How can we get rid of our sinfulness?

look3467

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Mankind is the only "savior" of the world, and he is also becoming the possible
"killer" of the world , there is noone else, we have to take care of our
world, or it will someday be gone.

Talloola, why suppose we need God? Mankind is a natural beast, with beastly desires.
Only God can tame those desires and make us like Himself.

If the religious people of the world could put their energy to "real" problems and
"remedies", possibly we all could make the world a better place.

Your statement is absolutely right, but it takes time. Just look how much the religious community has grown since Jesus was here? The religious community is much like as a child, growing up learning to be an adult, going through all kinds of experiences and changes, all with the goal of being like God Himself.
If each one of us would demonstrate His love to our neighbor correctly, it wouldn’t take long to get there.
But as it is, there is no gain in a quick fix, for otherwise, we wouldn’t learn anything.
That’s called suffering.

To see and read all the energy that religious people put into their beliefs,
makes me realize that they "just' don't understand anything that is happening
right here on earth, and it is up to "us", as the worlds "savior" to act and do
something about it.

You do have a point there, but just like there is in any religious belief, there are those who use it for there own benefit. (Money, prestige, glory etc.)

The "so called" christians who follow the leadership of George Bush, and will
not help any enviromentalist suggestions, certainly don't give a tinkers dam,
what happens to their earth, but I guess they just sit around stuffing money
into the republicans pockets, and walk around with their holier than thou
attitude, and wait for god to save them from anything negative that happens
on this earth. Well folks you are all going to hell, as not contributing to the
"health" of our earth is a sin.

Now politics can have both sides of the equation, it’s just a matter to what degree.

There are Christians on both sides of the equation on abortion, so the question is, what is the right thing?
I have my beliefs on that, in which I wouldn’t say here.

I don't mind and expect to be "trashed" in return, but please don't send me all
the bible scripture "crap", as I'm sure, in your world, your god is even getting
sick of reading it on this thread.

No, Talloola, I will not trash your comments, but instead use them to give encouragement to the idea that God is ever cognizant of what is going on, and deals with us separately and corporally through people.

If the cross is a sign of burdens, then all of us have to carry our on cross. We each have to deal with such things as we cross that bridge in life.
What helps is, knowing that we have a God who understands our problems and can help us through our trials in this life.
And if we do seek His help, we will find that we will triumphant over them in victory.
We will have matured through the experience and find that we that we are all the better for it.
There are many who can not understand this, and that is why I try to help.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:
 

look3467

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Heck, even the priest mentions getting tired of reading endless quotations:) Way I look at it, if it's too much for sanctus, it has to be too much for me.


Sanctus is a good man, but the true measure of a man is Jesus. If one is to compare anyone, then compare them to Jesus. For He is to whom we are trying to conform to.

Seriously though, that raises an interesting point for me. AJ, seriously, do you find a difference in Catholicism and Protestantism in the sense of Bible quotations?

Yes! And I’ll explain why. Catholics of which I once was, (Devoted for a time) knows only what they are instructed by the church. Which is OK, but not sufficient to know all that God wants us to know.
That is good for the beginnings of our journey towards God like people.
To really understand who God is, one must seek Him where He can best be found, and that is His word.
The word (Bible) is His revelation to us of who He is, and how He relates to us.

My education in the knowledge of the word grants me the use of the word to show others the same things I have been given to know. (Sharing)
And the same goes for everybody else. A discussion of the word is like honing one’s sword, getting sharper, meaning understanding more.

If your serious about learning more about God, then just keep on studying the word on your own, and with time and experience, you to will be spouting out scriptures as well.

But, let me warn you, it comes with a price. Ridicule, harassment, slander and many other things people can think of.

But you just consume it all up! With: love. Let them exhaust themselves, because your love is endless.
And that is Christ’s message, turn the other cheek. Take it, and love in return.
Love conquers all.

I mean, my brother is an Anglican priest, a branch of Catholicism, and sanctus is a Catholic. Sanctus answers questions directly, without once making you think he does not believe. Same as my brother. Yet neither loads their comments with bible quotes. I mean, in my mind it isn't necessary. For example, I assume sanctus knows the Bible, and if not he's in the wrong vocation:) He can reference his points without a list of quotes. (sorry for centring you out sanctus!)

If Sanctus understood what I understood, he too would quote scripture.
Catholics quote the Catholic Church; therefore, no scripture is used.
I quote God’s word, therefore, I use scripture.

Yet every "born-again" I know quotes the bible over and over and over, making me wonder if they forgot that God gave us free will. I assume that means he does not want tape recorders repeating the same information over and over. Instead, I assume he wants us to use our minds, hopefully on his behalf I suppose.

Everybody who is born again, will not quote anything else but the source by which they claim their knowledge from. So it is natural to do so.
But, again, that does not mean that that makes them “Mature” in word the word, for there are still many things to learn and apply them to our lives to indicate our growth.
That is why you see many born again Christians on fire for the Lord, spouting out scriptures, because they are new babes in Christ. They are all exited with their new found Jesus that they are all consumed with Him and must tell somebody.
But that wears off after awhile and reality sinks in again. And at that point, is where we have to thread water to get from point A to point B in understanding of God.
As we grow in maturity, we learn to love our neighbors and accept all who would come to God as brothers and sisters without any discrimination as to religious beliefs, colr or race.

My question, do you suppose this is why the Catholic Church still remains the largest Christian denomination, in that they are able, despite their "F-up's", to actually minister to people without bashing them about the head with the bible?

The body of Christ is not in religious organizations, it is in the hearts of people.
If the heart of the worlds peoples change, the world changes.

I'm on a ramble here, because the more I think about it the more true this seems. I used to volunteer at a food bank and one of the other volunteers was a Catholic nun. We all knew she was a nun and believed in her faith, but I can't recall once ever hearing her give off lists of bible quotes. Especially: to the patrons of the food bank.

So, if all are in agreement, then there’s no need to discuss any scripture, is there?
But, that food bank does give an opportunity to introduce God to folks who do not have nor had the opportunity to know Him.
I mean where suppose all the goodness comes from that you demonstrate? God: of course.

Do you think sancus might have a point, and that Jesus wants us to minister with our hands and not with our mouths?

Both! I’ve got to give you a scripture here which answers that question, and if you have your catholic bible handy, you’ll find it there to: Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

We heard it, and God demonstrated it. God’s prophecies of the coming of His Son, and He performed it. Word, and action.

God is still doing it today. He tells us about His Son, and if we listen, He performs spiritual surgery on our hearts and transforms us in to new creatures.

I hope I answered your questions and just to let you know, I welcome any more.

Peace>>>AJ
 

look3467

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faith, delusion... almost the same thing till we find out the truth
No faith in any of the two, will ever have the truth.
Faith in a delusion, becomes in it's self an illusion, but faith in God doesn't, for it produces results.
Maybe not in some, because faith is not exercised, but it does in those who do.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:
 

L Gilbert

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You know Gilbert, that I have no problem believing all you say about science, and am rather awed by such interesting things.
Well, I'm usually pretty sure of what I say.

The burning bush did not burn because it is the fire of God.
But it's not a repeatable experiment, so the deed probably didn't happen in the first place. Most likely whoever the critter was that found the burning bush talking to him had too much beer or had eaten the wrong type of berry. ;)

Example: If you wanted something really bad, that your heart ached for it.

That is a burning sensation in your heart.

That kind of burning is a spiritual burning, that burns only in the spiritual realm and not as a material realm.
Well, I don't yearn for much and I never mistake yearning for heartburn. Actually, I rarely get heartburn, either.

God is an all consuming fire, that burns all our sins away.

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

He consumed the tree of Knowledge for us and took it’s power away.
Ah, just like the gov't likes to do, keep em dumb and they'll be happy.

Notice the creation story with a tree in the midst of the garden as being a curse to those who would eat of its fruit?
Well, we all eat of it as we grow from a child to adult hood. And so we are cursed to death. (Spiritually speaking, meaning eternal separation from God)

The bible says: Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Uhuh. I already posted my opinion on creation.

Jesus bought that tree, hook, line and sinker, and took that curse away from us.
And He hung for it!

That is the “Good News” that should be thought around the world.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:
Well, I suck in all kindsa knowledge off of trees ( that's what paper is made from and books. mags, etc. are made from paper) and don't feel particularly cursed by it. But if someone wants to do himself in over my alleged curse, I don't wanna know about it. Hey..........maybe that's the thing, gov'ts developed religions to keep people from getting too wise and smart.
 

L Gilbert

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Both! I’ve got to give you a scripture here which answers that question, and if you have your catholic bible handy, you’ll find it there to: Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

We heard it, and God demonstrated it. God’s prophecies of the coming of His Son, and He performed it. Word, and action.

God is still doing it today. He tells us about His Son, and if we listen, He performs spiritual surgery on our hearts and transforms us in to new creatures.

I hope I answered your questions and just to let you know, I welcome any more.

Peace>>>AJ
Well, the more I hear something that tells me what i should believe, how I should believe it, and when to believe it without a rational argument as to WHY is should believe it, the less likely I am to actually believe it and hence set out to discover things my own way. "Mysterious ways", "So-and-so is omnipotent and omniscient", etc. are not reasonable arguments but simply unsupported claims. IOW, from the beginning again, why should I believe in something that appears to be nothing but some fantastic fad started a couple thousand years ago when there is no evidence supporting a basis for such a fad? And why would I believe in that but not Santa, leprachauns, tooth faeries, Isis, Krishna, poltergeists, iceworms, and sparkplugs for master cylinders or bearings for mufflers?
 

L Gilbert

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No faith in any of the two, will ever have the truth.
Faith in a delusion, becomes in it's self an illusion, but faith in God doesn't, for it produces results.
Maybe not in some, because faith is not exercised, but it does in those who do.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:
Nuts. People produce results whether they have faith in something or not. It has more to do with hard work than belief. Actually accident has more to do with results than faith, also.
 

selfactivated

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Nobody seems to have mentoned that the boy should be clearly informed that suicide is a sin. I'm surprised you didn't mention this Sanctus! Or did you and just not share it with us?

Are you out of your mind? Ive tried to end my life with more fervor than most try to breath.......the last thing your wanting is a lecture! At that point in your life your just needing a friggin hug a soft place to land a kind voice telling you you have value and your Loved. NOT by some god but by flesh and blood. You just need to be needed. Its not the time to scold or judge. ......
 

selfactivated

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With respect, and Self can back me up on this based on a previous conversation with her, what I said or did not say to this young man is none of your business and I will not share any of those conversations here.

I will say, however, that the time to point fingers at people with admonishments is NOT when they are in the middle of a crisis. It is counter-productive and is, in my opinion, simply cruel. We are not called, as Christians, to do so. We are called to help. In fact, more than called, we are commanded by Christ Himself to offer help to people who request it. We are not, in such situations, commanded or required to "preach" at them.

Please excuse my "bitchyness" but allow me to point out the difference........I asked a hypothetical question based on my own experience to a subject that you brought up. I called another priest that had no problem of informing me of the churches standing.
 

sanctus

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If Sanctus understood what I understood, he too would quote scripture.
Catholics quote the Catholic Church; therefore, no scripture is used.
I quote God’s word, therefore, I use scripture.

That is utter and complete nonsense. If you were raised as a Catholic as you claim, you know better. The entire Mass is pretty well taken from the Scriptures, not to mention the Readings that are used AND the Daily Lectionary that is followed. What we do not encourage our people to do is use self-interpretation of the Scriptures. That leads to incorrect doctrine. The fact is, as much as you ignore it, the Church is the sole interpreter of the Scriptures as the Scriptures are the book of the Church. The Church existed long before a finalized Canon of Scripture was established.
quote=look3467;768204]
But, again, that does not mean that that makes them “Mature” in word the word, for there are still many things to learn and apply them to our lives to indicate our growth.
That is why you see many born again Christians on fire for the Lord, spouting out scriptures, .

[/quote]



I always giggle when people tell me they are "born-again Christians". It is amusing because it is utterly redundant. Christian means "follower of Christ", therefore it is clearly implied if one is in Christ one is born again.

To your point about spouting Scriptures, read them again and indicate to me where exactly it says to spout off Scriptures to people in pain and in need?
 

sanctus

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Do you think sancus might have a point, and that Jesus wants us to minister with our hands and not with our mouths?

Of course that is what we are to do, faith without works is empty, useless. Intellectual clap-trap with no substance. God does not judge you by the context of your academic knowledge of the Bible, but on your behaviour.
 

sanctus

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I don't know much, but I do know you're wrong. The KJV was first put out in 16ll. The first Bible was the Catholic one. In fact, I think sanctus mentioned it in this thread somewhere.?

You're correct, AJ is wrong. The first Bible translated out of the original Hebrew and Greek was the Latin Bible-the Vulgate. The first English Bible was the CAtholic Duay-Rheims, the standard still for the Church. The KJV, an excellent Bible, was not produced until 1611 as you already noted.

Maybe sanctus knows an online Catholic source?


Try this link, not a bad one:

http://members.cox.net/fidelis927/
 

talloola

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No, Talloola, I will not trash your comments, but instead use them to give encouragement to the idea that God is ever cognizant of what is going on, and deals with us separately and corporally through people.

If the cross is a sign of burdens, then all of us have to carry our on cross. We each have to deal with such things as we cross that bridge in life.
What helps is, knowing that we have a God who understands our problems and can help us through our trials in this life.

All of your reference to "us" in your descriptions re: god, has no connection to
me, that is only in your mind, and in my world that has nothing to do with
reality, so I can't even relate to those words whatsoever.

And if we do seek His help, we will find that we will triumphant over them in victory.
We will have matured through the experience and find that we that we are all the better for it.
There are many who can not understand this,
I understand thoroughly what you say, I don't "believe" it.


and that is why I try to help.

You are a good person, and I believe you are sincere, but it is like two people
talking to each other in two different languages, and they get nowhere.
I don't believe anything that you believe, and you think I don't understand.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
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You're correct, AJ is wrong. The first Bible translated out of the original Hebrew and Greek was the Latin Bible-the Vulgate. The first English Bible was the CAtholic Duay-Rheims, the standard still for the Church. The KJV, an excellent Bible, was not produced until 1611 as you already noted.




Try this link, not a bad one:

http://members.cox.net/fidelis927/

Makes no difference, the message is still the same.


Peace>>>AJ:love9:
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
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That is utter and complete nonsense. If you were raised as a Catholic as you claim, you know better.
All that I could at the time. Yes.

The entire Mass is pretty well taken from the Scriptures, not to mention the Readings that are used AND the Daily Lectionary that is followed. What we do not encourage our people to do is use self-interpretation of the Scriptures.
There lies the bondage. You bind folks to those things which the Catholic Church deems correct and if someone should counter that, well………you know the rest of the story.

That leads to incorrect doctrine. The fact is, as much as you ignore it, the Church is the sole interpreter of the Scriptures as the Scriptures are the book of the Church. The Church existed long before a finalized Canon of Scripture was established.
By your very words, you’ve made my case.



quote=look3467;768204]
But, again, that does not mean that that makes them “Mature” in word the word, for there are still many things to learn and apply them to our lives to indicate our growth.
That is why you see many born again Christians on fire for the Lord, spouting out scriptures, .



I always giggle when people tell me they are "born-again Christians". It is amusing because it is utterly redundant. Christian means "follower of Christ", therefore it is clearly implied if one is in Christ one is born again. Christ like you mean? Are you? If you are a Christian, then tell me how you became born again?

To your point about spouting Scriptures, read them again and indicate to me where exactly it says to spout off Scriptures to people in pain and in need?[/quote]

My error, spouting off was the wrong words to use. I used it to indicate or describe the excitement by which these new converts to Christ had.

But in the case with the 16 year old, spiritual encouragement when the hearts spirit is down, as having no hope, even denying that God could even help.

If: there is that word again, if, the young lad knew Jesus, he would have hope.

Obviously he doesn’t. He probably knows about Him, but does not know Him intimately.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
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All of your reference to "us" in your descriptions re: god, has no connection to
me, that is only in your mind, and in my world that has nothing to do with
reality, so I can't even relate to those words whatsoever.>>> talloola

When I say the word “us” is because we are all of flesh, with the same fleshly desires.
And God, because of the un-natural spiritual desires.

I understand thoroughly what you say, I don't "believe" it.

That is perfectly, all right, by me.

You are a good person, and I believe you are sincere, but it is like two people
talking to each other in two different languages, and they get nowhere.
You know something, you are absolutely right! About the languages, I mean.

The heavenly language verses the earthly language.

I don't believe anything that you believe, and you think I don't understand.

If you did, there would be no argument.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:
 

talloola

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When I say the word “us” is because we are all of flesh, with the same fleshly desires.
And God, because of the un-natural spiritual desires.

I understand thoroughly what you say, I don't "believe" it.

That is perfectly, all right, by me.

You are a good person, and I believe you are sincere, but it is like two people
talking to each other in two different languages, and they get nowhere.
You know something, you are absolutely right! About the languages, I mean.

The heavenly language verses the earthly language.


I don't believe anything that you believe, and you think I don't understand.

If you did, there would be no argument.
I understand everything you believe, and are trying to explain to me, I have
had enough catholic schooling, catachism, and church attentance, to have
a good grasp of the catholic religion, and what they believe, but although
I do understand, I, even after learning, have grown to, not believe. At the
age of approx. 12, I began to change, my brain began to dictate different
messages to me, other than what I was taught, and over time, and many
questions, I decided that, what I was being taught, just couldn't be, and
I have never looked back, even though, I married in the catholic church to
another catholic, and we attempted to raise our children as catholics, my
husband and I did not believe, we only went through those ceremonies in
respect for our parents. That is where I stand to this day, 48 yrs later, and
I am comfortable with those beliefs.
I did not discourage my childen from learning whatever they wanted about
"religion", as I wanted them to decide for themselves, and not to, just follow
what we think, and, one of my children is "quite" religious and the other 3
are not., and the one who is, left our family, and, although we had a fine
relationship till she was 30 yrs old, she decided we did not fit in with her
"values" and she could no longer mix with us, which was very sad for all,
and that was 11 yrs ago, so I guess she is happy with that choice, and we
will, just have to live with it, much easier said than done.

Peace>>>AJ:love9: