HEALTH CARE - User fees

[AnnaG]

User fees are common accepted practice? Where? In USA?

As to service being paid by those who don’t use it, it is called insurance in technical jargon. What we have in Canada is health insurance. By definition, insurance works because most people who contribute to it don’t use it.

And we want to keep it that way. That is why it is necessary for people to visit doctor’s offices for preventive care, pre and post natal care etc. They are not going to do that if you slap them with a fat user fee.



Again, you seem to have a total misconception of how insurances works. If everybody started to use it, the insurance service will go broke. I, for one have no problem contributing to the health care service, even though both of us use it rarely.

And you may be grumbling about paying for health care right now, but if you get into a serious accident, or get a terminal cancer requiring treatment running into tens of thousands of dollars, you will be the first one to scream at the top of your voice that is it government’s responsibility to give you medical treatment.

Any health care system works because many healthy people contribute to it. Even insurance companies in that paradise of health care, USA work that way. US insurance companies are in business because most of the subscribers don’t use the system.

My doc suggested that I visit her once a year for a checkup. Even if the user fee was $50, it wouldn't make that much difference to me over the period of a year. For people that can't afford a $20 once a year, there are various provincial programs to compensate and user fees should be deductible for everyone anyway.
Your argument is really thin. Anorexically thin, even.

 

[AnnaG]

So you want American type of health care system here, big deal. Get over it, it ain't happening. I don't even see user fees being implemented in the near future. Even Conservatives are not advocating it.

That's only because it's against the Health Act, not because it's a bad idea.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Singapore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to this, Singapore is a parliamentary democracy like Canada's.

Now don’t start on this again, Machjo. We have discussed this at length (if you want to discuss it again, put up a separate thread, I will be happy to discuss it with you).

Singapore is a one party state, it is the dictatorship of one party. It is not a dictatorship in the sense that Uganda under Idi Amin or Chile under Pinochet was a dictatorship, it is not built around one man. It is a dictatorship like China, Egypt or Syria, it is built around one party.

One party has all (or almost all, opposition parties may have one or two) seats in the Parliament, the party reigns supreme, it is not answerable to courts. It is very much a dictatorship.

Thus back in the 80s, the Prime Minister did not like long hair on men. So Singapore passed a law, saying that it is OK to discriminate against people with long hair, in government buildings men with long hair will be served last etc.

It is very much a dictatorship. But post a separate thread if you want to discuss it in detail.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I don't want to keep beating a dead horse, Machjo (and as I said, put up a separate thread if you want to discuss this further), but this appears in the website you gave.

"Annual Worldwide Press Freedom Index for 2004, Reporters Without Borders ranked Singapore 147 out of 167."

Very much a dictatorship.

 

[JLM]

My doc suggested that I visit her once a year for a checkup. Even if the user fee was $50, it wouldn't make that much difference to me over the period of a year. For people that can't afford a $20 once a year, there are various provincial programs to compensate and user fees should be deductible for everyone anyway.
Your argument is really thin. Anorexically thin, even.

You've hit the nail right on the head Anna, but then you may be a little more resourceful than you opponent poster. Certainly a provision could be made for people who lack means, just as there is now. I think if Gov't. got right the hell out of it and up an independent body (comprised of people who have worked in the medical industry and let the people buy private insurance with premiums according to risk it would be a vast improvement over what we have.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

You've hit the nail right on the head Anna, but then you may be a little more resourceful than you opponent poster. Certainly a provision could be made for people who lack means, just as there is now. I think if Gov't. got right the hell out of it and up an independent body (comprised of people who have worked in the medical industry and let the people buy private insurance with premiums according to risk it would be a vast improvement over what we have.

That would introduce American style health care over here. Good luck in achieving that.

 

[Trex]

Now don’t start on this again, Machjo. We have discussed this at length (if you want to discuss it again, put up a separate thread, I will be happy to discuss it with you).

Singapore is a one party state, it is the dictatorship of one party. It is not a dictatorship in the sense that Uganda under Idi Amin or Chile under Pinochet was a dictatorship, it is not built around one man. It is a dictatorship like China, Egypt or Syria, it is built around one party.

One party has all (or almost all, opposition parties may have one or two) seats in the Parliament, the party reigns supreme, it is not answerable to courts. It is very much a dictatorship.

Thus back in the 80s, the Prime Minister did not like long hair on men. So Singapore passed a law, saying that it is OK to discriminate against people with long hair, in government buildings men with long hair will be served last etc.

It is very much a dictatorship. But post a separate thread if you want to discuss it in detail.

And you have not even raised the chewing gum in public, durian's on the transit system or public flogging issues.
Trex

 

[SirJosephPorter]

And you have not even raised the chewing gum in public, durian's on the transit system or public flogging issues.
Trex

Chewing gum in public or transit system? Booooring! Public flogging now sounds interesting and worth raising here. Caning seems to be the way of life in Singapore (and in Malaysia). But as I said, that is the subject for separate thread, if Machjo wants to discuss it.

 

[JLM]

That would introduce American style health care over here. Good luck in achieving that.

The more I hear about the American Health Care system, is making me thing we should be taking a close look at it. Sorry Ger. :lol:

 

[SirJosephPorter]

The more I hear about the American Health Care system, is making me thing we should be taking a close look at it. Sorry Ger. :lol:

Well, go for it.

 

[ironsides]

That is not my figure, that is CNN's figure. Apparently Obama claimed that last year 80% of the bankruptcies were due to health care costs. CNN carried our fact check and conculdeed that the number was 70%.

I believe CNN.



I agree, AMA and CMA are partly responsible for doctor shortage. But you seemed to imply in one of your posts that it was Canadian health care system that was responsible for the shortage of doctors and nusres here. So I returned the favor.

Now your quoting Obama and his sidekick CNN. The majority of bankruptcy filings are due to the loss of jobs while municipalities have been trying to keep tax levels where they were before the recession in order not to reduce services and lay off city personal. In other words tax revenues have dropped by 40-50% because homes have lost value and are being taxed at the lower value. A modern health plan maybe important, but certainly not the most important issue. The U.S. is relatively a healthy nation.

Yes, I did imply that the Canadian Health system was atleast partially responsible for the shortage of doctors and nurses. What can a socialist form of medical care possibly offer a new doctor or nurse to join them. (I also include the U.S. Veterans Administration). They are both programs that cannot compete with private practice.

 

[JLM]

Yes, I did imply that the Canadian Health system was atleast partially responsible for the shortage of doctors and nurses. What can a socialist form of medical care possibly offer a new doctor or nurse to join them. (I also include the U.S. Veterans Administration). They are both programs that cannot compete with private practice.

Yep, I can see a certain amount of common sense in that statement, possibly a little more than that being trotted out by our resident "expert". :lol::lol:

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Now your quoting Obama and his sidekick CNN. The majority of bankruptcy filings are due to the loss of jobs while municipalities have been trying to keep tax levels where they were before the recession in order not to reduce services and lay off city personal. In other words tax revenues have dropped by 40-50% because homes have lost value and are being taxed at the lower value. A modern health plan maybe important, but certainly not the most important issue. The U.S. is relatively a healthy nation.

You are directly contradicting what CNN is saying. Do you have any evidence for your assertion (that 70% of bankruptcies are not caused by health care costs), any website to support it? Or are we expected to take your word for it?

No disrespect to you, but if it is the choice between believing you (with no suporting evidence) and believing CNN, I will believe CNN any day.

Yes, I did imply that the Canadian Health system was atleast partially responsible for the shortage of doctors and nurses. What can a socialist form of medical care possibly offer a new doctor or nurse to join them. (I also include the U.S. Veterans Administration). They are both programs that cannot compete with private practice.

So again we are back to the question. If the shortage of doctors in Canada is the fault of Canadian health care system, then is the expected shortage of 40,000 to 100,000 Family Physicians in USA the fault of US health care system?

 

[AnnaG]

That would introduce American style health care over here. Good luck in achieving that.

Baloney. What you've been saying basically is that ANY system other than what we have will result in the same system as the US. Well, you're wrong. There are 29 countries with systems better than ours and at least a few have similarities to the American system.

 

[AnnaG]

Who freakin cares about bankruptcies or the American healthcare system in this thread. It's about user fees pros and cons in OUR healthcare system.

 

[ironsides]

You are directly contradicting what CNN is saying. Do you have any evidence for your assertion (that 70% of bankruptcies are not caused by health care costs), any website to support it? Or are we expected to take your word for it?

62%, your off by 8%. So much for CNN.
Study Links Medical Costs and Personal Bankruptcy - BusinessWeek


They of course there is you personal favorite the Fraser Institute that says:
"TORONTO, ON-The idea that large numbers of Americans are declaring bankruptcy due to medical expenses is a myth and the introduction of government-run health insurance in the U.S. will do nothing to reduce personal bankruptcies, concludes a new study from the Fraser Institute, an independent think tank."
U.S. medical bankruptcies a myth; personal bankruptcy rate higher in Canada

62.1 is the best I can give ya.

Medical bills cause 62.1% of all U.S. bankruptcies | National Union of Public and General Employees


CNN is a far to Lefty a source for anyone to have any faith in. As for shortage of doctor's, it is the doctors themselves that are causing the shortage (AMA,CMA), not any health system. Wish lawyers had such an organization, god they breed like guppies.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

62%, your off by 8%. So much for CNN.
Study Links Medical Costs and Personal Bankruptcy - BusinessWeek


They of course there is you personal favorite the Fraser Institute that says:
"TORONTO, ON-The idea that large numbers of Americans are declaring bankruptcy due to medical expenses is a myth and the introduction of government-run health insurance in the U.S. will do nothing to reduce personal bankruptcies, concludes a new study from the Fraser Institute, an independent think tank."
U.S. medical bankruptcies a myth; personal bankruptcy rate higher in Canada

62.1 is the best I can give ya.

Medical bills cause 62.1% of all U.S. bankruptcies | National Union of Public and General Employees


CNN is a far to Lefty a source for anyone to have any faith in. As for shortage of doctor's, it is the doctors themselves that are causing the shortage (AMA,CMA), not any health system. Wish lawyers had such an organization, god they breed like guppies.

Ironsides, in case you are not aware, Fraser Institute is a conservative think tank (similar to your Cato Institute or Heritage Foundation) which is committed to introducing American style health care system into Canada (they are a great proponent of user fees). So I wouldn’t believe anything I read from Fraser Institute (any more than I would believe anything I read from Cato Institute or Heritage Foundation).

As to Business week, I am not familiar with it, I will have to read it to find out if it has a conservative bias.

Anyway, even 62% bankruptcies due to health care costs is pretty high.

As to doctor’s shortage, shortage in Canada is caused by the health care system and that in USA is caused by the doctors themselves. Strange argument. So evidently what you are saying is that Canadian health care system is deeply flawed and your health care system is perfect (since doctor shortage in your country is the fault of the doctors)

However, I can understand you having a patriotic faith in your health care system. What I find difficult to understand is the simplistic, childlike faith that some Canadians have in US health care system, in spite of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

[AnnaG]

62%, your off by 8%. So much for CNN.
Study Links Medical Costs and Personal Bankruptcy - BusinessWeek


They of course there is you personal favorite the Fraser Institute that says:
"TORONTO, ON-The idea that large numbers of Americans are declaring bankruptcy due to medical expenses is a myth and the introduction of government-run health insurance in the U.S. will do nothing to reduce personal bankruptcies, concludes a new study from the Fraser Institute, an independent think tank."
U.S. medical bankruptcies a myth; personal bankruptcy rate higher in Canada

62.1 is the best I can give ya.

Medical bills cause 62.1% of all U.S. bankruptcies | National Union of Public and General Employees


CNN is a far to Lefty a source for anyone to have any faith in. As for shortage of doctor's, it is the doctors themselves that are causing the shortage (AMA,CMA), not any health system. Wish lawyers had such an organization, god they breed like guppies.

lol As Avro would say, "PWNED".

 

[ironsides]

Ironsides, in case you are not aware, Fraser Institute is a conservative think tank (similar to your Cato Institute or Heritage Foundation) which is committed to introducing American style health care system into Canada (they are a great proponent of user fees). So I wouldn’t believe anything I read from Fraser Institute (any more than I would believe anything I read from Cato Institute or Heritage Foundation).

As to Business week, I am not familiar with it, I will have to read it to find out if it has a conservative bias.

Anyway, even 62% bankruptcies due to health care costs is pretty high.

As to doctor’s shortage, shortage in Canada is caused by the health care system and that in USA is caused by the doctors themselves. Strange argument. So evidently what you are saying is that Canadian health care system is deeply flawed and your health care system is perfect (since doctor shortage in your country is the fault of the doctors)

However, I can understand you having a patriotic faith in your health care system. What I find difficult to understand is the simplistic, childlike faith that some Canadians have in US health care system, in spite of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

It is not patriotism, we just have a excellent health system. I have no idea where these negative figures about our health care system comes from, but having been almost everywhere in the world, there are only 2-3 countries I world trust my life too and only one the U.S. for cancer treatment. No, I have not tried most of them, but I know many people who have. I never said we did not need a health care system, but so far I have not heard anyone talk about regulating the price of treatment. (includes: medicines, equipment, doctors, technicians, nurses fees as well as the 25-40 administrators some say we need to treat each patient.

I am aware of what the Fraser Institute is and does.

 

[TenPenny]

It is not patriotism, we just have a excellent health system. .

Canada has an excellent health care system, too. We just like to complain about it, because we want to make it better.