House Votes 403 to 3 to Reject Iraq Pullout

Ocean Breeze

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Jun 5, 2005
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Other methods of containment should? could? of been used.

agree. and it could have been done collectively with world support if handled properly. For humanitarian reasons the case could have easily been made. This is the opportunity that bush lost .......following the world support/sympathy/empathy with the US. We were all together as never before. (at least that I recall). and this was "capital" that could have been used ever so much more wisely ........had it been a different ,smarter , person in office.

No one is supporting SH ........but the issue is HOW all this was mishandled from the onset. Look at the results and consequences........ and who will pay for it??? THe americans......as they voted this bozo in twice. After he has gone .........people will still remember Iraq and who voted for the leader who invaded it.
 

Ocean Breeze

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If war is terrorism then Canada is complicit in Afghanistan, and Serbia and Gulf War I and the Korean War etc....

technically , that would be correct. :wink:
 

I think not

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Apr 12, 2005
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Ocean Breeze said:
Other methods of containment should? could? of been used.

agree. and it could have been done collectively with world support if handled properly. For humanitarian reasons the case could have easily been made. This is the opportunity that bush lost .......following the world support/sympathy/empathy with the US. We were all together as never before. (at least that I recall). and this was "capital" that could have been used ever so much more wisely ........had it been a different ,smarter , person in office.

No one is supporting SH ........but the issue is HOW all this was mishandled from the onset. Look at the results and consequences........ and who will pay for it??? THe americans......as they voted this bozo in twice. After he has gone .........people will still remember Iraq and who voted for the leader who invaded it.

I agree with everything you said with the exception of the alleged "sympathy" that was squandered by Bush post 9/11. The "sympathy" was but a blip, anti-Americanism is chronic.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Jun 5, 2005
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I think not said:
Ocean Breeze said:
Other methods of containment should? could? of been used.

agree. and it could have been done collectively with world support if handled properly. For humanitarian reasons the case could have easily been made. This is the opportunity that bush lost .......following the world support/sympathy/empathy with the US. We were all together as never before. (at least that I recall). and this was "capital" that could have been used ever so much more wisely ........had it been a different ,smarter , person in office.

No one is supporting SH ........but the issue is HOW all this was mishandled from the onset. Look at the results and consequences........ and who will pay for it??? THe americans......as they voted this bozo in twice. After he has gone .........people will still remember Iraq and who voted for the leader who invaded it.

I agree with everything you said with the exception of the alleged "sympathy" that was squandered by Bush post 9/11. The "sympathy" was but a blip, anti-Americanism is chronic.

i hear ya. But here again.........an opportunity to change that dynamic was there. The only reason the sympathy, support turned out to be a blip......is because bush started beating the drums for invading Iraq before the terrorist issue was properly addressed . The Iraq invasion just turned everything sour. .....and fostered MORE terrorism. This Iraq invasion is a lot more than appears on the surface and the repercussions are just starting to play out. Plus no one knows the FACTS yet.(as in the.REAL reason bush was so antsy to invade, and why he won't even discuss possible time frames for departure from Iraq.- ).....and might not for a long time.
 

I think not

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Ocean Breeze said:
i hear ya. But here again.........an opportunity to change that dynamic was there. The only reason the sympathy, support turned out to be a blip......is because bush started beating the drums for invading Iraq before the terrorist issue was properly addressed . The Iraq invasion just turned everything sour. .....and fostered MORE terrorism. This Iraq invasion is a lot more than appears on the surface and the repercussions are just starting to play out. Plus no one knows the FACTS yet.......and might not for a long time.

When the US leaves Iraq, and we will, long after, the pieces will fall into place. For now, all we hear is power plays going back and forth. I don't believe anyone, left or right, they all lie to promote their own garbage.

I won't discuss the blip anymore, too long of a convo :wink:
 

Nascar_James

Council Member
Jun 6, 2005
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#juan said:
Bull! There is nothing intelligent about the bombing and destruction of Iraq.

Here are the facts, Juan ...

(I've cut out an exerpt from the link below ...)

WMD World Intelligence - Iraq

Associated Press:

Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), R-Ariz., said Democrats have a right to criticize the war but that it was disingenuous to claim that Bush lied about intelligence to justify it.

"Every intelligence agency in the world, including the Russians, the French ... all reached the same conclusion," McCain said on CBS' "Face the Nation."
 

Ocean Breeze

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Jun 5, 2005
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ITN:
I don't believe anyone, left or right, they all lie to promote their own garbage.


neither do I. !!! :) and indeed, both wings have their own agenda to promote. (aka garbage)
 

Reverend Blair

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Apr 3, 2004
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RE: House Votes 403 to 3

You'll leave Iraq the same way you left Vietnam, ITN. I've seen this movie before before. The soundtack for the original was better, and the main characters were better actors, but it's got the same plot and the ending will be the same.
 

Ocean Breeze

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with all this mess about Iraq.....what is the status of Afganistan?? How long will the US stay there???

lest we forget the thriving fields of poppies in Afganistan.....

It continues to boggle that they would invade a nation by choice .......when they had a war going (active battle in Afganistan ) and the "war" on terrorism.

So what is the status on all these three wars..?? ( yes, some will say that they are all part and parcel of one war......but that is just too glib )
 

Dexter Sinister

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Oct 1, 2004
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Some of you have only the shallowest, most rudimentary understanding of what's going on in Iraq and you've uncritically bought the U.S. government's official line. I doubt you'll believe or even understand a word of what follows, but I'll try to lay it out for you anyway.

Iraq was the target of the new American right from the beginning, mostly because it was the easiest one. It's not about Sodamn Insane and WMD and never was, it's not about Iraq at all, neither is it about terrorism, oil (except peripherally), 9/11, al Qaida, or any of the other pap you've been fed. About 3000 people died in the attacks of 9/11. In an average month, that's about the toll of people killed on U.S. highways. And it happened only once, four years ago, while the highway death toll continues, month after month after month, and nobody seems particularly excited about it. 9/11 is peanuts. The world did not suddenly change on 9/11 just because a few terrorists chose the luckiest generation in history as a target. That's been happening to other people all over the world for thousands of years, and in recent memory (i.e. the last 100 years or so) because of the actions of the U.S. government in places like Nicaragua, Chile, Panama, Cuba, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, American Samoa... You can look it up. In fact look them all up, you might learn something useful. 9/11 was just the first time anyone seriously targetted U.S. citizens at home. And that's not what it's about either.

It's about U.S. imperialism, global hegemony, and who's going to run the world. The U.S. thinks it can do it indefinitely. It's wrong. All empires fall, yours will not be exempt. You'd do well to study a little history of a few places other than the United States and get a feel for the broader sweep of things.

For instance, the big event around the end of the 19th century was the Boer War, when Britain, by far the world's greatest power at the time, fabricated a little war against the Afrikaaner republics in southern Africa. It wasn't because the Afrikaaners were particularly nasty (though they were, especially toward black people and foreigners) but because they had gold the imperial power wanted. That war turned out to be much longer and harder than expected, and while Britain eventually won it by all the conventional measures, it was the beginning of a half century of decline that ultimately ended Britain's global superpower status.

That'll happen to the United States eventually too. Maybe not this time in Iraq, and in fact probably not, because the United States is far more powerful relative to the other powers in the world than Britain was in 1899. But it *will* happen, and history will judge this little adventure in Iraq in about the same terms it now judges the Boer War. And sooner or later one of these little adventures will mark the beginning of the end of American hegemony.

Global terrorism, personified by Osama bin Laden, and the American neocon fantasy of running the world forever, personified by George W. Bush, are what the Marxists (Marx wasn't wrong about everything) used to call "objective allies." They feed off each other, they couldn't exist without each other, they justify each other's existence, they thrive on the confrontation, and they're all full of shit.

I'm not concerned about the United States losing the war in Iraq, that's a foregone conclusion, as was the war in Vietnam. You can't beat guerrillas on their home turf. I worry that the United States won't lose the war in Iraq soon enough. Both sides' goals are ludicrous. The idea that Islamic fundamentalists can sweep into power across the Middle East, Talibanize it, and fight a successful holy war (jihad) against the West is as dumb as the notion that the United States can permanently be the global vigilante. The danger (credit to Gwynne Dyer for this one) is not that marginal extremists will dominate the future, it's that they'll do a lot of damage to everybody's future before they go down.

And for those who want more information and more detailed analyses, see the following by Gwynne Dyer from publisher McClelland and Stewart Ltd.:

Ignorant Armies, 2003, ISBN 0-7710-2977-2

Future: Tense, 2004, ISBN 0-7710-2978-0
 

Ocean Breeze

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Jun 5, 2005
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Dexter Sinister said:
Some of you have only the shallowest, most rudimentary understanding of what's going on in Iraq and you've uncritically bought the U.S. government's official line. I doubt you'll believe or even understand a word of what follows, but I'll try to lay it out for you anyway.

Iraq was the target of the new American right from the beginning, mostly because it was the easiest one. It's not about Sodamn Insane and WMD and never was, it's not about Iraq at all, neither is it about terrorism, oil (except peripherally), 9/11, al Qaida, or any of the other pap you've been fed. About 3000 people died in the attacks of 9/11. In an average month, that's about the toll of people killed on U.S. highways. And it happened only once, four years ago, while the highway death toll continues, month after month after month, and nobody seems particularly excited about it. 9/11 is peanuts. The world did not suddenly change on 9/11 just because a few terrorists chose the luckiest generation in history as a target. That's been happening to other people all over the world for thousands of years, and in recent memory (i.e. the last 100 years or so) because of the actions of the U.S. government in places like Nicaragua, Chile, Panama, Cuba, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, American Samoa... You can look it up. In fact look them all up, you might learn something useful. 9/11 was just the first time anyone seriously targetted U.S. citizens at home. And that's not what it's about either.

It's about U.S. imperialism, global hegemony, and who's going to run the world. The U.S. thinks it can do it indefinitely. It's wrong. All empires fall, yours will not be exempt. You'd do well to study a little history of a few places other than the United States and get a feel for the broader sweep of things.

For instance, the big event around the end of the 19th century was the Boer War, when Britain, by far the world's greatest power at the time, fabricated a little war against the Afrikaaner republics in southern Africa. It wasn't because the Afrikaaners were particularly nasty (though they were, especially toward black people and foreigners) but because they had gold the imperial power wanted. That war turned out to be much longer and harder than expected, and while Britain eventually won it by all the conventional measures, it was the beginning of a half century of decline that ultimately ended Britain's global superpower status.

That'll happen to the United States eventually too. Maybe not this time in Iraq, and in fact probably not, because the United States is far more powerful relative to the other powers in the world than Britain was in 1899. But it *will* happen, and history will judge this little adventure in Iraq in about the same terms it now judges the Boer War. And sooner or later one of these little adventures will mark the beginning of the end of American hegemony.

Global terrorism, personified by Osama bin Laden, and the American neocon fantasy of running the world forever, personified by George W. Bush, are what the Marxists (Marx wasn't wrong about everything) used to call "objective allies." They feed off each other, they couldn't exist without each other, they justify each other's existence, they thrive on the confrontation, and they're all full of shit.

I'm not concerned about the United States losing the war in Iraq, that's a foregone conclusion, as was the war in Vietnam. You can't beat guerrillas on their home turf. I worry that the United States won't lose the war in Iraq soon enough. Both sides' goals are ludicrous. The idea that Islamic fundamentalists can sweep into power across the Middle East, Talibanize it, and fight a successful holy war (jihad) against the West is as dumb as the notion that the United States can permanently be the global vigilante. The danger (credit to Gwynne Dyer for this one) is not that marginal extremists will dominate the future, it's that they'll do a lot of damage to everybody's future before they go down.

And for those who want more information and more detailed analyses, see the following by Gwynne Dyer from publisher McClelland and Stewart Ltd.:

Ignorant Armies, 2003, ISBN 0-7710-2977-2

Future: Tense, 2004, ISBN 0-7710-2978-0

sorry Dex.......but some of us have figured out exactly what you outline........and more. Maybe we are just quibbling over the details that continue to mirk up the global scenario....even if they are a distraction.;-)
 

Ocean Breeze

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Dexter Sinister said:
I wasn't talking about you, OB. You're sane and rational. Mostly... :wink:

ah shucks.....and you're cute.!! :wink:

here is one that relates to the topic .... dated tomorrow in some parts of the world;-)

American plan for first troop withdrawals within month
Sarah Baxter, Washington and Michael Smith



AMERICAN commanders of the war in Iraq have drawn up a bold plan to start pulling troops out of the country after elections next month.
The plan, which has been submitted to Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, calls for more than 60,000 troops — over a third of the total — to leave by the end of next year.



According to US television reports this weekend, the total number left in Iraq would fall from 161,000 to what defence experts call the “magic number” of below 100,000.

The Pentagon refused to confirm the proposals last night but a senior Ministry of Defence source said they appeared to “match our own plans” for a phased withdrawal under which most British troops will have left Iraq by the end of 2006.

Officials expect UK numbers to be cut by 5,000 from the current level of close to 8,500.

President George W Bush said in South Korea yesterday that American forces would “stay in the fight until we have achieved the victory our brave troops have fought for”. But he added that strategy would be “driven by the sober judgment of our military commanders on the ground”.

General George Casey, the US commander in Iraq, told Congress in September that the large US military presence was fuelling the insurgency. It “feeds the notion of occupation”, he said, and “extends the amount of time it will take for Iraqi security forces to become self-reliant”.

The plan he has drawn up with General John Abizaid, commander of US forces in the region, envisages the number of troops falling to 138,000 soon after the December 15 election — a drop of 23,000.

One or two battalions — about 2,000 troops at a time — could then begin pulling out in January if the elections to form a new government prove successful. The withdrawal would continue throughout the year, beginning slowly.

The plan was intended to remain secret until after the voting out of concern that Iraqis would think America was preparing to cut and run. But Pentagon and military officials decided to go public after a week of political infighting.

Senate Republicans passed a resolution last week demanding that 2006 should be a “period of significant transition to full sovereignty” in Iraq. Party chiefs also want a substantial pull-out before mid-term congressional elections next November.

Rumsfeld has yet to approve the plan and will not do so until after the Iraqi elections, according to the Pentagon.

The proposals are hedged with warnings about ground conditions and the capabilities of Iraqi forces. Of 96 Iraqi battalions, only one is deemed capable of operating without US military support.

However, British officials said the US proposals mirrored their own for a phased withdrawal in 2006. British forces would retreat into five or six bases in the southeast, leaving the Iraqi security forces to control the ground. They would leave their bases only if the Iraqis lost control.
 

no1important

Time Out
Jan 9, 2003
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RE: House Votes 403 to 3

I would like to know why violence and aggression is so ingrained into the US population. Bizzarre really. It seem they like violence and have a "need" or "desire" for war or constant conflict continually.
 

gopher

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Jun 26, 2005
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Who are the terrorists James??

The ones that target their own women and children



If this justifies Bush's criminal invasion of Iraq, then that same philosophy is invalidated by Bush's failure to invade Congo and Sudan because both terrorist nations killed far more innocent people.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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gopher said:
Who are the terrorists James??

The ones that target their own women and children



If this justifies Bush's criminal invasion of Iraq, then that same philosophy is invalidated by Bush's failure to invade Congo and Sudan because both terrorist nations killed far more innocent people.

If your leap was any bigger you would have fallen off the cliff.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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RE: House Votes 403 to 3

That's not a leap, ITN. If the US wants to liberate people and spread democracy, then they wouldn't be standing in the way of things like the ICC.