental control of her life and suggested all kinds of wonderful times they could have together (with her quitting school).... if her parents were out of the way.... I can almost hear him saying "Just think if we were on our own - and the money from the house - if your mom and dad were gone"...
Whether there was booze or drugs involved - I don't know - unless she is suffering from some kind of retardation and able to be convinced of some pretty awful stuff by this creep who has Machiavellian
sway over her. Unless she is insane, she will have some pretty terrible flashbacks for her remaining days. Next to infanticide, fratricide or patricide is a mind-bend for a lifetime.
I would hope the bozo is incarcerated.
Agree with your post - clearly she was influenced by her 'man'friend and no doubt her parents were objecting to her having a relationship with a guy in his 20s. He probably exerted heavy pressure on her to get rid of cranky parental control of her life and suggested all kinds of wonderful times they could have together (with her quitting school).... if her parents were out of the way.... I can almost hear him saying "Just think if we were on our own - and the money from the house - if your mom and dad were gone"...
Whether there was booze or drugs involved - I don't know - unless she is suffering from some kind of retardation and able to be convinced of some pretty awful stuff by this creep who has Machiavellian
sway over her. Unless she is insane, she will have some pretty terrible flashbacks for her remaining days. Next to infanticide, fratricide or patricide is a mind-bend for a lifetime.
I would hope the bozo is incarcerated.
I could easily have killed my parents when I was 15. I was soooo angry about so many things. But I went with avoidance--avoide the 'rents at every opportunity. I got involved in EVERYTHING at school, found an older boyfriend (23 to my 15) and basically just came home to sleep. My parents had just divorced, my mom was dealing with things the best she could, so I had a lot of freedom.
I suspect the guy had significant influence in her judgement. With my older boyfriend there wasn't much I wouldnt have done for him at the time. I was just lucky that killing my parents never entered his mind. And he was basically a good guy who was just immature for his age. The only time I felt taken advantage of was when he demanded sex. And he did lots of things to make up for that--bought me presents and took me places, etc. Promised me marriage when I graduated high school.
Fortunately, I outgrew that boyfriend and the hatred for my parents. Took awhile for the parents though!
I suspect the guy had significant influence in her judgement. With my older boyfriend there wasn't much I wouldnt have done for him at the time. I was just lucky that killing my parents never entered his mind. And he was basically a good guy who was just immature for his age. The only time I felt taken advantage of was when he demanded sex. And he did lots of things to make up for that--bought me presents and took me places, etc. Promised me marriage when I graduated high school.
Fortunately, I outgrew that boyfriend and the hatred for my parents. Took awhile for the parents though!
We live in a narcissistic age, and teenagers are the height of narcissism. She was only concerned with her wants, her needs and her sense pleasures. Other people's humanity did not enter the equation because she does not recognize other people as independent entities.
Other people exist to serve her needs and desires.
Does anyone here think for a second this was a girl who did volunteer work? That anyone in her now slain family was generous with their time?
I am not blaming the parents - other than to the extent they were responsible for nurturing compassion and empathy, generosity and a sense of obligation to others in their children.
I am talking out of my behind here though - I don't know the girl, her family, and I barely know the case. So I am really only talking here in general principles.
Pangloss
Other people exist to serve her needs and desires.
Does anyone here think for a second this was a girl who did volunteer work? That anyone in her now slain family was generous with their time?
I am not blaming the parents - other than to the extent they were responsible for nurturing compassion and empathy, generosity and a sense of obligation to others in their children.
I am talking out of my behind here though - I don't know the girl, her family, and I barely know the case. So I am really only talking here in general principles.
Pangloss
Something struck me today when I was out in the company event how selfish a lot of people are nowadays...
What you're saying Pangloss really confirmed that unfortunately...
Switsof/Pangloss
If we were hooked up to monitoring devices for a couple of weeks we would be amazed at the levels of anxiety and fear we churn through on a daily basis. Much of this is occasioned by our fear of failure in life itself - because life has become so complicated and way so expensive.
Most of us are overwhelmed before we get out of bed in the morning if we have five minutes to review 'what we have to accomplish in a day'.... the pace of life is leaving no room for sharing or caring of anyone but ourselves.... to the point we almost resent worry about another person... even a loved one. Much of this reactive protection seems naricisstic and in a way it is - but primarily it is fear of failure.
Like we have to measure up to the creatures on television or something in our heads we view as 'perfect'.
Is there anything wrong with this picture? Absolutely.
You know, to play devil's advocate here:
It is possible her parents often abused her, perhaps sexually (one reason she may think a 12 year old and 23 year old belong togethor)
There are many, many reasons why her murder of them may in fact be understandable, even sympathetic if still wrong.
While many teenagers are bad people, with many immaturities, many of those teenagers then grow into adults equally as lowlife who have kids, kids they raise for their own selfish wants (either as status symbols or to live vicariously through, or with darker abuses).
So lets not jump to conclusions to quickly. For every psycopathic teen so evil they can kill their parents, there is an evil set of parents so abusive and wrong they drive their own children to kill them.
It is possible her parents often abused her, perhaps sexually (one reason she may think a 12 year old and 23 year old belong togethor)
There are many, many reasons why her murder of them may in fact be understandable, even sympathetic if still wrong.
While many teenagers are bad people, with many immaturities, many of those teenagers then grow into adults equally as lowlife who have kids, kids they raise for their own selfish wants (either as status symbols or to live vicariously through, or with darker abuses).
So lets not jump to conclusions to quickly. For every psycopathic teen so evil they can kill their parents, there is an evil set of parents so abusive and wrong they drive their own children to kill them.
Zzarachov
There are a multitude of reasons why a young girl would end up in this situation - the most obvious being she was enthralled with her 'first love'....
She could very well have been the victim of molestation within the family or extended family or had harsh parents who abused her emotionally until she found someone who used kindness and she wanted to be rescued from her intolerable home....
Writers cannot dream up the cruelties we humans play on each other .... even within the circle of familial 'love'.
There are a multitude of reasons why a young girl would end up in this situation - the most obvious being she was enthralled with her 'first love'....
She could very well have been the victim of molestation within the family or extended family or had harsh parents who abused her emotionally until she found someone who used kindness and she wanted to be rescued from her intolerable home....
Writers cannot dream up the cruelties we humans play on each other .... even within the circle of familial 'love'.
.... or they could have been a normal non-abusive family whose 13 year old daugher fell in with the wrong crowd. We don't know many facts but that doesn't mean she is somehow a tragic figure and the victims were some sort of monsters.
And even if they were, what sin had her 8 year old brother done to warrent his execution at her hands? 8 years old.
So lets hold off a bit on the excuses and understanding as to why this murderer killed 3 people until we have a few more facts shall we?
And even if they were, what sin had her 8 year old brother done to warrent his execution at her hands? 8 years old.
So lets hold off a bit on the excuses and understanding as to why this murderer killed 3 people until we have a few more facts shall we?
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The sad thing is we don't know if she was influenced by the older man, or if he was stupid enough to be under the spell of a twelve year old. WE don't know the history of the family or how well they did or didn't function as a family unit. To many family issues are swept under the rug these days, but someone should have seen some tell tale signs that all was not right.
A few decades ago, my wife and I were involved in foster parenting, and sometimes we had children with real challenges is so far as behavioral problems. You have no idea how manipulative some of the kids can be even before they reach the teen years. I can't imagine what must have been going through that childs mind that would allow her to do something like that.
All of you are right, a 23 year old guy should not be hangning around with a 12 year old, but keep in mind in your state of shock it may have been the child that was the ring leader, after all what smart 23 year old would be dating a child.
A few decades ago, my wife and I were involved in foster parenting, and sometimes we had children with real challenges is so far as behavioral problems. You have no idea how manipulative some of the kids can be even before they reach the teen years. I can't imagine what must have been going through that childs mind that would allow her to do something like that.
All of you are right, a 23 year old guy should not be hangning around with a 12 year old, but keep in mind in your state of shock it may have been the child that was the ring leader, after all what smart 23 year old would be dating a child.
This is a smart, restrained thread. People are making provisional conjectures, admitting the lack of information surrounding the story, and actually responding to the content of other posts.
My goodness!
How long can it last?
Pangloss
My goodness!
How long can it last?
Pangloss
I agree, so don't you think jumping to the conclusion she's a cold blooded murderer without proper information is just as bad?
You don't know the facts, so make note that that does not mean her parents were monster's and she was a victim (which is 100% true) then jump to the conclusion that she was a monster and her parents were vicitms (with the same lack of proof)
There is MUCH we don't know, and many reasons. Why did she kill the 8 year old? Maybe she was a monster, maybe it was an accident in some heat of passion, maybe it was a mercy killing and she intended to kill herself too (perhaps they were both abused and she knew it).
This is not to say she might not just be a monster.
This is to say don't go jumping to conclusions and making broad generalised statements about age groups based on incomplete evidence on one instance.
I did not refer to her as a monster but merely suggested the victims were not necessarly monsters. The only fact in this case is that she murdered 3 people, one of which was an 8 year old boy. I should have droped the adjective 'cold blooded' and just left it as murderer. Consider the adjective withdrawn.
Zzarchov
You are correct to advise caution and wait until the facts are before us....
My opinion is that any 23 year old predator who is interested in a prepubescent girl has nothing good planned for her future. I repeat my personal opinion only. But...
The statistics are in favor of what I outlined in my first post - that would be the majority of similar cases which have resulted in slain families of young girls who are mixed in with older "men" (I use the term loosely)....The only other scenario would be the disappearance of the girl with her lover - who is found months later slain herself...when she has outlived her usefulness to the monster.
These two kinds events happen daily in communities and may be overlooked by the media because they happen so often. The attention in the disappearance of a girl is the search - when she is not located - the matter is dropped under the assumption she is just another runaway.
I doubt there are any Shakespearean star crossed lovers here....just a sicko who has found a little girl to follow his lead.
But eventually we will all know the facts as you write.
You are correct to advise caution and wait until the facts are before us....
My opinion is that any 23 year old predator who is interested in a prepubescent girl has nothing good planned for her future. I repeat my personal opinion only. But...
The statistics are in favor of what I outlined in my first post - that would be the majority of similar cases which have resulted in slain families of young girls who are mixed in with older "men" (I use the term loosely)....The only other scenario would be the disappearance of the girl with her lover - who is found months later slain herself...when she has outlived her usefulness to the monster.
These two kinds events happen daily in communities and may be overlooked by the media because they happen so often. The attention in the disappearance of a girl is the search - when she is not located - the matter is dropped under the assumption she is just another runaway.
I doubt there are any Shakespearean star crossed lovers here....just a sicko who has found a little girl to follow his lead.
But eventually we will all know the facts as you write.
Pangloss
Agreed - and if I may add: Lawyers.... and of more recent note.... Judges......:angry3: