Gun Control

[Colpy]

Soooo...your basing your fears of kids on Toronto subways by how they...look?? Let me guess, because a kid wears a hat sideways or has a mowahk or something, he is automatically a trouble maker who won't listen to laws?? Hmmmm. Sooo...protecting the farm? From what? Who? And...hunting? What, we don't have enough food in our overstuffed grocery stores that we need to keep blowing away animals in the wild...because there is hardly ANY outside pressures on their lives and habitats as it is.

First of all, snfu 73, Thanks for the compliment in an earlier post.

And I'm going to try to answer some points from a number of posts......

First of all, you ask where did I get the idea that the right to keep and bear arms is the cornerstone of individual rights and democracy?

From John Locke, the 17th century philosopher on whose ideas much of our free society are built. From William Blackstone, the acknowledged father of English Common Law. From the Magna Carta and the rights of landed gentry, since become the rights of the common man. From the English Bill of Rights of 1689, part of our constitution. From the first revolutionary constitution, the US Constitution. And on and on.

Secondly, why should the gov't trust me with guns? The question should be, why should I trust the gov't so much I surrender my right to be armed? Governments murdered hundreds of millions of peple in the last century..........gov't is "like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearsome master" that should always be kept in check by an armed population.

As an answer to the above question, I'm 52 years old, no history of mental illness, no criminal record, I've been around guns my whole life, I used to instruct the Federal Firearms Safety Course (until they insulted me), I make my living carrying a handgun and teaching the practice and the legal ramifications of armed self-defense to armoured car guards, and I am a citizen.............

As for hunting, I will never understand the logic (if any) behind the idea that it is better, and morally superior to hire somebody to kill a cow that has never been free to get your store bought steak, than it is to take game in fair chase. Doesn't make sense to me. Need to hunt? Probably not, if you don't mind lots of predators losing their fear of man, and you don't mind huge deer populations becoming an increasing nuisance, and you don't mind a society becoming increasing urbanized, sanitized, and of "one mind", and you don't mind wiping out a several billion dollar a year industry in this country.........all of which I do mind.

That's all I got the energy for in this post.........

By the way, I've also headed up a gun club, and know hundreds of legitimate shooters..........not one of which has ever suffered so much as a scratch from any firearm.

Everybody I know that owns an ATV has been hurt on them.

I don't see what the big deal is with guns.

 

[folcar]

The registry is simply a first step at gun control. It is piecemeal and poorly thought out, not because it is unnecessary, but because it is not enough. The money of course was spent creating the infrastructure for the database and in hiring the many people to make it work. The money was only wasted because people illegally chose not to register their guns, had people voluntarily registered there would be no waste. However, the gun registry does not go far enough to remove guns from the public. An actual solution must do much more than what the gun registry would have done.

Billions have been wasted on a registry, that could have been handled by simply providing a series of forms to the police station that requested the following of existing owners. All the essential personal information, the number of firearms, make model, and serial numbers of the firearms (including calibre). And the forms could then be faxed or mailed to the database holding facility, all information would be then entered into the computers. With the hard copies of information stored seperately as a backup. This should not have cost billions, hell i could have organized the whole thing on my home computer and stored it all via text files. For a couple of bucks i could have a programmer friend write a program to help me organize it quickly and neatly. And at the local used office goods store i can get a tone of file cabinents real cheap. The argument of government that this whole thing cost this much because of administrative costs is rediculous!!!!

Be very afraid when the few try to disarm the many.

Free men go armed, slaves do not.

Study your history to any who do not believe these words are true, human history and even modern times are no stranger to these tactics and there outcomes. Power and those who seek it's lure have done a great deal of population enslavement, commited acts of great evil and left there mark on the world. The founding fathers of the US vowed never to be enslaved again that is why the right to own arms was included in there constitution, because they realized one of history's greates lessons. Abosulute power, absolutely corrupts. And if the people are unarmed it is far easier for someone to rise to that level. I am not a big fan of guns but i am not opposed to people owning them, the right to self defense and the tools to do so are everyone's right.

 

[Zzarchov]

Hmmmm. Sooo...protecting the farm? From what? Who? And...hunting? What, we don't have enough food in our overstuffed grocery stores that we need to keep blowing away animals in the wild...because there is hardly ANY outside pressures on their lives and habitats as it is.

1.) Most of the food "stuffing" the super markets come from overproducing factory farms. Not the rural farm which needs a gun to scare of Coyotes (and they do, they have hard enough time as is).

I personally prefer to eat hunted meat over grocery store meat because it is more humane. Wild animals live a good life, and are well aware of the concept of being hunted. Shooting a wild turkey (with lisence) is perfectly humane, and seeing as how we screwed up the food system by slaughtering predators, its needed to ensure stability.

Compare that with "grocery store" poultry, where they are crammed shoulder to shoulder and have their beak removed, never moving or seeing sunlight...

I personally think we need more hunting, less factory farms.


To get back to gun control: Most important issue:

Anyone you trust with a vote, to decide who should run the country..and whether or not we should elect a genocidal dictator into power...

Should be trusted to own a firearm. Don't disallow a firearm to anyone you do not also disallow a vote.

 

[ottawabill]

First of all, snfu 73, Thanks for the compliment in an earlier post.

And I'm going to try to answer some points from a number of posts......

First of all, you ask where did I get the idea that the right to keep and bear arms is the cornerstone of individual rights and democracy?

From John Locke, the 17th century philosopher on whose ideas much of our free society are built. From William Blackstone, the acknowledged father of English Common Law. From the Magna Carta and the rights of landed gentry, since become the rights of the common man. From the English Bill of Rights of 1689, part of our constitution. From the first revolutionary constitution, the US Constitution. And on and on.

Secondly, why should the gov't trust me with guns? The question should be, why should I trust the gov't so much I surrender my right to be armed? Governments murdered hundreds of millions of peple in the last century..........gov't is "like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearsome master" that should always be kept in check by an armed population.

As an answer to the above question, I'm 52 years old, no history of mental illness, no criminal record, I've been around guns my whole life, I used to instruct the Federal Firearms Safety Course (until they insulted me), I make my living carrying a handgun and teaching the practice and the legal ramifications of armed self-defense to armoured car guards, and I am a citizen.............

As for hunting, I will never understand the logic (if any) behind the idea that it is better, and morally superior to hire somebody to kill a cow that has never been free to get your store bought steak, than it is to take game in fair chase. Doesn't make sense to me. Need to hunt? Probably not, if you don't mind lots of predators losing their fear of man, and you don't mind huge deer populations becoming an increasing nuisance, and you don't mind a society becoming increasing urbanized, sanitized, and of "one mind", and you don't mind wiping out a several billion dollar a year industry in this country.........all of which I do mind.

That's all I got the energy for in this post.........

By the way, I've also headed up a gun club, and know hundreds of legitimate shooters..........not one of which has ever suffered so much as a scratch from any firearm.

Everybody I know that owns an ATV has been hurt on them.

I don't see what the big deal is with guns.

Nice post Colpy, btw hope your feeling back to normal!!

Like so many other issues it becomes a blind band wagon approach. with followers chanting " guns kill people" without knowing anything else about the issue....Guns kill, that's enough for them. dON'T NEED TO HEAR ANYMORE..LALALALALA....

Yes guns kill, so do cars, planes and too much beer, but they are also quite useful. Unfortunately in Canada most people live in large cities where all that see is guns committing crimes. The see no other purpose. So they scream loudly to have the guns removed from the streets, but where they fall is having no understanding that streets are the only place guns don't really belong. Lumping together assualt weapons and uzi's with rifles and shot guns is rediculous...

but we all seem to constantly do this....guns, sun exposure, germs, smoking..etc etc alway an all or nothing way..with us or against us.....

 

[snfu73]

1.) Most of the food "stuffing" the super markets come from overproducing factory farms. Not the rural farm which needs a gun to scare of Coyotes (and they do, they have hard enough time as is).

I personally prefer to eat hunted meat over grocery store meat because it is more humane. Wild animals live a good life, and are well aware of the concept of being hunted. Shooting a wild turkey (with lisence) is perfectly humane, and seeing as how we screwed up the food system by slaughtering predators, its needed to ensure stability.

Compare that with "grocery store" poultry, where they are crammed shoulder to shoulder and have their beak removed, never moving or seeing sunlight...

I personally think we need more hunting, less factory farms.


To get back to gun control: Most important issue:

Anyone you trust with a vote, to decide who should run the country..and whether or not we should elect a genocidal dictator into power...

Should be trusted to own a firearm. Don't disallow a firearm to anyone you do not also disallow a vote.

The first point...yes...I do agree...to...an extent. It's a complicated issue...our whole food obtaining issue. My problem is with the very fact that we exert so much pressure on nature as it is...that further putting that pressure on nature...bothers me and scares me and leads me to wonder what lies in the future for the wildlife that exists on earth. As far as factory farms...you are VERY right. I agree with you completely. I do think that people have to have more control over their food sources and what is contained in their food. What I am concerned about, like I said is, that not only is hunting a pressure on wildlife, but mining, oil work, forestry, urbanization or urban sprawl, pollution, it goes on and on. THEN, on top of it...people shoot the animals. So, there is a little bit of pressure there. So, that is part of the reason that I am very against hunting. But, we do have to eat, and I am aware of that, and aware of the complicated issue related around this.

Okay...on to the next point...where was I...ummm...right coyotes...eating livestock. Not saying it isn't an issue...but I am saying that I feel there are better ways to handle it then, again, blowing away wildlife, and in this case, more needlessly. Like I said, if you stick a cow in a pen in coyote country...wellll...you knoooowwww. But, I think there are things like electrical fences, sound waves...uh...what else...other sorts of deterents that can be used aside from guns.

As far as democracy and the role of gun in a democracy....well, we all have our ideas and our theories. I disagree with the idea that the gun is the cornerstone of our democracy...no matter who has stated it. I feel that the corner stone of democracy is respect, understand, working together, using minds instead of guns...in fact, in order to not have a society ruled by the gun.

We live in a good country. I understand a bit of what you folks are saying in regards to the government. However, I don't believe that I am nearly as cynical as you guys. I have a lot more faith in the system that we have created in this country and feel that we have a good number of safeguards instilled to protect our democracy. The system we have is a good system. There are risks, as with any system, but I feel that part of the reason we have created the society we have created is to be able to HAVE faith and trust in the government and our fellow citizens. Frankly, and I know that you guys won't be happy when I say this, but you sound like, well, a group of...militants, in a way...like I wonder what part of Montana you are writing from. I know, I know, that came across as harsh, and in some ways...well...it is. But, I think this is what I fear...this vigilantist sorta attitude...the almost paranoid, always looking over ones shoulder, needing to be armed to face off against some invisible enemy. That worries me, and that's part of why I fear guns...because if someone is expressing these ideas...these concepts, that are scary concepts...and is fighting so hard to maintain their weapons no matter what...well, I hope you folks might understand why others may be concerned, and want further controls on weapons?

Okayyyy...now...were else am I. Why are people so darn scared of guns? Well...their guns. They do kill. They allow people to kill from great different, with great force, and with great ease. That's worriesome. Bullets leave guns at very fast speeds...you may already know this. A majority of the time, the bullets go where intended. Other times....well...those other times are worrisome. Where would a stray bullet end up? That's worriesome. Guns are powerful weapons...and they are designed to kill...were as cars, planes, trains, whatever...aren't...but can. So, yes, there is a stigma...but again, is there a way to make you understand how powerful this stigma is? Maybe gun owners have to start listening to the anti gun side and start communicating better to decrease the stigma. At the same time, the stigma gets further and further increased when people do associate guns with behaviour and ideas that are...scary...like anti government feelings, like severe right wing ideas, like homophobia, sexism, racism and general bigotry. THAT scares me a lot...when I run across someone who is very tied to their guns who also has a hate on for gays, blacks and homeless folks...that worries me...and rightly so. And there are plenty of people out there who do have these ideals and attitudes who are armed...and you can't blame folks for not feeling to comfortable about that, especially if they happened to be in one of these groups. So...the fight is on. And, yah, people do get fearful by folks who do seem very obsessed with their guns and their vision that they have the absolute right to have these things and that nothing is going to stand in their way. And...why this extreme approach for guns, but not for other issues as much...well, that just further helps to perpetuate the idea that some gun owners are...frankly...gun nuts! So, if your concerned about the image of gun owners and how that is affecting how non gun owners look at guns...well...these might be a few reasons.

Can other things kill? You bet...all kinds of things kill. Can you blame people from wanting to tackle what they see as threats...either as percieved..or in reality? Can you blame people from looking at a gun, knowing that it was designed to kill, no matter WHAT the gun is...except maybe the water variety...and wanting to fight like heck against these in society...and especially make sure they don't end up LEGALLY in the hands of people who scare the living crap out of them with some of their rhetoric? Can't say I blame anyone. There are lots of people who have guns legally, but...should they?

So...what else...oh so much...I'll end it here...but I have to take a look at colpy's post again.

 

[Zzarchov]

About the coyotes:
No matter what you do, you need to kill the coyotes. They don't go after big well protected game because there is plenty of food to be had. Even if the fences would keep the buggers out, which they don't, either they kill your livestock or they starve to death. And that is natural, animals go through a population cycle, and at the bust end of that is mass starvations. Thats when Coyotes attack, if they don't get your livestock they will either starve or go after anything else, people, pets, you name it. Desperation does that. Again, that is purely natural, all creatures (even man though we refuse to do anything about it) go through a population cycle.



And about gun ownership, you are missing what I am saying:

If you cannot trust someone with the ability to shoot you without them ACTUALLY shooting you, and you assume they are not responsible enough to hold onto a gun safely and ensure it is not stolen... Which hey, you would be valid in thinking that..

You should also strip the right to vote away from that person. Anyone entrusted with the power of a vote, should be allowed a gun. Not as a pre-requisite, but because you have no good reason to keep it from them.

If you do have a reason to keep it from them specifically, then by all means never let them touch a gun again, but they also are not then responsible enough for a vote.

So im all for gun control, as strict as you feel it needs to be. But anyone you do not think can be trusted with a gun (however strict you draw that line) should also not be trusted with a vote, which is far more powerful, and in the end does cause more deaths.