Hamas Wins

DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
18
Whitby, Ontario
Re: RE: Hamas Wins

Jay said:
Well, we can all pretend that Hamas is a cute, cuddly teddy bear that posses no threat to anyone....I probably won't join you, but feel free.

Hey, if the world could accept the re-election of the terrorist party in the US in 2004, then I think we can accept the election of Hamas in Palestine.
 

DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
18
Whitby, Ontario
Re: RE: Hamas Wins

Nosferax said:
The Nazi party was also elected by the people... If a new Nazi party is elected somewhere should we respect the decision of the people now that we know what happened the last time? We know Hamas support terrorism. That's a fact. Should we also endorse them.

The world was correct to accept the election of the Nazi party in Germany, where the world wasn't correct was when it stood idle and allowed Hitler to unconstitutionally claim supreme power of Germany, the world wasn't correct when it stood idle and allowed him to take Poland.

The actual election of Hitler was legitimate, what happened afterwards wasn't.

I mean is the will of the people only correct if they pick the party we want to. Look at Sinn Féin in Ireland, they had close ties to terrorism, but they were elected and nobody cared that much.

Perhaps now that Hamas will have power of Palestine, maybe they won't need to blow themselves up anymore. Sure they are anti-Israel, can you really blame them? If you look at the events of the past 60 years, one can understand why they are bitter.

Is it wrong to be anti- another country? The Bush administration was anti-Iraq, anti- Cuba, anti-North Korea, anti- Iran and so on. Nobody says anything about that.
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
21,513
66
48
Minnesota: Gopher State
Bush said that he wanted democracy in the Middle East and now he has it in Palestine. Therefore, he has no complaint but is obligated to recognize the new government. Ditto for all of his supporters. See? In life, you often get what you pay for. :D
 

Nosferax

Nominee Member
Re: RE: Hamas Wins

DasFX said:
Nosferax said:
The Nazi party was also elected by the people... If a new Nazi party is elected somewhere should we respect the decision of the people now that we know what happened the last time? We know Hamas support terrorism. That's a fact. Should we also endorse them.

The world was correct to accept the election of the Nazi party in Germany, where the world wasn't correct was when it stood idle and allowed Hitler to unconstitutionally claim supreme power of Germany, the world wasn't correct when it stood idle and allowed him to take Poland.

The actual election of Hitler was legitimate, what happened afterwards wasn't.

I mean is the will of the people only correct if they pick the party we want to. Look at Sinn Féin in Ireland, they had close ties to terrorism, but they were elected and nobody cared that much.

Perhaps now that Hamas will have power of Palestine, maybe they won't need to blow themselves up anymore. Sure they are anti-Israel, can you really blame them? If you look at the events of the past 60 years, one can understand why they are bitter.

Is it wrong to be anti- another country? The Bush administration was anti-Iraq, anti- Cuba, anti-North Korea, anti- Iran and so on. Nobody says anything about that.

You say they were correct to accept hitler and then you say they were guilty of not doing anything once he started murdering and invading others... Think of all the pain and loss people wouldn't have been subject to if the rest of the world would have taken a stand against him at the start. You can't have your cake and eat it too... If you accept the legitimacy of Hamas as a political party and government you have to accept their agenda also. That means you are allright with the use of terrorism as a political tool and that you also accept the killing of innocent people.
 

DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
18
Whitby, Ontario
I think not said:
Well your new Prime Minister begs to differ.

Of course he said that, for some reason the world believes that Israeli government can do no harm. I think it is worldwide guilt of allowing 6 million Jews to be slaughtered. This is why they can fire missiles into other sovereign nations at will, this is why can have nuclear weapons while others in the region can't and this is why they were able to expropriate land that they hadn't occupied in great numbers for hundreds of years.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
Israel is allowed nukes because they didn't sign the NPA.

Israel is allowed to retaliate against her enemies.

Briton took the land from Turkey and gave it to the UN, who gave it to the Jews. The Palestinians want it, but to bad.
 

DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
18
Whitby, Ontario
Re: RE: Hamas Wins

[quote="Nosferax]You say they were correct to accept hitler and then you say they were guilty of not doing anything once he started murdering and invading others... Think of all the pain and loss people wouldn't have been subject to if the rest of the world would have taken a stand against him at the start. You can't have your cake and eat it too... If you accept the legitimacy of Hamas as a political party and government you have to accept their agenda also. That means you are allright with the use of terrorism as a political tool and that you also accept the killing of innocent people.[/quote]

Hitler's election victory was legit, and was rightfully accepted. The world should have taken notice when he went on to pass the Enabling Act which in essence turned Germany from a multi-party decocracy to a single party dictatorship.

I'm not saying Hamas has a great track record, but to discount them before they have even been sworn in is a bit hypocritical. The world should accept them and have a wait and see approach.

How can the will of the people be wrong?
 

DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
18
Whitby, Ontario
Re: RE: Hamas Wins

Jay said:
Israel is allowed nukes because they didn't sign the NPA.

Israel is allowed to retaliate against her enemies.

Briton took the land from Turkey and gave it to the UN, who gave it to the Jews. The Palestinians want it, but to bad.

So since North Korea withdrew in 2003 then they should be allowed to produce Nuclear Arms right? So if Iran withdraws from the treaty, then they can make all the nukes the want?

If Israel is allowed to retaliate against her enemies, then could Lebanon legitamitely lauch and attack against Israel?

So why is it too bad for the Palestinians who that land? Why was Briton allowed to take the land in the first place?
 

nitzomoe

Electoral Member
Dec 31, 2004
334
0
16
Toronto
Re: RE: Hamas Wins

Nosferax said:
FiveParadox said:
If Hamas did indeed win legitimately, then we should be bound to respect the choice of the people. That doesn't mean we need to co-operate on the world stage, though, if such a government chooses to act in a way which our own nation may deem to be inappropriate.

The Nazi party was also elected by the people... If a new Nazi party is elected somewhere should we respect the decision of the people now that we know what happened the last time? We know Hamas support terrorism. That's a fact. Should we also endorse them.

this is a poor example. If anything the world continues to endorse parties which are either antiislmaic or antiimmigration in an attempt to keep their ancestry pure. It is essentially the same as teh Nazi party, but with finely worded statements to hide this fact. I am of course refering to Germany's Merkel and the Netherlands problem. But I digress.

As has already been stated before, one mans terrorism is another man's freedom fighter. Our definitions for terrorist are no longer useful because essentially everyone who is involved in politics would fit that definition. Manachem Beghin was part of Erguz, many Israeli leaders were part of Lehi all of whom were admitted and admired terrorists by the israeli ppl. Using your logic we have endorsed and propogated terrorism since the inception of Israel, thats not what Im saying thats what essentially your saying.

I say disengage unilaterally and see whether the Palestinian ppl can rule tehmselves without curruption.
 

nitzomoe

Electoral Member
Dec 31, 2004
334
0
16
Toronto
Re: RE: Hamas Wins

Jay said:
Israel is allowed nukes because they didn't sign the NPA.

Israel is allowed to retaliate against her enemies.

Briton took the land from Turkey and gave it to the UN, who gave it to the Jews. The Palestinians want it, but to bad.

simply amazing, just because you didnt sign the NPA doesnt give anyone the rite to build Nukes. Israeli's "retaliation" policies seemed to be showing its true face, many of the israeli-arab wars that I learned in school were acts of aggression by the arabs are no turning out to be outright aggression by the IDF an d governemnt of israel.

One a minor note, information has come up concerning the right to retaliate with nuclear weapons in the Yom Kippur War, Israel had aircraft ready to strike armed with nuclear weapons at Damascus or Cairo in the event that the israeli line collapsed at golan heights.

UN was trying to deal with the horrendous problem of the holocaust, obviously they felt inclined to do good to the jews after turning a blind eye when they were the league of nations. Interesting statistic, even thoguh jews in 1948 owned only 6.5% of the land the UN plan gave them around 40%. The UN plan was heavily skewed in favour of the jews, unfairly punishing the Palestinians for the league of nations mistakes.

the UN plan, like all UN ideas was illconcieved, idiotic and horrendously planned. Essentially it created the environment for war as the new "Jewish" state actually had 40% of its populace arab, which was unacceptable to Ben-Gurion.Also the borders formed pincers which was threatening for the new nations.

The british essentially lied to the Palestinians ppl, in a colonial fashion agreeing to boths sides wishes of a state.

BTW many israeli groups held that all of the transjordan should be divided up as well which was a great fear amongst arab antions that this was only a start for Israel.
 

DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
18
Whitby, Ontario
Re: RE: Hamas Wins

the caracal kid said:
it is indeed amazing to see the level of bias on this issue. (driven by? ignorance? fear? programming?...)

I have no bias towards any of the parties. I care about the world, but at the same time I don't. I have no vested interest in the problems of the Middle East, but I do find it hypocritical for the "West" to condemn a government that was fairly and legitimately elected in an election that they had initiated and supported.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
Re: RE: Hamas Wins

DasFX said:
Jay said:
Israel is allowed nukes because they didn't sign the NPA.

Israel is allowed to retaliate against her enemies.

Briton took the land from Turkey and gave it to the UN, who gave it to the Jews. The Palestinians want it, but to bad.

So since North Korea withdrew in 2003 then they should be allowed to produce Nuclear Arms right? So if Iran withdraws from the treaty, then they can make all the nukes the want?

If Israel is allowed to retaliate against her enemies, then could Lebanon legitamitely lauch and attack against Israel?

So why is it too bad for the Palestinians who that land? Why was Briton allowed to take the land in the first place?

Sure and if you want to see WW3 let's get the ball rolling because the sooner it begins the sooner it is over, and the crying, bleeding and dying isn't going to be over here. There will be hell to pay and "they" know it.


Briton took the land in WWI.
 

DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
18
Whitby, Ontario
Re: RE: Hamas Wins

Jay said:
Sure and if you want to see WW3 let's get the ball rolling because the sooner it begins the sooner it is over, and the crying, bleeding and dying isn't going to be over here. There will be hell to pay and "they" know it.

Briton took the land in WWI.

Of course I don't want to see anyone have Nuclear weapons, but I still don't see how we allow the US (the only nation to use Nuclear weapons against innocient civilians) to dictate who should and shouldn't have nuclear weapons.

Think for a moment that you live in Tehran, how would you feel if your biggest enemy had weapons that could obliterate you in one shot, would you not want them too?

The world is afraid that Iran will strike first, who is to say that Israel won't? Are Jews more trustworthy than Muslims?

You can't have one strong nation? The world was much safer when the USSR was around, because there was a counter balance, now the US and its allies think they rule the world.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
Well my unwelcome opinion around here would be...

That the U.S. stop sending their 350 million bucks in aide annually to Palestine now because they are ruled by a terrorist organization.

Ashwari this morning said "If the US doesn't want to pay us - we'll get it from Iran or another nation willing to support us"....

Fine - they are probably collecting payoff money from many middle east countries regardless of who is in power. Primarily to keep Isreal in its "place" whatever that is.

I don't like to see my tax dollars fund terrorism. Too many other good people in real poverty who are not brandishing their swords could use the U.S. money.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
1,947
2
38
www.kdm.ca
Re: RE: Hamas Wins

DasFX said:
the caracal kid said:
it is indeed amazing to see the level of bias on this issue. (driven by? ignorance? fear? programming?...)

I have no bias towards any of the parties. I care about the world, but at the same time I don't. I have no vested interest in the problems of the Middle East, but I do find it hypocritical for the "West" to condemn a government that was fairly and legitimately elected in an election that they had initiated and supported.

sorry, i didn't mean you. i meant all those that are doing preicisely what you are describing: rejecting the will of the people because it is Hamas. The level of pro-Isrial bias from the west is staggering. There won't be peace so long as there is no willingness to deal with the parties fairly. (then again, peace would seriously cut into the profits from weapons sales)
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
It isn't just the U.S.A. - European nations are also of a mind to cut off aid as well.
Jan. 27, 2006, 12:53AM
Europe may halt aid unless Hamas changes


By GREGORY KATZ
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

LONDON - Palestinians looking to Europe for reassurances that vital economic aid would continue despite the lopsided victory of Hamas found few encouraging signs Thursday.

Grim-faced leaders in Europe's major capitals said Hamas, classified by the European Union as a terrorist group, must recognize Israel's right to exist and cease all violence before taking control of the Palestinian government.

Their calls, which echoed those of President Bush, carry extra weight because their nations and the European Union have sent hundreds of millions of dollars in recent years to the Palestinian Authority, which is near bankruptcy.

Hamas, whose military wing uses terrorist tactics while its social wing distributes food and helps educate Palestinian children, stands at a crossroads, British Prime Minister Tony Blair said.

"They have to decide between a path of democracy or a path of violence," he said.

Cabinet ministers in France, Spain, Germany and Italy also called upon Hamas to change course. And Silvio Berlusconi, Italy's prime minister, complained that the Hamas victory makes an already elusive peace agreement much more difficult to achieve.

The chorus of disapproval suggested that most European leaders are not willing to continue funding the Palestinian government unless Hamas publicly renounces terrorism and recognizes Israel.

Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of Israel. The late Yasser Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization had a similar clause but removed it after the Oslo peace accords were signed 12 years ago.

Michael Hudson, director of Contemporary Arab Studies at Georgetown University in Washington, said the financial support of the European Union has been extremely important to the Palestinians, who have received less aid from the United States.

"It would be a real blow if the Europeans turned it off," Hudson said. "We don't know yet how it will unfold. If I had to guess, I think the aid will continue. I think European opinion is quite different than U.S. opinion, and they might find cutting off the aid to be unwise punishment."

Hudson said Europe's leaders may conclude that to suspend the aid programs would be to "invite" a return to bloodshed by pushing the Palestinians into a financial collapse. Instead, Hudson said, the Europeans may look to any conciliatory statements by Hamas as an indication the group has changed now that it has political power.

Europe's extensive aid program to the Palestinians reflects a generally sympathetic view toward the Palestinian cause.

Some of the money goes directly to the Palestinian Authority, which uses it to pay for basic infrastructure needs including roads, schools, and worker payrolls, and some of it is channelled into humanitarian aid programs designed to ease the suffering of tens of thousands of Palestinians in refugee camps.

European leaders stepped up aid after the Palestinians launched a second intifada, or uprising, against Israeli rule four years ago. Money from the European countries has been used on an emergency basis to keep the Palestinian government functioning throughout the prolonged crisis.

The EU funds have also been used to pay for financial and political reforms that were intended to reduce rampant corruption and waste inside the Palestinian Authority. Specific funds have been allocated to help the Palestinians establish a judicial system, a tax system and a more open international trading system.

The funds were also used to help pay for the electoral system that brought Hamas to power on Thursday.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
DasFX said:
Wednesday's Child said:
I don't like to see my tax dollars fund terrorism.

Well then I suggest you stop paying your taxes to Washington and Bush if you don't want your tax dollars to fund terrorism.

Misinformed response

I would rather my tax dollars be redirected into another more deserving group.

Apparently bias blinds your rational side.