How can we get rid of our sinfulness?

[L Gilbert]

I guess we atheists can never love. :roll: As if love is the sole jurisdiction of the faithful. roflmao

"Oh, but, Les, atheists cannot know real love because they don't know god".

Perhaps not, but false as it may be, it sure seems strong enough to me, and my love isn't coupled with the jealousy of wanting to be the only god around, nor do I massacre cities, nor can I stand to see children (or anyone for that matter) suffer which seems to be no problem for your god, etc.

At any rate, my elements are plenty real enough for me.

 

[Sparrow]

How can we get rid of our sinfulness

Just a few comments about the neo-pagan movement.

(1) It always seems based on hodge-podge, catch-what-you-will spirituality. (This makes it appealing to anyone wanting to smorgasbord their spiritual thinkerings and tinkerings).

(2) You always hear conspiracy theory history. I especially like the bit about "millions killed" by Christians. Now, speaking realistically, how do you kill millions of people without such things as atomic bombs, gas chambers or bubonic plague? This charge is simply hyperbole.

(3) It's just a fancy mask for New Age thinking. Personally, I have conceptual trouble with a religion that just lets you do whatever you want to do.

I don't buy the "No Harm" clause: philosophically, the discernment of damage and harm always must be understood beyond the mere physical sense.

(4) It's connected with the glamourization of Olde Mother Englande. It's almost always the Celts they talk about; never the Vandals or Mongols or Romans. If you're really into Anglophilia, this "pagan" stuff might twitch your bone.

(5) Romans killed plenty of pagans; I suppose this is "Pagan on Pagan" violence. I've read Tacitus' account of Caesar's fighting against the Celts.

I don't know if you did'nt get my question! Why are so many religious people intolerant? For instance I have a sister-in-law who is a fervent church goer and participates in many of the church movements, she is very judgemental and extremely intolerant of others even her own children. When I was young my Girl Guide leader was one that went to church, often went to evening prayers but was the meanest, unpleasant, backbitting etc person I have ever known but boy she believed no one was a better Catholic than she was. My neighbor across the street is also a regular church goer but a more miserable character who abused his children mentally and still abuses his wife mentally and physically and he is also on the church committee. This is what I was asking about, did they forget that Jesus teaches tolerance, forgiveness and love. I never mentioned any pagan religion, there are Roman Catholics.

 

[look3467]

m_levesque;762787]One of the foundational beliefs of Protestantism is the doctrine of "sola scriptura" or "scripture alone" - which alleges that the Bible - as interpreted by the individual believer - is the only source of religious authority and is the Christian's sole rule of faith or criterion regarding what is to be believed.

If one could see, I’m saying “if” one could see, one would see that the whole God thing is in the bible.
Therefore, I see that, “the” God of creation has given us by letter and word the information to the secrets of his whole plan for mankind.

In the bible I find the church. The church is the body of Christ. Who then is the body of Christ? All those who are in Christ are “the Church”.

If the bible has no credence, then God is not real.

Therefore, in order for the doctrine of "sola scriptura" to be believable, it must be found within the pages of Sacred Scripture; otherwise, "sola scriptura" is a self-refuting doctrine and an extra-Biblical "tradition of men" that should be rejected as a false theological novelty.>>>levesque

When you did your studying of the bible, did you not see the prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah? Did you not see the legalism, the animal sacrifices, the priestly rituals and the separations between the Jew and Gentile?

At a time appointed, all that I just quoted came to an end. And a new beginning started.

I can show you the whole picture painted in the bible concerning God and mankind.

Unfortunately for those who hold this doctrine, there is not a single verse of scripture which actually declares that the Bible alone is to be viewed as the believer's sole rule of faith. In fact, the Bible repeatedly directs us to hold fast to "traditions" and teachings passed on orally by the Apostles. Thus, "sola scriptura" is not only un-Biblical but anti-Biblical.>>>levesque

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

In answer to that statement, Jesus “is” the “last” word that fulfills all that was ever written about His coming, and what His coming meant to mankind.

The Old Testament is our reading assignment, the New Testament is our workbook, and the Holy Spirit is our teacher.

The challenge for Protestants who cling to this false teaching is to answer the question: Where does the Bible teach sola scriptura?>>>levesque

I don’t label people any more, I see what is in their hearts, and if they profess to know God, then it will show by their actions or in word.

Some may argue the physical elements of humanity, but I argue the spiritual elements of God.
Whatever is physical will stay, and whatever is spiritual, will live on past the death of the physical.
So, the bible, the church building, organizations will all pass away, but the Spirit of Jesus in us, lives on to eternity.
I am saved,without a doubt, for the captain of my soul is Jesus, and He promised me that while I was still on this earth that He would never leave me nor forsake me, but would be with me to the bitter end.
I have that confidence; therefore I trust and rely on Him who is able to save me.

I could give you scriptures to back that up, but since the bible holds no credence with you, then I would just be making a noise.
I hold the bible as the supreme authority over all written words of mankind, and Hold Jesus as the God of the scriptures.
The whole story is in there, look no further but ask and it shall be revealed unto you.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[talloola]

We are to love, know and serve God in this world so we can be with him in the next world.

The thought and idea that there is a next world does not belong in "my" world, so, telling me the above
does nothing for me, but maybe "only for you"

If anyone goes to heaven outside the church, it will because of the blood of Jesus, whether they realize it or not.

Those thoughts are only yours, not mine, as I don't believe in a "heaven".


But Love would be strong indicator of their searching for the true God

There is "much" love in my life, but it pretains to my family and others close to me, not god.

 

[talloola]

What you wrote, on the surface, seems fine and dandy. However, I submit to you that non-theists are equally intolerant in their views on the Christian faith. However, where we disgaree on the soucre of our private awareness, yet still we can agree that people CAN be happy determining their state of existence.

Thank you for saying that

The difference is we acknowledge the Creator even in those who do not recognize His presence in their lives

That is OK, as those thoughts are only in the person who believes that, and the other person, (like myself),
would never be aware of those thoughts, but would be happy with their own.

 

[sanctus]

If the bible has no credence, then God is not real.



I could give you scriptures to back that up, but since the bible holds no credence with you, then I would just be making a noise.
I hold the bible as the supreme authority over all written words of mankind, and Hold Jesus as the God of the scriptures.
The whole story is in there, look no further but ask and it shall be revealed unto you.

Peace>>>AJ

I daresay Aj that you missed m_levesque's point entirely. The post did not for one second suggest the Bible held no authority for him or the Church. What it did state, quite clearly I thought, was the fact that the Bible is not the final say in doctrine or faith, but rather the Church is. The Church existed before the bible, and it is through the Church that the Bible is to be interpreted. In short, the Bible is the book of the Church. It is equal to, but does not surpass, the Traditions of the Church.

 

[sanctus]

The Old Testament is our reading assignment, the New Testament is our workbook, and the Holy Spirit is our teacher.


Peace>>>AJ

Not quite correct my friend. The Holy Spirit is our guide, the Church the instrument of teaching. Private interpretations of Scriptures is not only foolish, it can be very dangerous, both to the individual and to society as a whole. How often have we witnessed the misuse of Scriptural passages to justify all sorts of evil in the world.

 

[sanctus]

, will live on past the death of the physical.
So, the bible, the church building, organizations will all pass away, but the Spirit of Jesus in us, lives on to eternity.Peace>>>AJ

The Church will never end, for that is the promise Jesus made, that it would withstand even the fires of Hell. That too is in the Bible. It is the Church Christ promised to protect as guide for the Body of Christ, not the Bible. The Bible is obviously God's written word to us, but He is not contained within its pages. His Spirit is larger than the Scriptures and His spirit guides the Church who alone is the proper judge of biblical exegesis.

 

[sanctus]

In the bible I find the church. The church is the body of Christ. Who then is the body of Christ? All those who are in Christ are “the Church”.

Peace>>>AJ

Again, with gentle correction only intended, you are incorrect. The Church is an entity devised and created by God. Its membership are those who are in fellowship and communion with the Pope. This is the Body of Christ. Outside the Church Jesus lives, certainly, and many well-meaning people are in impaired levesl of fellowship with Jesus, but the fullness of the faith, the ONLY Church is the Catholic Church.All those in communion with the Church are the Body of Christ. That is also Scriptural, my friend.

Like many protestants, you would re-invent the wheel. You would read the Scriptures and devise your own interpretations of them. But I ask you, how can protestant thinking follow logic when there are so many variations of belief? Does this suggest to you a harmonious God who would let His Holy Spirit guide millions of people to totally differing theologies?

 

[look3467]

I daresay Aj that you missed m_levesque's point entirely. The post did not for one second suggest the Bible held no authority for him or the Church. What it did state, quite clearly I thought, was the fact that the Bible is not the final say in doctrine or faith, but rather the Church is. The Church existed before the bible, and it is through the Church that the Bible is to be interpreted. In short, the Bible is the book of the Church. It is equal to, but does not surpass, the Traditions of the Church.

I understood Sanctrus what He was saying. In other words, apart from the Church, the bible has no credibility.
But that’s ok. Because the belief system of the Catholic Church holds its members to its rules and regulations, thereby, becoming the sole authority on the interpretation of the scriptures.
I fully understand that, for like wise the other religious beliefs have their own set of beliefs which differ: and divide.

But, I am above all that in that I am the church in this respect, that The Church is the body of Jesus Christ, and I am part of His body.

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones

. (The church is a spiritual church not a physical one)

And we know that: 1

Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

To understand:

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

This I know:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

So, the spiritual body of Christ is the church in the flesh, or in other words, Jesus residing in us.

We are His temple:

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

And if we are not members of His body we are:

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

So, then, the new Jerusalem is the spiritual church not made with human hands but a spiritual church.

So then, what is the bible that tells us all these things: The bible is the letter to us from God the Father as to how He created the world and us, how sin entered, the fall of man, restitution made and finally, the salvation of all mankind.

That, He wanted us to know, but because we are in a flawed condition, His promised Messiah came at a time appointed and fulfilled all that the Father required of mankind, and liberated us from it, bridging the gap between heaven and hell.

Now, if the Catholic church is your choice, then be all you can be in it, and if it be not, then be all you can be as well.
But, I can say, that if any exercise not the love of God, then that persons religion is false.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

Again, with gentle correction only intended, you are incorrect. The Church is an entity devised and created by God. Its membership are those who are in fellowship and communion with the Pope. This is the Body of Christ. Outside the Church Jesus lives, certainly, and many well-meaning people are in impaired levesl of fellowship with Jesus, but the fullness of the faith, the ONLY Church is the Catholic Church.All those in communion with the Church are the Body of Christ. That is also Scriptural, my friend.

Like many protestants, you would re-invent the wheel. You would read the Scriptures and devise your own interpretations of them. But I ask you, how can protestant thinking follow logic when there are so many variations of belief? Does this suggest to you a harmonious God who would let His Holy Spirit guide millions of people to totally differing theologies?

I love you brother Sanctus, your sincerity is admirable and your heart is in the right place.
But my fellowship is with Christ who is seated at the right hand of the Father in whose body I am.
He alone bridged the gap between heaven and hell for me, and He is my high Priest of God and not of man.
I go directly to God the Father by Jesus as my spirit is alive with His.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

The hour is now, when we worship the Father in Spirit and in truth.

Peace, brother, AJ

 

[m_levesque]

I understood Sanctrus what He was saying. In other words, apart from the Church, the bible has no credibility.
But that’s ok. Because the belief system of the Catholic Church holds its members to its rules and regulations, thereby, becoming the sole authority on the interpretation of the scriptures.
I

The WORD of God is revealed to us in a Trinitarian way;

• 1. Sacred Scripture
• 2. Sacred Tradition
• 3. Magisterium (church teaching/doctrine) ("Doctrine" is the same as "Teaching")

You got the bible because the Catholic Church put it together for you. You got the word Trinity from the Catholic Church. You believe in the Trinity yet that word does not appear in the bible. I thought you only go by the bible; "Sola Scriptura" ... what happened to that? The word Trinity is not in the bible. Then why do you believe in it? This is a rhetorical question of course because I know why you believe in the Trinity. Because it is in the bible! Church teachings or doctrine (same thing) will never contradict the bible! The Trinity is in the bible but the word is not. So you have to "look for it" in other ways. Just as the church interprets the bible through God's eyes, she looks at the bible "on the whole." She doesn't only look at one verse at a time. The church looks at the verses in full context. It will appear as though some verses contradict Church teachings but not when you look at the "whole bible" or "whole book" or "whole chapter."
__________________

 

[m_levesque]

Now, if the Catholic church is your choice, then be all you can be in it, and if it be not, then be all you can be as well.
But, I can say, that if any exercise not the love of God, then that persons religion is false.

Peace>>>AJ

The Catholic Church is not sanctu choice, it is GOD'S,and if you willingly refuse to submit to it, you deny Jesus. Period.No matter how much one argues about bible interpretation, "Sola Scriptura" is NOT in the bible.

I challenge any Non-Catholic to look for "Sola Scriptura" in the bible. I know those words won't be there. But tell me, where in the bible does it talk about "Bible Alone?"

Once you do not find "Bible Alone" in the bible then all the other arguements that a Protestant or Non-Catholic person has just falls or crumbles right in your hand and no longer stands on its own. It just doesn't work. No matter what arguement you have about a subject, it is wrong because no where in the bible does it say that you can interpret the bible by yourself. You need the Church to teach you. You need the Church to interpret the Word for you.

Catholic Christians can discern when we read the bible! Why? Because we have the Church behind us. We have the Catechism of the Catholic Church to guide us!

 

[m_levesque]

I
I could give you scriptures to back that up, but since the bible holds no credence with you, then I would just be making a noise.
I hold the bible as the supreme authority over all written words of mankind, and Hold Jesus as the God of the scriptures.
The whole story is in there, look no further but ask and it shall be revealed unto you.

Peace>>>AJ

Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - the apostles are given Christ's authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).

Luke 9:1; 10:19 - Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions).

Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, "he who hears you, hears Me." When we hear the bishops' teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself.

Luke 22:29 - the Father gives the kingdom to the Son, and the Son gives the kingdom to the apostles. The gift is transferred from the Father to the Son to the apostles.

Num 16:28 - the Father's authority is transferred to Moses. Moses does not speak on his own. This is a real transfer of authority.

John 5:30 - similarly, Jesus as man does nothing of His own authority, but He acts under the authority of the Father.

John 7:16-17 - Jesus as man states that His authority is not His own, but from God. He will transfer this authority to other men.

John 8:28 - Jesus says He does nothing on His own authority. Similarly, the apostles will do nothing on their own authority. Their authority comes from God.

John 12:49 - The father's authority is transferred to the Son. The Son does not speak on his own. This is a transfer of divine authority.

John 13:20 - Jesus says, "he who receives anyone who I send, receives Me." He who receives the apostles, receives Christ Himself. He who rejects the apostles and their successors, rejects Christ.

John 14:10 - Jesus says the Word He speaks is not His own authority, but from the Father. The gift is from the Father to Jesus to the apostles.

John 16:14-15 - what the Father has, the Son has, and the Son gives it to the apostles. The authority is not lessened or mitigated.

John 17:18; 20:21 - as the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the apostles. The apostles have divinely appointed authority.

Acts 20:28 - the apostles are shepherds and guardians appointed by the Holy Spirit / 1 Peter 2:25 - Jesus is the Shepherd and Guardian. The apostles, by the power of the Spirit, share Christ's ministry and authority.

Jer. 23:1-8; Ezek. 34:1-10 - the shepherds must shepherd the sheep, or they will be held accountable by God.

Eph. 2:20 - the Christian faith is built upon the foundation of the apostles. The word "foundation" proves that it does not die with apostles, but carries on through succession.

Eph. 2:20; Rev. 21:9,14 - the words "household," "Bride of the Lamb," the "new Jerusalem" are all metaphors for the Church whose foundation is the apostles. __________________

 

[look3467]

m_levesque;763014]The Catholic Church is not sanctu choice, it is GOD'S,and if you willingly refuse to submit to it, you deny Jesus. Period.No matter how much one argues about bible interpretation, "Sola Scriptura" is NOT in the bible.

By your words can you see where this is a divisive situation? Dividing the body of Christ?


How can you say I deny Jesus when I confess that Jesus is my High Priest, Lord and Savior, Redeemer, comforter and friend?

I challenge any Non-Catholic to look for "Sola Scriptura" in the bible. I know those words won't be there. But tell me, where in the bible does it talk about "Bible Alone?">>>levesque

The only challenge there is, is with you not the scripture. For the scripture clearly states who Jesus is and what we are in Him.

Once you do not find "Bible Alone" in the bible then all the other arguements that a Protestant or Non-Catholic person has just falls or crumbles right in your hand and no longer stands on its own. It just doesn't work. No matter what arguement you have about a subject, it is wrong because no where in the bible does it say that you can interpret the bible by yourself. You need the Church to teach you. You need the Church to interpret the Word for you.>>>levesque

The Holy Spirit is our instructor: read:

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

You need not that any men teach you. The Holy Spirit will.

Catholic Christians can discern when we read the bible! Why? Because we have the Church behind us. We have the Catechism of the Catholic Church to guide us!>>>levesque

Yes, you can let the Catholic church discern for you, but then that wouldn’t be the Holy Spirit. Would it?

Read:

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

A hospital is for those who are weak and ill, but not for the strong and healthy.

Question is: Are we strong in our own faith in God to let God deal directly with us, or are we still dependent on the human element?

I am not wanting anybody to leave their religion, just to enlighten them on a different point of view outside their religion so as to challenge them to think, and compare and let the Holy Spirit be their guide.

For we are instructed to grow up, unto maturity of the spirit, and that is the point of my presentation to you and to all.



Peace>>>AJ






Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

The WORD of God is revealed to us in a Trinitarian way;

• 1. Sacred Scripture
• 2. Sacred Tradition
• 3. Magisterium (church teaching/doctrine) ("Doctrine" is the same as "Teaching")

You got the bible because the Catholic Church put it together for you. You got the word Trinity from the Catholic Church. You believe in the Trinity yet that word does not appear in the bible. I thought you only go by the bible; "Sola Scriptura" ... what happened to that? The word Trinity is not in the bible. Then why do you believe in it? This is a rhetorical question of course because I know why you believe in the Trinity. Because it is in the bible! Church teachings or doctrine (same thing) will never contradict the bible! The Trinity is in the bible but the word is not. So you have to "look for it" in other ways. Just as the church interprets the bible through God's eyes, she looks at the bible "on the whole." She doesn't only look at one verse at a time. The church looks at the verses in full context. It will appear as though some verses contradict Church teachings but not when you look at the "whole bible" or "whole book" or "whole chapter."
__________________

What I see is God the Father, (Creator of the physical heaven and earth) God the Son, (creator of the spiritual heaven in earth), and the God the Holy Spirit who dwells in tabernacles of clay. (Flesh)

Each distinct operation: but all one God.

And I have no argument with you as to your choice to believe in the Catholic Church, but you do have an argument with my not placing my faith in the Catholic Church, or in complete reliance on the bible.

You want to say that I am denying God because I don’t adhere to Catholic doctrines.

That is dividing the body of Christ, of which Christ understood. For: in the breaking of bread, representing the breaking of the body of Jesus to cover all 12 Apostles.

12 of course is an earth number, meaning that the whole earth is covered by the Blood of Christ, as represented by the wine.

We both believe in the same God, but we both honor Him differently. We are both covered by His blood!
That makes us brothers in Christ first, then whatever way you choose to honor Him, that’s totally up to you.

But that makes neither of us any better than the other for we are both equal in the eyes of God.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[m_levesque]

12 of course is an earth number, meaning that the whole earth is covered by the Blood of Christ, as represented by the wine.

We both believe in the same God, but we both honor Him differently. We are both covered by His blood!
That makes us brothers in Christ first, then whatever way you choose to honor Him, that’s totally up to you.

But that makes neither of us any better than the other for we are both equal in the eyes of God.

Peace>>>AJ

I wish sanctus was online, or is he?, to rebut some of your outlandish claims. That is not at all what the Bible teaches on the Eucharist or the Church. You have made up your own doctrines, and that is the biggest problem with sola scriptura theoogy.

 

[m_levesque]

By your words can you see where this is a divisive situation? Dividing the body of Christ?


How can you say I deny Jesus when I confess that Jesus is my High Priest, Lord and Savior, Redeemer, comforter and friend?






Peace>>>AJ

You deny Jesus because you deny His Church and its apostolic mission to guide the faithful. You cannot be in the Body of Christ if you are outside of His Church..why don't you get that? The Church isn't what you define it, but what Jesus did.

 

[look3467]

You deny Jesus because you deny His Church and its apostolic mission to guide the faithful. You cannot be in the Body of Christ if you are outside of His Church..why don't you get that? The Church isn't what you define it, but what Jesus did.

You have nothing to fear about anything I say levesque. Oh by the way, wht is your name? I'm AJ.

Anyways, I understand what you are saying because I understand your point of view. And as long as your content with that, I have no problem with it.

But, I would like to disscuss things that are in the bible that reflect the works of God on our behalf.
If you are able to take bible in hand, and converse with me strickly on what the verses say, then we could have a nice disscussion.

But if we are going to set limits, then there can only be two sides. Yours or mine.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[csanopal]

You deny Jesus because you deny His Church and its apostolic mission to guide the faithful. You cannot be in the Body of Christ if you are outside of His Church..why don't you get that? The Church isn't what you define it, but what Jesus did.

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
DECLARATION
"DOMINUS IESUS"
ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY
OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH​

17. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery, are not Churches in the proper sense [emphasis added]; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church. Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”. In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”. “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.

The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience of June 16, 2000, granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, with sure knowledge and by his apostolic authority, ratified and confirmed this Declaration, adopted in Plenary Session and ordered its publication.

Rome, from the Offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, August 6, 2000, the Feast of the Transfiguration of the Lord.


Joseph Card. Ratzinger