Gun Control

[Tim Hamilton]

I don't see it as just harrasment. I see it as a good idea. It came to a larger cost than expected, BUT it created jobs in the job starved maritimes, it needed contracts for everything from paper to administrative related duties, etc...in other words...it helped people, it gave jobs, it provided incomes that were then again taxed, AND, although not the end all and be all, it was more useful than the pro gun crowd likes to admit.

So your argument in favor of the registry now is that it is a make-work project? Are you completely delusional? You could justify just about any government program conceivable on the basis that it costs money. Let's create a bureau of phone quality checkers; they can roam the country making sure everyone has a phone of high quality. It won't accomplish a damn thing, but hey, it'll create work that doesn't need to be done so it must be a great idea!

The idea that this type of spending is beneficial is hilariously ignorant. I would suggest you take some basic economics courses to see why taxing people to give tax money to people so you can tax them again accomplishes nothing.

Creating jobs is only significant because they create wealth. When the wealth created by a job isn't actually created but shuffled over from someone else, you have ZERO economic gain and an economic LOSS associated with the overhead required to facilitate the shuffling.

The money spent on that registry could have been spent on healthcare, education or any number of things that would have created jobs AND provided a benefit to the community. The registry created jobs but provided no benefit at all. It was a complete waste of money that accomplished nothing.

 

[Colpy]

So...you have a license....you are found with a gun...everything is cool...but what if it is someone elses gun? Say it is your gun that has been stolen from your house? And so, no one with a license commits a crime with a gun? The gun registry makes sure that the person who bought the gun has the gun, and if anyone else has the gun...there is another way that a non legit gun owner can be busted, furthering the chances of being persecuted. Furthermore, cops liked the registry because it gave them a little more information when they would go out to, say, a domestic dispute call...they can check the database and see if there is a gun registered to that address, or to the person who is involved or what have you.

I don't see it as just harrasment. I see it as a good idea. It came to a larger cost than expected, BUT it created jobs in the job starved maritimes, it needed contracts for everything from paper to administrative related duties, etc...in other words...it helped people, it gave jobs, it provided incomes that were then again taxed, AND, although not the end all and be all, it was more useful than the pro gun crowd likes to admit. I think even if it saved the life of a pro gun owners own mother, they would still complain about it.

Unfortunately, what you say is simply not true. First of all, at least 10%, and perhaps as many as 25% of the firearms held by decent people in this country have NOT been registered. That is why there is a continuing amnesty, and why they are still registering guns no questions asked. Compliance by gun owners has simply not been at a level that would make the system effective, on the doubtful assumption that making the system effective is even possible........see below.

Secondly, you assume, as do most of the uninformed, that an officer can call up the registry and enter a serial number, which will tell him who owns that firearm.

NOPE!

As I explained earlier, this is simply not possible. Too many incompetents in the bureaucracy, too many firearms with the same serial number, too many mistakes in the registry, and the computers simply won't do it. Waste of time.

I live in New Brunswick. Tell you what, if you want to do a make-work project, I have a large back yard. Why don't you just hire 100 folks to dig a ditch, and 100 more to come along behind and fill it in, and leave me the phuck alone otherwise.

GEEZUS!

My patience is tested when it come to wasting my money on useless list-making, and the support of a law that is unconstitutional in a number of ways............and through which people can be jailed for years for not maintaining the proper paper-work. Talk about a police state!

Under the Firearms Act:

Search warrants are DIRECTED to be issued when there is no evidence of any crime even having been committed. So much for the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure.

You can get two years in jail for failing to aid an officer searching your home, including answering all his questions. So much for the right to remain silent.

You must prove you have licenses and registrations for your firearms. So much for the right to be assumed innocent.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DEFENDING?

 

[snfu73]

What is your point? This has nothing to do with gun control, the gun registry, or any of the other issues that have been raised in regards to this subject. Try sticking to the topic and not rambling on about completely irrelevant issues.



And all the arguments you have put forth have been easily refuted and proven wrong, yet you still cling to your ridiculous notions and refuse to accept the facts because you don't want to hear them.

Okay....recap....YOU stated that the problem is POVERTY...not guns and whatever. So, I refuted what you said by saying essentially, that, okay, if that is the issue, than what is current government doing to help that. From what I am seeing, it is creating a gap between the rich and the poor...more people are becoming poorer...therefore the issue becomes exasberated. I felt that what I said was perfectly on topic and direct response to your statement.

 

[snfu73]

Unfortunately, what you say is simply not true. First of all, at least 10%, and perhaps as many as 25% of the firearms held by decent people in this country have NOT been registered. That is why there is a continuing amnesty, and why they are still registering guns no questions asked. Compliance by gun owners has simply not been at a level that would make the system effective, on the doubtful assumption that making the system effective is even possible........see below.

Secondly, you assume, as do most of the uninformed, that an officer can call up the registry and enter a serial number, which will tell him who owns that firearm.

NOPE!

As I explained earlier, this is simply not possible. Too many incompetents in the bureaucracy, too many firearms with the same serial number, too many mistakes in the registry, and the computers simply won't do it. Waste of time.

I live in New Brunswick. Tell you what, if you want to do a make-work project, I have a large back yard. Why don't you just hire 100 folks to dig a ditch, and 100 more to come along behind and fill it in, and leave me the phuck alone otherwise.

GEEZUS!

My patience is tested when it come to wasting my money on useless list-making, and the support of a law that is unconstitutional in a number of ways............and through which people can be jailed for years for not maintaining the proper paper-work. Talk about a police state!

Under the Firearms Act:

Search warrants are DIRECTED to be issued when there is no evidence of any crime even having been committed. So much for the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure.

You can get two years in jail for failing to aid an officer searching your home, including answering all his questions. So much for the right to remain silent.

You must prove you have licenses and registrations for your firearms. So much for the right to be assumed innocent.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DEFENDING?

My patience is equally tried by waste of money...but I see that it continues to happen. The liberals had something with the idea of decriminalizing reasonable amount of pot. This would have saved PLENTY of resources and money that could have been used for a variety of things. But, then Harper came in and wiped out that plan. To me...waste of money and time.

Okay...now...this is again meant as an honest question to you...how can two guns have the same serial number? I ask, again, out of genuinly not knowing and wanting to learn.

Do I know what I am defending? I am no expert, I will defenitly grant you that. I am merely another guy in these forums with viewpoints and opinions...who has looked at various sources...but definitly not all there is out there. I think this is an interesting discussion, and in interesting topic...one that has seen it's fair share of debate over time. This is a good way to learn about an issue...you have opposing views to me, and I appreciate that...and can learn from what you state. You are in hold of facts that I might not have...that's the way one learns.

Anyway, I remember back when the conservatives were talking about scrapping the whole gun registry deal. I do remember that one of the arguements put forth by police representatives was the concept of being able to get more information on what guns might be associated with which people through the gun registry. If I am wrong, I am wrong. I will try to look up and see if I can find a reference to that somewhere.

Now...if I get this straight, it also sounds like what you are telling me is that gun owners themselves have done everything to thwart the gun registry? I hear that people do not like it, that they think it is a waste of time, etc...but is it really? Did folks give it the chance it deserved? I don't believe so...and in such case, probably helped to drive up the costs. Just speculation of course....an idea to think about.

I dunno...I just want to jump into any car I want and drive whenever and whereever at any speed...but, the damn government keeps harrasing me! What fascist pigs! I'm responsible. It's everyone ELSE that is irresponsible...why should I pay for their irresponsibility. I want to own a nuclear bomb...but again, the damn government keeps harrassing me. I want if for legit purposes...so, what's the problem? I wish they would get off of MY back? Get the guys who would use their nuclear bombs for bad...leave ME alone! I'm a responsible nuclear weapon owning Canadian! I'm tired of this police state that we live in!

I feel that gun owners should be licensed (which they are), the guns should be registered (just like cars are), and that gun owners must have insurance ( so that anyone accidently harmed by a legit gun can get compensation).

Anyway...what IS a legit reason to have a gun? Why all the concern? How do you feel your life would be negatively impacted if you DIDN'T have a gun...or couldn't have a gun? Why are you fighting so hard over these objects? Why this issue and not others? Why are you not complaining about..I dunno...whatever...something else? Why is this such a thorn in so many peoples sides? And it really is...sometimes it seems like a obsessiveness on the part of the pro gun crowd over their weapons (and that is what they are...they are designed to kill)? Where does this come from? Why is it so?

 

[snfu73]

What is your point? This has nothing to do with gun control, the gun registry, or any of the other issues that have been raised in regards to this subject. Try sticking to the topic and not rambling on about completely irrelevant issues.



And all the arguments you have put forth have been easily refuted and proven wrong, yet you still cling to your ridiculous notions and refuse to accept the facts because you don't want to hear them.

To the second part...this IS a conversation...is it not? I don't believe all of my ideas or arguements have been refuted, however, if you wish to compile it all into an essay and prove to me that every argument that I put forth on this issue HAS been refuted, completely, 100 percent, then I will read it. In the meantime, I will continue with this conversation...one that I find interesting...and one that I am learning a great deal from...which is, to me, the whole point of a conversation like this.

 

[folcar]

Gun control only works against law abiding citizens and that is a fact, as any carreer criminal is never going to register his weapons. It is also effective in letting the criminal know if he is taking part in home invasions or car jacking type crimes that most of the public he is victimizing is unarmed. The gun registry has only been effective in one area, a whole bunch of un-elected beaurocrats have got filthy stinking rich off something that should have never been passed into legislation.

 

[s243a]

Gun control only works against law abiding citizens.

Most criminals are law abiding at one point in their life. It is a tough argument to prove. Can we really estimate the number of people that have guns that might use them to shoot someone while committing a crime. Anyway, I am probably in the minority but I really don't care about gun control. It is just a tradeoff between liberty and freedom. I'm not convinced one way or the other.

 

[folcar]

I for one am not crazy about gun control, any true blooded criminal will never abide by it, and enforcing it as we have seen is an expensive and wastefull proposition that has proven fruitless so far.

 

[s243a]

I for one am not crazy about gun control, any true blooded criminal will never abide by it, and enforcing it as we have seen is an expensive and wastefull proposition that has proven fruitless so far.

I don't buy the expensive argument. It is just a database why does it need to be that expensive?

 

[snfu73]

I for one am not crazy about gun control, any true blooded criminal will never abide by it, and enforcing it as we have seen is an expensive and wastefull proposition that has proven fruitless so far.

Well...then that is..okay...that is kinda how the system works. If you don't comply, the law is against you, and therefore...you are prosecuted. So, not only are you prosecuted for the crime, you will have the additional issue of a gun that has been unregistered, or not legit being used in the crime, or if not used in the crime per say, being...I dunno...something. Anyway, the point is, the person has an extra charge to face.

What is a true blooded criminal anyway? I still go back to what I think is an important point, although I know colpy doesn't agree, that it further helps to differenciate between those who are so called legit gun owners and those who are not so legit. If you are abiding by the law and registering your gun, etc...you are differentiating yourself from someone who is doing illegal activities. If someone is not registering their weapon because, say, they want to do harm with it, or want to do some bad stuff with it, the chances of that weapon being removed from that persons possession increase before the person does harm for it...no? I mean, this is the way I am interpreting things. It seems very logical to me.

 

[Tim Hamilton]

Okay....recap....YOU stated that the problem is POVERTY...not guns and whatever. So, I refuted what you said by saying essentially, that, okay, if that is the issue, than what is current government doing to help that. From what I am seeing, it is creating a gap between the rich and the poor...more people are becoming poorer...therefore the issue becomes exasberated. I felt that what I said was perfectly on topic and direct response to your statement.

You're missing the point. I'm pointing out that gun control/gun registries are useless because it is poverty - not guns - that creates gun crime. You are continuing to advocate various methods of gun control while seemingly acknowledging that poverty is the real issue.

If you want to complain about poverty/gun crime, go ahead, but it makes no sense to do it while advocating laws that will do nothing to reduce them.

 

[snfu73]

You're missing the point. I'm pointing out that gun control/gun registries are useless because it is poverty - not guns - that creates gun crime. You are continuing to advocate various methods of gun control while seemingly acknowledging that poverty is the real issue.

If you want to complain about poverty/gun crime, go ahead, but it makes no sense to do it while advocating laws that will do nothing to reduce them.

Your talking in circles dude. I get the point...I don't think you get the point I made! If the solution, as you say, is to limit poverty as a method of bringing down crime, then the conservative government is doing a lousy job. That was how I was responding to your earlier point.

You keep talking about laws that do nothing about gun crime...which laws do you mean in particular and how do you feel that they are failing? What is the current government doing to change that? What do you think can be done to change it? What is the answer in your mind? How can you put the minds of millions of canadians at ease about guns and their impact on society?

 

[Vicious]

says the man named VICIOUS!!!!??? That's a law abiding gun owners name if I ever saw one. Yes...give that guy named VICIOUS a gun...we ALL will feel safe...you bet.

I think so called 'liberal" policies are more about being proactive, then having dead bodies...and THEN acting. I like the idea of a problem being tackled before people end up dead.

Someone who calls himself snfu73 doesn't know who Sid Vicious is? Sad.

Oh yeah - I don't own a gun. In fact they scare the sh*t out of me. But I don't seek to ban things I don't like.

Maybe you should ask questions first and shoot later, Mr Chi Pig.

Liberals are proactive.:roll: They are poll watchers at best. When did the gun registry come to be before the massacre at the Ecole PolyTechnique or after? Did the gun registry stop the massacre at Dawson Collage

 

[TenPenny]

You're missing the point. I'm pointing out that gun control/gun registries are useless because it is poverty - not guns - that creates gun crime.

That's got to be close to the strangest comment yet in this thread.

I can't imagine how you'd try to back that up with a straight face.

 

[snfu73]

Someone who calls himself snfu73 doesn't know who Sid Vicious is? Sad.

Oh yeah - I don't own a gun. In fact they scare the sh*t out of me. But I don't seek to ban things I don't like.

Maybe you should ask questions first and shoot later, Mr Chi Pig.

Liberals are proactive.:roll: They are poll watchers at best. When did the gun registry come to be before the massacre at the Ecole PolyTechnique or after? Did the gun registry stop the massacre at Dawson Collage

Ohhhh....sid vicious...ya...cause that was COMPLETELY obvious there. Uh huh.

Anyhoo...like I have said before, the gun registry is not the end all and be all. I still feel it is, was, whatever, not the horrid idea that the pro gun folks like to make it out to be. I feel that it offered many advantages, and offered tools to help make sure that legit guns stayed with the legit gunowners who purchased those guns...although what a legit gun owner is, I dunno. I think the incidents at Dawson College or Ecole PolyTechnique are more complicated than just about guns...they are also about mental illness. I think that is an issue that needs serious addressing in our society, but too often does not get the attention it deserves...or the understanding. The gun registry may have not prevented a mass shooting...but, licensing and registration of vehicles does not help in preventing someone mowing down a schoolyard full of children with their cars either. BUT...the laws that are in effect around the ownership and use of vehicles is important, it is necessary, and it works on a number of other levels...regarding safety, theft, security, and order.

So, what exactly is the conservative government doing to prevent incidents like the ones at Dawson College?

Plus, again, I must point out, I am not a liberal party supporter. I have never voted for them.

 

[L Gilbert]

Do you realize that most people that commit gun crimes are the ones that have Conservative beliefs?

And your evidence for that is.........?

Every gun should be registered long, short, zip, whatever it all should be registered.

But there's no way that every firearm will be registerd. Criminals don't want to do that.

This is another important tool that help police solve the crimes faster.

Only if the crime was perped by someone who used a registered gun.

This in itself is a deterrent.

lmao. Gun registry is a deterrent for people who think the thing is silly, also. How many people in Canada haven't registered all of their firearms? How many people in Canada registered hair dryers, water pistols, paint strippers, pellet guns, etc.?

If you own a gun in Canada it has to be kept in a secure area of the home.

Yep. The cougar that's tearing my chicken coop to pieces to eat my chickens will sit there and wait while I wake up, get britches on, find keys, unlock and open gun cabinet, get gun, unlock and open ammo bin, load firearm, find flashlight, slip into footwear, turn lights on , and go out to shoot him.

Handguns have to be kept in a gun safe.

I don't know where you've been but firearms of any kind in Canada have to be kept under lock and key. But criminals don't do that.

The national gun registry is worth the investment because it takes criminals off the street which means the gun crime comes down.

Yeah, we all know that the first people to have their guns registered were the criminals.

The government should go one step further and charge gun makers that made the guns that were used in crime that killed people.

:roll:Then they'd have to charge the ammo makers (who, BTW, also manufacture other valuable items), they'd have to charge auto manufacturers because people kill others with cars, they'd have to charge knife manufacturers, pipe manufacturers, baseball bat manufacturers, pharmaceutical companies, etc. Anyone who wants to kill someone doesn't necessarily have to use a firearm. :roll:

If the gun makers were made responsible for the deaths that their guns cause then they would be more motivated to keep better records of who bought their guns.

The records are available from the manufacturers. It's some of the individual store owners who buy from the manufacturers that sometimes don't keep data correctly.

 

[Vicious]

Ohhhh....sid vicious...ya...cause that was COMPLETELY obvious there. Uh huh.

It may be less obvious since I let my avatar drop away. But it speaks volumes about how you are quick to judge.

I dunno. I think the incidents at Dawson College or Ecole PolyTechnique are more complicated than just about guns...they are also about mental illness.

Bingo. Do you think the money pissed away on the gun registry might be better spent on screening gun licence applicants (the people who wish to buy guns) for mental illness?

The gun registry may have not prevented a mass shooting...but, licensing and registration of vehicles does not help in preventing someone mowing down a schoolyard full of children with their cars either.

I agree with you 100% but I'd have said it this way: Expecting gun registration to prevent mass murders is as ludicrous as expecting vehicle registration to prevent someone from running over pedestrians with their car.

So, what exactly is the conservative government doing to prevent incidents like the ones at Dawson College?

I believe stockwell day has proposed a face-toface evaluation of the person requesting a gun ownership certificate.
And unless you are purposely avoiding the news (tv, radio and papers) you probably already know about the manditory minimum sentances the conservatives have proposed for crimes involving guns.

I now understand why you come across as so angry. You are going through a life change. In your heart you still believe you are a punk loving radical, but your brain is starting to tell you that you are a conservative (small c). You don't have to trade your 'If You Swear You Will Catch No Fish' LP (their best in my opinion) in for a suit and tie to be a conservative....

I have it cranked now:
'I pride my record collection, it's the only thing in life to do
But my dad insists they're evil things with satanic messages in their grooves...'

 

[TenPenny]

I agree with you 100% but I'd have said it this way: Expecting gun registration to prevent mass murders is as ludicrous as expecting vehicle registration to prevent someone from running over pedestrians with their car.

I agree completely, and therefore I think we need to eliminate motor vehicle registration.

 

[snfu73]

It may be less obvious since I let my avatar drop away. But it speaks volumes about how you are quick to judge.



Bingo. Do you think the money pissed away on the gun registry might be better spent on screening gun licence applicants (the people who wish to buy guns) for mental illness?



I agree with you 100% but I'd have said it this way: Expecting gun registration to prevent mass murders is as ludicrous as expecting vehicle registration to prevent someone from running over pedestrians with their car.



I believe stockwell day has proposed a face-toface evaluation of the person requesting a gun ownership certificate.
And unless you are purposely avoiding the news (tv, radio and papers) you probably already know about the manditory minimum sentances the conservatives have proposed for crimes involving guns.

I now understand why you come across as so angry. You are going through a life change. In your heart you still believe you are a punk loving radical, but your brain is starting to tell you that you are a conservative (small c). You don't have to trade your 'If You Swear You Will Catch No Fish' LP (their best in my opinion) in for a suit and tie to be a conservative....

I have it cranked now:
'I pride my record collection, it's the only thing in life to do
But my dad insists they're evil things with satanic messages in their grooves...'

So, who is going to do these face to face interviews again? What training will be required? What are the costs associated with it? Stiffer sentencing, eh? So, we fill up jails...that's the answer? In the US, the concept of the death penalty is used to "deter" crime. The top ten states for violent crime and murder also happen to be death penalty states. Why wait until someone has done wrong and then toss them in jail? Why not be proactive and have better control over firearms within the country before we fill jails up? Filling up jails is also a costly venture, by the way. And....um...what other points was I gonna make there...I can't remember....but I'm sure it was something brilliant...

...oh, and they ARE evil things with satanic messages...that's what makes them so damn GOOD...

 

[Vicious]

So, who is going to do these face to face interviews again? What training will be required?

Excellent questions. So we agree that the concept is sound and we're just haggling over the details?

What are the costs associated with it?

Less than $2 Billion

Stiffer sentencing, eh? So, we fill up jails...that's the answer?

This is the part that always makes me scratch my head about the left. They wouldn't want to inconvenience the criminals with any nasty jail time. No the left all of a sudden get's concerned about the costs of the prison system. Or the fact that the criminal might have low self-esteem when they are finally released from the prison system. Let's not worry about the people he's killed having a right not to be killed. So in short that's the answer fill the jails instead of letting the killers walk the streets free.

In the US...

There are 190+ countries in the world. Switzerland is one look up their gun laws and gun crime stats.

Why not be proactive and have better control over firearms within the country before we fill jails up?

When is the appropriate time to lock up the criminals? Assault with a weapon? Armed robbery? One murder? Two? Three? Somewhere after the first offence but just before he gets around to you I would imagine.