How can we get rid of our sinfulness?

[sanctus]

Wrong, sorry. I choose to look at evidence. There is nothing to support the existence of gods, demons, leprachauns, and faeries except hearsay. Your god is man, man is god so one cannot be greater than the other.
One man's truth is another's falsehood.
Um, I can confess a lot of things that mean nothing.

Do you not see the arrogance of your statements? In other words, if the eternal "ME" is not convinced, it must not be true. In other words, there is such a sense, in many people's hearts, that all things must somehow be put on a table and examined prior to being accepted. It is as if to say that "I" am the only judge of what is and is not real. Yet, so many today, and before us, have accepted God and the evidence of His existence is in the hearts and works of these people.

 

[jimmoyer]

Originally Posted by L Gilbert
Wrong, sorry. I choose to look at evidence. There is nothing to support the existence of gods, demons, leprachauns, and faeries except hearsay. Your god is man, man is god so one cannot be greater than the other.
One man's truth is another's falsehood.
Um, I can confess a lot of things that mean nothing.


Do you not see the arrogance of your statements? In other words, if the eternal "ME" is not convinced, it must not be true. In other words, there is such a sense, in many people's hearts, that all things must somehow be put on a table and examined prior to being accepted. It is as if to say that "I" am the only judge of what is and is not real. Yet, so many today, and before us, have accepted God and the evidence of His existence is in the hearts and works of these people.
-------------------------------------------------Sanctus-------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting posts.

I like Sanctus's observation about the ME. The ME that assumes to be final arbiter and judge.
This great observation leads us to consider the value of humility before this huge universe.

 

[BitWhys]

Well, we must differ here, I am afraid. I consider the "official"Anglican church to be apostate, having lost its validity of the Catholic faith with the introduction of the heretical BAS and female clergy. My respect is geared towards the Anglo-Catholic BCP only parishes or the Churches of the continuing Anglican movement.

That's fine with me if you don't mind my making you aware that being considered apostate by the Holy See is among the least of my concerns. We share our building with the RCC. I'm more worried about parking.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Interesting little essay here http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/funk54.html that seems to have some bearing on this discussion, and a few others around the boards. Scroll about halfway down, to the paragraph that begins "Due to poor planning on my part..."

 

[Curiosity]

LOL Daz

Nice find - that article - the guy takes no prisoners.

I'll appreciate religious belief - especially in the devout others - and for me I revere it as I would a dear grandmother who had seen much of living and disappointments and survived all - but I would not take the
darling elder's advice in this modern world.

It is so very out of touch.

 

[mapleleafgirl]

LOL Daz

Nice find - that article - the guy takes no prisoners.

I'll appreciate religious belief - especially in the devout others - and for me I revere it as I would a dear grandmother who had seen much of living and disappointments and survived all - but I would not take the
darling elder's advice in this modern world.

It is so very out of touch.

whats so out of touch? the catholic church? the protestants? or both? why are they out of touch? do they have to be like the world to represent god?

 

[sanctus]

Interesting little essay here http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/funk54.html that seems to have some bearing on this discussion, and a few others around the boards. Scroll about halfway down, to the paragraph that begins "Due to poor planning on my part..."

A very interesting article indeed. Thanks for indicating it for us. I am most impressed with the mans obvious distaste for religion in general, especially considering it he taught the subject.

 

[sanctus]

LOL Daz

Nice find - that article - the guy takes no prisoners.

I'll appreciate religious belief - especially in the devout others - and for me I revere it as I would a dear grandmother who had seen much of living and disappointments and survived all - but I would not take the
darling elder's advice in this modern world.

It is so very out of touch.

But out of touch in what context? There is a school of belief, especially amongst
unbelievers, that seems to expect the Church to mirror society.

What they do not understand is that the Church is never out of touch with the mores and ways of mankind. It knows, through God, those secret and dark areas where sin resides. Though the Church may not reflect modern culture, it does reflect modern mankind.

 

[sanctus]

That's fine with me if you don't mind my making you aware that being considered apostate by the Holy See is among the least of my concerns. We share our building with the RCC. I'm more worried about parking.

I am very well aware of that fact I have some very good friends in the Anglican Catholic Church. have you heard of this Church? It is part of the Anglican faith that refused to change with the new age ideologies permeating the Cantebury Communion. I deeply admire their stance for true Catholicity.

 

[sanctus]

Interesting posts.

I like Sanctus's observation about the ME. The ME that assumes to be final arbiter and judge.
This great observation leads us to consider the value of humility before this huge universe.

Thank you. The cult of "ME" has permeated our society like a sick cancer that spreads ever slowly towards the eventual death of the soul. Since the 1970's this cult has grown. Responsibility, morality, duty and honour have fled the scene, to be replaced with ME, ME, ME. What is important, saddly, is not what is right or good, but what makes ME "happy". Heaven forbid that we are not constantly catering to our own self devotion and desires!

 

[Niflmir]

But out of touch in what context? There is a school of belief, especially amongst
unbelievers, that seems to expect the Church to mirror society.

What they do not understand is that the Church is never out of touch with the mores and ways of mankind. It knows, through God, those secret and dark areas where sin resides. Though the Church may not reflect modern culture, it does reflect modern mankind.

I personally find it out of touch with technology. Generally, if and when I say something like: "The Church is out of touch." I mean something like that. Its like the orthodox Jews and their refusal to eat pork, eating pork isn't a sin, people used to die because of Trichinosis not because God was angry at them. Similarly, in spite of the story of Soddam and Gomorrah (Which teaches it is better to offer your virgin daughter to be raped than to allow a male guest of your house to go out and have gay sex), I believe that the things in the bible that forbid homosexuality are due to biases of the authors, who seem to find distaste in all things which might bring meaning into people's lives outside of religion.

In my worldview, the bible no longer provides us with a good moral compass to guide our decisions in the constantly changing global environment. Instead of using embrionic stem cells to save lives, religion teaches us it is wrong to "play god" and so we must dump the embryo into the garbage. The Catholic church and its crusade against sexual freedom has done untold harm in Africa by teaching that condom usage is forbidden, a doctrine which is currently being reevaluated by the new pope.

I study general relativity. I hear people deny the big bang frequently. What they don't know is that, the same theory that tells us the big bang happened also allows our planes to fly on autopilot. Something tells me their last flight didn't crash... Predictive power of the bible = 0.

I don't expect the Church to mirror society, but I generally don't feel the anachronistic stories of the bible have much bearing on my life.

 

[L Gilbert]

just because you cant see something dosent mean its not true. you cant see air and you believe in it. youve never seen plouto and you believe it there, dont you?

I haven't seen leprachauns and faeries but I'd bet you large sums that there are none outside of imaginations and drawings and the like. Actually, I have seen Pluto, also Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Venus, et al (a few of them with the naked eye, too). Photography is a neat passtime especially when combined with science. Ever been to a radio observatory? You wouldn't believe the vastness of the universe until you've seen computer generated images of radio (and other) waves of exploded and existing suns, nebulae, planets, etc. I've even been inside a space capsule.
Um, I know for a fact that air exists because I breathe it every day for the oxygen in it. I cannot see electricity either, but I'm not going to stick my finger in a light socket when the switch is on.

 

[L Gilbert]

After a few glasses of good wine, or my favourite, sherry, I'm sure between the two of us we could fix all the world's issues

lol
I have no doubt about that.

 

[Niflmir]

I haven't seen leprachauns and faeries but I'd bet you large sums that there are none outside of imaginations and drawings and the like. Actually, I have seen Pluto, also Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Venus, et al (a few of them with the naked eye, too). Photography is a neat passtime especially when combined with science. Ever been to a radio observatory? You wouldn't believe the vastness of the universe until you've seen computer generated images of radio (and other) waves of exploded and existing suns, nebulae, planets, etc. I've even been inside a space capsule.
Um, I know for a fact that air exists because I breathe it every day for the oxygen in it. I cannot see electricity either, but I'm not going to stick my finger in a light socket when the switch is on.

To elaborate further, I would agree with MapleLeafGirl, only in Semantics. I will never see an electron, but I know it exists. However, I will affirm strongly that: "If you can not ever measure something, that thing does not exist." Have you met my pink, invisible unicorn?

 

[sanctus]

To elaborate further, I would agree with MapleLeafGirl, only in Semantics. I will never see an electron, but I know it exists. However, I will affirm strongly that: "If you can not ever measure something, that thing does not exist." Have you met my pink, invisible unicorn?

Really...can you measure a thought? Love? Yet these exist, do they not?

 

[sanctus]

lol
I have no doubt about that.

Indeed, and after fixing the world and its issues, let's work on the universe..those black holes need to go

 

[sanctus]

I personally find it out of touch with technology. Generally, if and when I say something like: "The Church is out of touch." I mean something like that. .

The Church is not a science, nor is it a technological society. It is in touch with God, and the human soul, which is its purpose.

 

[sanctus]

In my worldview, the bible no longer provides us with a good moral compass to guide our decisions in the constantly changing global environment. Instead of using embrionic stem cells to save lives, religion teaches us it is wrong to "play god" and so we must dump the embryo into the garbage. The Catholic church and its crusade against sexual freedom has done untold harm in Africa by teaching that condom usage is forbidden, a doctrine which is currently being reevaluated by the new pope.
life.

The Bible is a book of faith, of man's relationship with God. It does not seek to be a science textbook.

Stem cells, from dead babies...is that the best science can offer us these days? We must murder babies in order to provide the material..surely we can think of better ways to do these things!

Condom usage is being re-evaluated only within the bonds of married couples, not society in general.

 

[sanctus]

I don't expect the Church to mirror society, but I generally don't feel the anachronistic stories of the bible have much bearing on my life.

What about the stories in the Bible do you feel do not have a bearing on life? The stories reflect all the many ways humans inter-relate with one another-or have we changed in our core so much that we no longer feel love, devotion, anger, passion..etc.,etc.?

 

[Niflmir]

Really...can you measure a thought? Love? Yet these exist, do they not?

Sure these can be measured. When you are in a relationship of supposed love, you expect certain loving actions and attitude. It differs by relationship, but certainly if someone is constantly abusing me, or cheating on me, when I make a call to:

measure(love)

It would certainly return with something like:

"Love found missing."

You are thinking in conventional senses of measurement there. There are also ways of measuring pain in other people. Although I am no expert in psychology, I know that they have ways of measuring all sorts of emotions.