How can we get rid of our sinfulness?

[Dexter Sinister]

I don't believe anything that you believe, and you think I don't understand

If you did, there would be no argument.

No no, I can't let that one go by. Understanding doesn't imply agreement, acceptance, or belief. I understand completely pretty much everything both AJ and sanctus have said in this thread, but I think they're fundamentally wrong, because their basic premise, that there's a supernatural being who has some interest in us, I do not believe is correct. If you grant that premise, everything they say follows quite justifiably, and I understand that, but I don't grant the premise.

 

[look3467]

and the one who is, left our family, and, although we had a fine
relationship till she was 30 yrs old, she decided we did not fit in with her
"values" and she could no longer mix with us, which was very sad for all,
and that was 11 yrs ago, so I guess she is happy with that choice, and we
will, just have to live with it, much easier said than done.>>>talloola

I feel for you and as well as for your daughter. It really doesn’t have to be that way, but it is.
I used to believe as like your daughter, but I’ve learned to see through different eyes, changing my views in how I see people.

If your daughter saw the way I see things now, she’d be back in your home today.

My religious beliefs do not hinder me from loving you or anybody else that is of a different belief.

Though I may quote allot of scripture and teach of God and Christ, I now see through their eyes.

And it is not like what man sees.

I see where God loves His creation, His children and how He is as a Father.

I am a father of six, and can relate. I love all six as if I loved one.

And I won’t let anything come between my love for them.

Of course, it may not be the same for them.

Religion divides and puts a bad taste in some about God. But God is not swayed, He still loves His children. And He won’t let anything come between His love for us.

But then of course, it may not be the same for us.

Well, I’ve said what I was led to say. I’ve rewritten this post many times, each time I’ve changed it.

But now, I feel comfortable with it.

I took the greatest care to respect your beliefs and still be able to tell you mine.

I pray some day, your daughter will return to you.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[look3467]

No no, I can't let that one go by. Understanding doesn't imply agreement, acceptance, or belief. I understand completely pretty much everything both AJ and sanctus have said in this thread, but I think they're fundamentally wrong, because their basic premise, that there's a supernatural being who has some interest in us, I do not believe is correct. If you grant that premise, everything they say follows quite justifiably, and I understand that, but I don't grant the premise.

Well, of course, Dexter! It’s either you believe or you don’t period.

There are degrees in believing. There’s room for improving.
Many believers in God are not all equally matched in their beliefs. Therefore, there are differences of opinions.

In rejecting, a belief in God leaves no room for improvement. Rejecting God which is spirit, one rejects His spirit. Therefore, being spiritual dead. No need for a God of spirits.

Now, in the case of Brother Sanctus and my self, we are alive with the spirit of God, and are ever improving towards that perfect man which is Christ.

I, love as God wants me to love; all whom I come in contact with regardless of whom or what they believe.
If I don’t, then my God is not who I say He is.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[sanctus]

Confession, to be valid, requires actual sorrow

Marriage could be declared invalid based on a number of reasons.
Baptism could be declared invalid if not properly administered, etc,etc.

so............
Doesn't Holy Orders require ex opere operantis (an inner disposition which would include obedience)?

"Once a priest, always a priest" seems to contradict other sacraments being declared invalid.

You're confusing the point. If something is invalid, it is not necessarily, therefore, a Sacrament. Ordination sets a mark on the man as much as wedding vows on the couple. Any validly contracted Sacrament is forever binding. A valid baptism is a valid baptism, a valid wedding is a valid wedding, always and forever. Remember the Sacraments are God's Graces, an outward sign of an inward grace.

One a Sacrament is performed, and all the conditions which are necessary for its validity are met, it is forever stamped on the soul.

So that, a priest is always a priest because he cannot undo the original Sacrament. Now, if for example, a man is validly ordained to the sacerdotal ministry, yet never performs a pastoral duty in his life, maybe he works at a factory let's say, even so he is still a priest.

Does this answer your question?

 

[sanctus]

Although for the most part I consider myself a good Catholic, the one area I fall short in is the Bible. I read it nightly, but I don't necessarily try and interpret it. Oftentimes what I am reading , is applicable to something I may be dealing with in my life. I am very intimidated by those who can quote the Bible chapter and verse. It makes me wonder if I am the "good Catholic" I think I am.

You don't have to interpret it. Nor are you required to know it chapter and verse.Reading it is sufficient. Understanding what you can of it enough. It is not the whole of the faith, it is an aide to faith.

 

[sanctus]

well, thankfully he's still alive, but, what's next. It might take some time to[/I]
slowly bring him out of his despair, and although the other person mentioned
that putting them on medication is not her choice, sometimes "life over limb"
has to be considered, as we want them to stay alive, so that they can get the
emotional help they need, and hopefully as he grows up, he can gain the strength he needs to stay alive, and begin to enjoy life.

All excellent points. Funny, kids today have so much more available to them in terms of outreach and counselling then I ever did as a teenager back in the 1970's, yet they do not seem to avail themselves of these sources. Hell, they don't even need a parent's permission to attend counselling sessions anymore.

We have a fairly good Teen Health Centre in our city that I hope he will consider using.

Beyond that, as you noted, it will take time. It took time to get that way, so it'll take time to sort it out.

 

[sanctus]

I Christ like you mean? Are you? If you are a Christian, then tell me how you became born again?

I'm surprised at this question AJ! I thought you were immersed in the Bible! I was saved on Easter Sunday when Christ rose from the dead, the ultimate Sacrifice offered ONCE for all who will believe. Sheesh

But in the case with the 16 year old, spiritual encouragement when the hearts spirit is down, as having no hope, even denying that God could even help.

If: there is that word again, if, the young lad knew Jesus, he would have hope.

Obviously he doesn’t. He probably knows about Him, but does not know Him intimately.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

Spiritual encouragement is fine, and on one level I agree that a relationship with God would be good for him. However, having said that, the time of crisis when he needs spiritual and emotional support is NOT the time to preach at the boy.

 

[darleneonfire]

[/color]

I'm surprised at this question AJ! I thought you were immersed in the Bible! I was saved on Easter Sunday when Christ rose from the dead, the ultimate Sacrifice offered ONCE for all who will believe. Sheesh
.

Oh that is a very clever answer sanctus. I'm going to "steal" that one from you:smurf:

 

[darleneonfire]

All excellent points. Funny, kids today have so much more available to them in terms of outreach and counselling then I ever did as a teenager back in the 1970's, yet they do not seem to avail themselves of these sources. Hell, they don't even need a parent's permission to attend counselling sessions anymore.

We have a fairly good Teen Health Centre in our city that I hope he will consider using.

Beyond that, as you noted, it will take time. It took time to get that way, so it'll take time to sort it out.

Do you think raising kids in the Church makes them turn out better? Are there any demographics on this sort of thing?

 

[mapleleafgirl]

But in the case with the 16 year old, spiritual encouragement when the hearts spirit is down, as having no hope, even denying that God could even help.

If: there is that word again, if, the young lad knew Jesus, he would have hope.

Obviously he doesn’t. He probably knows about Him, but does not know Him intimately.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

thas bs aj. telling him about jesus when he just tried to off himself is not going to get anywhere.

 

[mapleleafgirl]

Makes no difference, the message is still the same. Peace>>>AJ:love9:

how come everytime you get proven wrong on something you turn around and say it dosent matter. first you say the one bible is the first, sanctus proves you were wrong, and now it dosent matter. just like that other stuff about books being taken out of the bible. you said it didnt matter. so, if you are so in love with the bible why dosent it matter? is it ok to take stuff out of the bible or take it any old way you want? what is somebody wanted to redo the bible and take out half of te books that you have-would that still be ok with you?sounds kinda wacked for a guy who worships the book to not care about the facts about it.

 

[talloola]

I feel for you and as well as for your daughter. It really doesn’t have to be that way, but it is.
I used to believe as like your daughter, but I’ve learned to see through different eyes, changing my views in how I see people.

If your daughter saw the way I see things now, she’d be back in your home today.

My religious beliefs do not hinder me from loving you or anybody else that is of a different belief.

Though I may quote allot of scripture and teach of God and Christ, I now see through their eyes.

And it is not like what man sees.

I see where God loves His creation, His children and how He is as a Father.

I am a father of six, and can relate. I love all six as if I loved one.

And I won’t let anything come between my love for them.

Of course, it may not be the same for them.

Religion divides and puts a bad taste in some about God. But God is not swayed, He still loves His children. And He won’t let anything come between His love for us.

But then of course, it may not be the same for us.

Well, I’ve said what I was led to say. I’ve rewritten this post many times, each time I’ve changed it.

But now, I feel comfortable with it.

I took the greatest care to respect your beliefs and still be able to tell you mine.

I pray some day, your daughter will return to you.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

Thank you for your thoughts, yes, I agree that our religious/nonreligious beliefs should not come between our love for our families, and friends. I tried to make that an agreement many years ago with our daughter, but she would have no part of it, and I guess she felt that she didn't want herself, and her two children having anymore influence from our family, so she completely "opted" out, and
won't have any communication at all.

 

[look3467]

how come everytime you get proven wrong on something you turn around and say it dosent matter. first you say the one bible is the first, sanctus proves you were wrong, and now it dosent matter. just like that other stuff about books being taken out of the bible. you said it didnt matter. so, if you are so in love with the bible why dosent it matter? is it ok to take stuff out of the bible or take it any old way you want? what is somebody wanted to redo the bible and take out half of te books that you have-would that still be ok with you?sounds kinda wacked for a guy who worships the book to not care about the facts about it.

The message is what is key, maple. That's my whole point. Everybody has a hang up on something trivial, such as 72 books verss 66. Or the bible written at a later date, or the stories are fantasies, etc. etc.

The message is clear in the whole of the bible for all of us to see.
The message is that God loves us, you, me and every living soul that ever broke the womb.

Love sees through a multitude of things, obstacles, walls, religious beliefs.

Just look at the members who post on this board, how diverse are we. Why?

We all know how to love, right? Why then is love not the first priority?

Why does human opinions of belief divide us? If we can love without God, then why is there wars? If we claim to know God why do we still war?

The reason is, because we all have not come to believe and understand what the love of God is.
Unity of spirit (of the love of God) unites us all regardless of who we are.

That is the goal, that is the message that is prevalent throughout the books of the bible.
Jesus prayed and said: Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Look it up, study it, and then contest it if you will. read the four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and tell me what you see?
Then read the books written by Paul about Jesus, and then tell me what you see?
Meditate on them, and pray God that He will reveal what is in those books.

I challenge all of you, if you want to discuss the bible, read it and study it, then lets talk.
Take any scripture, any book of the bible, and lets talk.

A good lawyer will study the case if he wants to to win it.

I would venture to say, if you all did that with the right motive, you too would be of a different mind.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[sanctus]

The message is what is key, maple. That's my whole point. Everybody has a hang up on something trivial, such as 72 books verss 66. Or the bible written at a later date, or the stories are fantasies, etc. etc.

The message is clear in the whole of the bible for all of us to see.
The message is that God loves us, you, me and every living soul that ever broke the womb.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

It seems to me you're missing the point, my friend. The point being is, simply, if the Bible is the Written word of God, and you accept that this is so, can any man for any reason change or subtract whole books from it. What is your answer to that?

 

[sanctus]

Thank you for your thoughts, yes, I agree that our religious/nonreligious beliefs should not come between our love for our families, and friends. I tried to make that an agreement many years ago with our daughter, but she would have no part of it, and I guess she felt that she didn't want herself, and her two children having anymore influence from our family, so she completely "opted" out, and
won't have any communication at all.

How very sad for all of you. Is she still in the Catholic Church? Not that it makes a difference of course, but I'm asking because this would seem an odd reacton for a Catholic. It sounds like more the behaviour of people in one of those "born-again" cults.

 

[talloola]

How very sad for all of you. Is she still in the Catholic Church? Not that it makes a difference of course, but I'm asking because this would seem an odd reacton for a Catholic. It sounds like more the behaviour of people in one of those "born-again" cults

I'm not 100% sure of her religion, but I suspect that she took on the religion of
her husband and his mother, and I think this is where the total inflexability
began. As soon as he found out we were not participating in the church and
really did not believe, he, first turned his back on us, and she followed suit.

 

[sanctus]

I'm not 100% sure of her religion, but I suspect that she took on the religion of
her husband and his mother, and I think this is where the total inflexability
began. As soon as he found out we were not participating in the church and
really did not believe, he, first turned his back on us, and she followed suit.

Ahh, sounds like one of those born-again sects. I had exposure once to people who converted from just such a bunch. Their stories of what they shunned were extraordinary to me! I wonder, in your daughters new faith, if they've forgotten about "Honour thy mother and father"?

 

[sanctus]

A good lawyer will study the case if he wants to to win it.

I would venture to say, if you all did that with the right motive, you too would be of a different mind.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

However, AJ, we are not lawyers. We are average folk, most of us. And what is the "right" motive? Who is determining which motive is right and which is not? What if our "right" motive would have us dismiss two of the Gospels. You yourself said it was not important, that the message is what matters. What if we dismiss all of the book of Acts? OR better yet, rip them from the pages of our Bibles.

If you truly believe this collecton of books is important to learn about God, you surely cannot support removing books from the Canon of Scripture based on a whim? That is what Luther did.

 

[talloola]

Ahh, sounds like one of those born-again sects. I had exposure once to people who converted from just such a bunch. Their stories of what they shunned were extraordinary to me! I wonder, in your daughters new faith, if they've forgotten about "Honour thy mother and father

a long time ago, I'm afraid.
And, when my husband and I talk about some of the things that happened in our
childhoods, some of which were not very good, we have "never" given one thought to shunning our parents, or "just" walking away from the family.
I can't relate to that move at all. Her childhood was a cakewalk compared to
ours and many other people I have known. So, one cannot tell what the future
will bring.

 

[mapleleafgirl]

childhoods, some of which were not very good, we have "never" given one thought to shunning our parents, or "just" walking away from the family.
I can't relate to that move at all. Her childhood was a cakewalk compared to
ours and many other people I have known. So, one cannot tell what the future
will bring.

my dad did the same thing to us. when i was like 10 he got "saved" and spent two years tormenting us with bible quotes every frickin' minute and telling us we were going to hell all the time. he wanted my mom to throw the tv out cos he said it was from the devil and we werent allowed to have a computer. finally he just took off cos we were all satans spawn or something. even now he wont talk to us at all. thats why i dont trust all that born-again crap cos its not about loving its all about judging.