Headshots

[wulfie68]

Before the lockout, there were many bad things happening
in hockey, bench clearing brawls, stick swinging incidents, spearing, along with the clutching and holding, that is now gone from the game, so we are just at another new transition point, where the game will take another turn for the 'good'.

Talloola, I know you watch the game but this statement is largely incorrect and looks like it could come from someone who hasn't watched it in 2 decades.

Bench clearing brawls are more rare in hockey than in other professional sports. I don't remember one since the Hab-Flyer dust up in the pre-game skate in the early 90s. That's over a decade ago. The hockey establishment stepped on them hard, as they should have.

Stick swinging still happens. The really nasty two handers are more rare than they were for while but the Marty McSorley and Chris Simon type episodes have always been extremely rare and treated with the severity they deserved. Same with spearing.

The big change post-lockout has been the elimination of the clutching and grabbing, primarily in the neutral zone, but also in front of the net. One thing I think would help to get rid of some of the bad hits we see is to move to no-touch icing: do a rule that there is no race for it unless an attacker is clearly in front. The league needs to also look at the whole intent to injure section in the rulebook. Thats about all you could call on Cooke, but its hard to argue he DIDN'T mean to hurt Savard. On the other hand, Ovechkin may not have had that same intent but that doesn't let him off the hook for a hit from behind. We can say Wisniewski's hit was dirtier than Ovie's but it does show a double standard when you compare Ovechkin's suspension to Maxim Lapierre's for a similar hit (a couple weeks ago).

 

[Risus]

Talloola, I know you watch the game but this statement is largely incorrect and looks like it could come from someone who hasn't watched it in 2 decades.

Bench clearing brawls are more rare in hockey than in other professional sports. I don't remember one since the Hab-Flyer dust up in the pre-game skate in the early 90s. That's over a decade ago. The hockey establishment stepped on them hard, as they should have.

Stick swinging still happens. The really nasty two handers are more rare than they were for while but the Marty McSorley and Chris Simon type episodes have always been extremely rare and treated with the severity they deserved. Same with spearing.

The big change post-lockout has been the elimination of the clutching and grabbing, primarily in the neutral zone, but also in front of the net. One thing I think would help to get rid of some of the bad hits we see is to move to no-touch icing: do a rule that there is no race for it unless an attacker is clearly in front. The league needs to also look at the whole intent to injure section in the rulebook. Thats about all you could call on Cooke, but its hard to argue he DIDN'T mean to hurt Savard. On the other hand, Ovechkin may not have had that same intent but that doesn't let him off the hook for a hit from behind. We can say Wisniewski's hit was dirtier than Ovie's but it does show a double standard when you compare Ovechkin's suspension to Maxim Lapierre's for a similar hit (a couple weeks ago).

The NHL needs to get their act in order. But one point I agree with is a rule change for no touch icing.

 

[talloola]

Talloola, I know you watch the game but this statement is largely incorrect and looks like it could come from someone who hasn't watched it in 2 decades.

Bench clearing brawls are more rare in hockey than in other professional sports. I don't remember one since the Hab-Flyer dust up in the pre-game skate in the early 90s. That's over a decade ago. The hockey establishment stepped on them hard, as they should have.

Stick swinging still happens. The really nasty two handers are more rare than they were for while but the Marty McSorley and Chris Simon type episodes have always been extremely rare and treated with the severity they deserved. Same with spearing.

The big change post-lockout has been the elimination of the clutching and grabbing, primarily in the neutral zone, but also in front of the net. One thing I think would help to get rid of some of the bad hits we see is to move to no-touch icing: do a rule that there is no race for it unless an attacker is clearly in front. The league needs to also look at the whole intent to injure section in the rulebook. Thats about all you could call on Cooke, but its hard to argue he DIDN'T mean to hurt Savard. On the other hand, Ovechkin may not have had that same intent but that doesn't let him off the hook for a hit from behind. We can say Wisniewski's hit was dirtier than Ovie's but it does show a double standard when you compare Ovechkin's suspension to Maxim Lapierre's for a similar hit (a couple weeks ago).

I have watched hockey for over 60 years, and haven't missed any time at all.

I do know that the bench clearing brawls were a long time
ago, and didn't mean they were 'just' prior to lock out,
just meant that since I was very young, the game has become
more 'sofisticated', and isn't being played by beer drinking
non athletic, tough guys, along with guys who are just
naturally talented. I saw my share of bench clearing brawls, coaches attacking each other, spearing isn't even
talked anymore, but used to be the sneaky but painful
way of jabbing at someone. And I don't want to see the
instigator rule taken out, as that was a crude way of
controlling the behavior. Good long suspensions will work.
Players hate to sit out, and repeat offenders should get
more and more time out.

Clutching and grabbing isn't done anywhere on the ice, and
now the game is one of speed, talent and size.
Do you realize that of all the suspensions chris simon
received, the most time any of his victims missed playing
is 'one period'.

I want to see the 'arranged' fight disappear from the game,
they are silly, and make the game take on a roller derby character.

The dirtiest hit of all was the Richards hit on Boothe,
which was the start of this mess, as campbell gave him
'nothing', then wouldn't give cooke anything because he
didn't give richards anything. Insanity.
I think Campbell should step down at the end of this
season, and someone who can make more intelligent decisions
step in and take his place.
The ruling on cooke could have been, intent to injure,
and Richards too.
But having said that, the league as a whole is improving
and we are not watching boston and philidelphia almost
kill each other in blood baths like we used to see back
in the 70's.
Most of the players are more intelligent as well as talented,
and are mentally tough, which is needed to even make it to
the NHL, in this day and age.

 

[Iceman778]

the player today are not stronger because they are not healthy

the opposite is true, better fitness, better diet, better training, better
skaters, bigger players, everything in todays player is better, just like
most everything else in sports, it is better now than before.

 

[AnnaG]

Les pretty much quit watching pro hockey when teams started hiring "players" as "hitmen" whose sole purpose is to bash other players rather than play hockey.

 

[gerryh]

so he hasn't watched hockey since at least the early to mid 70's.

 

[AnnaG]

the player today are not stronger because they are not healthy

the opposite is true, better fitness, better diet, better training, better
skaters, bigger players, everything in todays player is better, just like
most everything else in sports, it is better now than before.

Really? Then why does the list here have so many players from decades ago?

 

[AnnaG]

so he hasn't watched hockey since at least the early to mid 70's.

Something like that, yes, except for the odd game in the semis or finals.

 

[gerryh]

Something like that, yes, except for the odd game in the semis or finals.

and can it be assumed it is the same with you, or have you continued to be a fan?

 

[wulfie68]

Well, the day of the enforcer is pretty much passed: fights still happen but its not like the 70s and 80s where you had to have a guy like that on your bench. These days you really can't afford to have someone that can't play the game because of the salary cap issues and the way penalties (and powerplay performance) have all eliminated the effectiveness of the old Broadstreet Bully style. The bane now is guys running around hitting with abandon (a lot of which should be called charging or boarding) and a lapse in coaching that has players keeping their heads down more.

And as far that list of legends, its one person's subjective list. Its personal opinion, a lot of which will be influenced by age. And when you look at something like that honestly, it doesn't take into account the talent in the game today: there are a number of guys who are talented enough to be on that list, who will make it to the hall of fame and will be on someone else's list of all time greats 20-30 years from now.

 

[Risus]

the player today are not stronger because they are not healthy

the opposite is true, better fitness, better diet, better training, better
skaters, bigger players, everything in todays player is better, just like
most everything else in sports, it is better now than before.

Don't forget steroids...

 

[talloola]

Don't forget steroids...

I don't even think about steroids, no one has given me
reason to.

 

[talloola]

Really? Then why does the list here have so many players from decades ago?

Best players of all time have to be players from decades
ago, as they have to complete a career to be qualified
for that stature.

because it was decades ago, this is now, and we are talking
about now.

Wayne Gretzky, Orr and certain players of that stature will
always be remembered and admired, and the stars of today
will someday be listed 'decades' ago as you say.

The teams as a whole are much better, all players are much
better, coaching, training, minors, equipment, fitness,
diet, skating, all much better than decades ago, or for
that matter, 5-10 years ago.

There are many many players who played in the NHL years ago,
who would never make the team in this day and age.

Majority of players now who are very 'big', are also very 'talented'. A guy who is 6'2" now is just an average
size, and there are also some smaller players, but those
guys are great skaters, have to be. There are quite a few
players who are 6'4" and up, and two players in the league
are 6'8", both of whom are top notch players.

Years ago, the teams were not nearly as big as they are
now, and most of the players who were really big were just
goons, and couldn't play that well, no so today.

Those players decades ago were the best at that time, these
players now, aren't old enough to be part of that list.
Goalies are better now than before.

If you follow sports enough for many years, it's very easy
to remember and see all of that happening.

 

[Praxius]

My stance on the whole matter is that there shouldn't be any head shots period.... regardless if the guy has his head down or up.... aim for their body, there's no need to go full on into somebody's head.

And in most cases, you can't always know where everybody is all the time. And there have been some people who just passed the puck and still clobbered in the head, or someone just got on the ice or way out of the area of play and some idiot who got pissed about something, just plows into them when they shouldn't have needed to be alert and avoid hits in the first place.

Headshots imo are geared to take someone out of the game, plain and simple.

Aim for their body or don't go after them at all.

Anybody who headshots, should be kicked out of the game, because the right headshot could take someone out of their career.

It's a game afterall and people shouldn't have to fear being smashed by an attack coming from a blind side or when they shouldn't be expecting a hit and risk some form of permanent damage. Body checks, the occasional fight.... sure, but a full body/elbow hit directly at someone's head is excessive.

 

[Praxius]

Best players of all time have to be players from decades
ago, as they have to complete a career to be qualified
for that stature.

because it was decades ago, this is now, and we are talking
about now.

Wayne Gretzky, Orr and certain players of that stature will
always be remembered and admired, and the stars of today
will someday be listed 'decades' ago as you say.

The teams as a whole are much better, all players are much
better, coaching, training, minors, equipment, fitness,
diet, skating, all much better than decades ago, or for
that matter, 5-10 years ago.

There are many many players who played in the NHL years ago,
who would never make the team in this day and age.

Majority of players now who are very 'big', are also very 'talented'. A guy who is 6'2" now is just an average
size, and there are also some smaller players, but those
guys are great skaters, have to be. There are quite a few
players who are 6'4" and up, and two players in the league
are 6'8", both of whom are top notch players.

Years ago, the teams were not nearly as big as they are
now, and most of the players who were really big were just
goons, and couldn't play that well, no so today.

Those players decades ago were the best at that time, these
players now, aren't old enough to be part of that list.
Goalies are better now than before.

If you follow sports enough for many years, it's very easy
to remember and see all of that happening.

I'm just skimming through, so sorry if I repeat something said already.... but to add to the above, back in the 80's and earlier, most of the talented and skilled players with the puck like Gretzky, were not targeted as much as the same styled players are targeted today.

They were given a level of respect and space, where most who went after them, went after the puck, not the player and anytime I seen someone plow into a guy like Gretzky, the level of boo's from fans would abound... even if they were fans of your own team. It was just something you didn't do because most knew they weren't fighters or play rough, they're puck handlers. But now watch what's done to Crosby as an example..... during the last playoffs, just about every time Crosby got the puck, he was alone, then doubled teamed by the other players, up-ended, smashed into the boards, plowed into the corners, the other team is all over him the moment he gets the puck.

And I suppose that makes sense. Don't give the guy with the most talent any space to setup and stay on them so they don't score..... but it's certainly to a whole new level these days and I seen a lot of cheap shots given out too in the process.

It seems today that most of the talented players are given a lot more special attention when it comes to physical contact... in that they get the most and the worst, and risk being taken out of the game sooner then everybody else.

 

[talloola]

I'm just skimming through, so sorry if I repeat something said already.... but to add to the above, back in the 80's and earlier, most of the talented and skilled players with the puck like Gretzky, were not targeted as much as the same styled players are targeted today.

They were given a level of respect and space, where most who went after them, went after the puck, not the player and anytime I seen someone plow into a guy like Gretzky, the level of boo's from fans would abound... even if they were fans of your own team. It was just something you didn't do because most knew they weren't fighters or play rough, they're puck handlers. But now watch what's done to Crosby as an example..... during the last playoffs, just about every time Crosby got the puck, he was alone, then doubled teamed by the other players, up-ended, smashed into the boards, plowed into the corners, the other team is all over him the moment he gets the puck.

And I suppose that makes sense. Don't give the guy with the most talent any space to setup and stay on them so they don't score..... but it's certainly to a whole new level these days and I seen a lot of cheap shots given out too in the process.

It seems today that most of the talented players are given a lot more special attention when it comes to physical contact... in that they get the most and the worst, and risk being taken out of the game sooner then everybody else.

yes, you're right, but back then gretzky for example had
semenko looking out for him, so anyone touched him had to
deal with semenko, today there is the instigator rule, and
they are not allowed to do that, and that is OK, cause I
don't want to see that come back, there is enough fighting
now, and that would just cause more. The refs do turn a
blind eye on many occasions when team mates come to the
rescue of one of theirs who has just been roughed up, so
it does kind of even out.
The players now are so big and fast, that we will see more
of the heavy play on the boards etc., travelling faster,
are bigger and the collisions and hits are stronger, but I
think the league is slowly sorting it out, the new rule
that came in will make players 'think' more out there, and
the dirty cowardly hit, like cook did on savard will be
few and far between, and if they do happen, the penalties
will be severe.

 

[AnnaG]

and can it be assumed it is the same with you, or have you continued to be a fan?

I'll tag along to a local game but my preference is soccer. Not so much watching as playing and coaching.

 

[AnnaG]

Best players of all time have to be players from decades
ago, as they have to complete a career to be qualified
for that stature.

because it was decades ago, this is now, and we are talking
about now.

Wayne Gretzky, Orr and certain players of that stature will
always be remembered and admired, and the stars of today
will someday be listed 'decades' ago as you say.

The teams as a whole are much better, all players are much
better, coaching, training, minors, equipment, fitness,
diet, skating, all much better than decades ago, or for
that matter, 5-10 years ago.

There are many many players who played in the NHL years ago,
who would never make the team in this day and age.

Majority of players now who are very 'big', are also very 'talented'. A guy who is 6'2" now is just an average
size, and there are also some smaller players, but those
guys are great skaters, have to be. There are quite a few
players who are 6'4" and up, and two players in the league
are 6'8", both of whom are top notch players.

Years ago, the teams were not nearly as big as they are
now, and most of the players who were really big were just
goons, and couldn't play that well, no so today.

Those players decades ago were the best at that time, these
players now, aren't old enough to be part of that list.
Goalies are better now than before.

If you follow sports enough for many years, it's very easy
to remember and see all of that happening.

Ok. That makes sense. Some things do get better with age; like techniques, training, technology, etc. But who's to say thet Orr or LeMieux wouldn't cut the mustard now if they had the same modern training, technology, etc.?

 

[talloola]

Ok. That makes sense. Some things do get better with age; like techniques, training, technology, etc. But who's to say thet Orr or LeMieux wouldn't cut the mustard now if they had the same modern training, technology, etc.?

of course they would, those particular players and others
like them will always rise to the occasion, the were the
cream of the crop, but the cream of the crop is the minority
not the majority.

and on top of technique, training etc etc., todays players 'majority' are bigger, stronger, skate better and more talented, the minor hockey these
days is more thorough, coached better, kids have roller blades at a very
young age, and by the time they are 12 or so, you can allready see the
possibilities of the future, and there are late bloomers too, and the
teams are always hunting them out, from the lower leagues, not too many
but always a few.
No more beer drinking after games, and night life, and poor diet, the
management see to it, that the players are fit and eat right, and if any
can't or won't do that, out they go.
eg. shane o'brian on the canucks, has been kept out of a few games because
of 'off ice' behavior and breaking rules, hence he has been put on a new
program away from the team, and won't be playing till management and coach
see the improvement. (maybe he will be in next game, he has missed four now
I believe). Years ago, in orr's day, that dicipline was not there.

 

[AnnaG]

My stance on the whole matter is that there shouldn't be any head shots period.... regardless if the guy has his head down or up.... aim for their body, there's no need to go full on into somebody's head.

And in most cases, you can't always know where everybody is all the time. And there have been some people who just passed the puck and still clobbered in the head, or someone just got on the ice or way out of the area of play and some idiot who got pissed about something, just plows into them when they shouldn't have needed to be alert and avoid hits in the first place.

Headshots imo are geared to take someone out of the game, plain and simple.

I'll ditto that. But then I can't even see why a player will go after another player after he's gotten rid of the puck unless it is too late for him to stop.

Aim for their body or don't go after them at all.

Anybody who headshots, should be kicked out of the game, because the right headshot could take someone out of their career.

It's a game afterall and people shouldn't have to fear being smashed by an attack coming from a blind side or when they shouldn't be expecting a hit and risk some form of permanent damage. Body checks, the occasional fight.... sure, but a full body/elbow hit directly at someone's head is excessive.

Ditto, IMO.