Good manner and morale in the Quran

[Omicron]

Patronism​

The patronism is the answer.

All these three major religious sects practice this patronism: i.e. they adopt many patrons: their Jewish sages, Christian saints and Muslim imams & sheikhs as patrons in stead of God alone as the True Patron.

They believe in idea and practice that such saint is the one that will protect them and defend them in various situations and offer to them all their needs --> and by this way they fall in the enthusiasm and associating that saint with God Almighty in their worship and glorification (while such worship should exclusively be to God alone without associate.)
http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/Saints/patrons.asp


The same is true about the sages of Jews like now: Bar Yohaia grave, and the grave of Rachel mother of Prophet Joseph and Benjamin his brother; they call her: their mother, and resort to her (particularly women with difficult labor, or have many needs that they may write on some paper and cast it inside the shrine of Rachel mother of the believers.)

Uh huh... so how come all your interpretations of the Quran come from Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly? That is Patronism in its most blatant form.

Has it ever occurred to you to actually crack the Quran and read it for yourself?

In case you didn't know, Mohammed had a lot to say, in spite of being from a business family.

What was the number one gripe of Mohammed? He hate hate hated animistic polythism.

What did he do at the final end of his mission? He smashed all the idols in that big black cube, and then he died.

His whole life was about knocking animistic polytheism out of the brains of Arabs.

What happened after he finally smashed the idols in the black-cube after he re-took Mecca? A little bit later he died. Mission accomplished.

And so what did Arabs do once they had some social organization? They went conquering.

They were social misfits who got squeezed into the sandy bad-lands, but now they had social organization, whereupon the only thing they could think to do was go conquering.

Monstrously violent dicks who loved cutting off heads... spreading the religion and then got perplexed when it got hijacked by Persians and Turks.

Then the Mongolian catastrophe hit Persia, which is tragic, because Persians are one of the world's fundamental people, whom God loves and to whom get given their own planet in the afterlife, and now you're sitting there in your room sapping your head over the writings of Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.

How about if it be targeted the relations between bad Christian corporate crap and evil pieces of Muslim business bullsh!t?

Suppose we work on throttling down the bad businessman on our side, and you work on holding down the bad ones on yours?

I offered you a trade agreement. If you don't know anyone who sells good Persian carpets in exchange for world's best lamb, then I'm going to go somewhere else. I bet I could trade good lamb for presence on Russian space stations.

The way of "devotion to God alone" is the true way.
But the faith alone is not enough; it should be accompanied by righteous work; so that man may be saved and prosper in Heaven or Paradise.

Will you please stop reciting lines out of the Quran like a parrot and actually read it?

Stop embarrassing your religion.

Whatever happened to the days when Baghdad was the center of intellectual civilization?

Remember that?

Did you know if it wasn't for that, the west wouldn't know about Socrates and Plato?

 

[eanassir]

Uh huh... so how come all your interpretations of the Quran come from Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly? That is Patronism in its most idiotically blatant form.

Uh huh ...
I told you and tell you once again he is the guide to the way of God alone without associate or patron.
This is not the patronism: the patronism is to ask your need from the patron saint, to depend on the patron saint, to expend alms for the sake of the patron saint or imam, to put trust in the dead patron who went to his Lord after his death, and to hope in this patron to protect and bless you ... this is the patronism.

While the late interpreter is only the teacher, he had hypertension and died, he ate food and drink water and fruit juice; he had tremor of which he was cured after doing sport excercises; he had prostatic hypertrophy and allergy maybe.

He had nothing to do with giving us our needs or defending us following his death.
We only follow his instructions depended on the God's revelations.

And this is in the Quran 4: 80
مَّنْ يُطِعِ الرَّسُولَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللّهَ وَمَن تَوَلَّى فَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ عَلَيْهِمْ حَفِيظًا

The explanation:
(Whoso obeys the messenger [and is ready to fight in the way of God], obeys God [because the messenger works according to the command of God.] But whoso turns away [from him and does not fight, We shall punish him;] then We have not sent you [Mohammed] to protect them [from the punishment.]

They say: "Compliance [to you, Mohammed!]" But when they sally forth from you, a party of them decide by night something else than that [compliance] which they say [to you;] but [the angels of] God write down that which they decide by night. Then turn away from them [and do not wait for them to fight together with you] and put your trust in God; God suffices as a Trustee.)

Has it ever occurred to you to actually crack the Quran and read it for yourself?

Have you done such a thing: to study the Quran before saying any such bad words?

In case you didn't notice, Mohammed had a lot to say, in spite of being from a business-striving -to-be-capitalist (opposite of pure Christianity) family.

What is this? Is working in lawful way forbidden by God?

What was the number one gripe of Mohammed? He hate hate hated animistic polythism.

What did he do at the final end of his mission? He smashed all the idols in that big black cube, and then he died.

His whole life was about knocking animistic polytheism out of the brains of Arabs.

What happened after he finally smashed the idols in the black-cube after he re-took Mecca? A little bit later he died. Mission accomplished.


And so what did Arabs do once they had some social organization? They went conquering.

They were social misfits who got squeezed into the bad-lands like Agfhanis, and now they had some social organization, whereupon the only thing they could think to do was go conquering.

Monstrously violent dicks who loved cutting off heads... spreading the religion and then got perplexed when it got hijacked by Persians and Turks.

Then the Mongolian catastrophe hits Persia, which is tragic, becaue Persians are one of the world's fundamental people, whom God loves and to whom get given their own planet, and now you're sitting there in your room sapping your head over the writings of Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.


How about if you just target the relations between bad Christian businessmen and evil pieces of Muslim crap coming from your direction?

All this is only rancor issuing from one who knows a good deal of knowledge about the Quran and Prophet Mohammed and the Islam ... and in spite he deliberately disregards many truths and facts.

How about if we the people fight on the side of God, and you fight on the side of Allah, and we ask him in the afterlife if he likes it better if his hair be red or black?

And here you are completely wrong: because God, Allah and Yahweh and other synonyms are the names of the Creator the Almighty and Most Gracious in different languages: Arabic, English, Hebrew and others.

I offered you a trade agreement. If you don't know anyone who sells good Persian carpets in exchange for world's best lamb, then I'm going to go somewhere else. I bet I could trade good lamb for presence on Russian space stations.

You may go to wherever you want, but I am not any tradesman.

Will you please stop repeating lines out of the Quran like a parrot and actually read it?

You keep acting like someone who can't figure out what the message really is.

Stop embarrassing your religion.

This is said to you in fact to study the Quran the authentic word of God that came after the Torah and the Gospel to correct any distortions in the past Bible and to alleviate the statements and rites into something easier and more proper.


This is in the Quran 5: 15-16

يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ قَدْ جَاءكُمْ رَسُولُنَا يُبَيِّنُ لَكُمْ كَثِيرًا مِّمَّا كُنتُمْ تُخْفُونَ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَيَعْفُو عَن كَثِيرٍ قَدْ جَاءكُم مِّنَ اللّهِ نُورٌ وَكِتَابٌ مُّبِينٌ . يَهْدِي بِهِ اللّهُ مَنِ اتَّبَعَ رِضْوَانَهُ سُبُلَ السَّلاَمِ وَيُخْرِجُهُم مِّنِ الظُّلُمَاتِ إِلَى النُّورِ بِإِذْنِهِ وَيَهْدِيهِمْ إِلَى صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ​

The explanation:
(O people of the Bible [:Jews and Christians], now has Our messenger[, Mohammed,] come expounding to you many things in the Bible that you have been hiding, and many things else he disregards. There has come to you light from God and a clear ‘Book’[: the Quran.]

Whereby God guides him who seeks His good pleasure to the paths of safety, and brings them out of darkness to light with His leave, and guides them to a standard path.)


A Call from God to the People of the Scripture [: Jews and Christians]

Whatever happened to the days when Baghdad was the center of intellectual civilization?

Remember that?

Did you know if it wasn't for that, the west wouldn't know about Socrates and Plato?

You are rancorous, micro.
Plato is not an idol; he is one of many philosophers, and similarly is Socrates.

 

[Omicron]

All this is only rancor issuing from one who knows a good deal of knowledge about the Quran and Prophet Mohammed and the Islam ... and in spite he deliberately disregards many truths and facts.

Yeah... well, like I said... what ever happened to the Muslim Academy of Baghdad... the place that was the repository for all knowledge while Europe was going through its dark age?

Something in my heart is breaking about how if I was Massad it would be to use your statements in a propaganda campaign to make Muslims look like Christian cultist idiots worshiping space aliens while committing suicide with toxic Kool Aid.

 

[eanassir]

Yeah... well, like I said... what ever happened to the Muslim Academy of Baghdad... the place that was the repository for all knowledge while Europe was going through its dark age?

Something in my heart is breaking about how if I was Massad it would be to use your statements in a propaganda campaign to make Muslims look like Christian cultist idiots worshiping space aliens while committing suicide with toxic Kool Aid.

Your heart is full of rancor, micro.
If you don't believe me, look to your avatar; you didn't choose other than this one.

 

[Omicron]

Yeah... well, like I said... what ever happened to the Muslim Academy of Baghdad... the place that was the repository for all knowledge while Europe was going through its dark age?

Something in my heart is breaking about how if I was Massad it would be to use your statements in a propaganda campaign to make Muslims look like Christian cultist idiots worshiping space aliens while committing suicide with toxic Kool Aid.

Your heart is full of rancor, micro.
If you don't believe me, look to your avatar; you didn't choose other than this one.

Are you telling me you didn't know that after Mesopotamia was conquered by Muslim warriors that Baghdad was set up to be the center of intellectual life in the know world, and that it's because ancient Greek writings were transcribed into Sanskrit by Muslim scribes that we know today what Plato wrote about the sayings of Socrates?!?

Okee dokee... let's see if you know... how did Muslims get the knowledge of paper-making from Chinese?

 

[eanassir]

O micron,
I don't discriminate people: this is English and that is Arab: anyone that admits God is One without associate and believes in all the prophets including Mohammed --> then he is my brother.

And anyone even Arab or Kurd or German who associates others with God --> then I disown him and quit myself of his words and work.

While paper and industry ..etc, this comes second to the belief and devotion to God alone and believing in all the apostles including Mohammed, and in all the heavenly books including the Quran.

By the way, it is not the Muslim warriors that conquered; it is God that conquered.
I.e. when the Arab believed in God alone and broke up the idols, then God was with them and He gave them the land on a tray of gold: easily without much wars, the empires broke down before them and cities opened their gate to welcome them, and they spread justice and righteousness and served God Almighty and Most Gracious.

But when they fell in the enthusiasm (following the examples of the past nations of Jews and Christians) --> He took all that glory off them, and set on them the Mongols, Christians, Zionists and everyone upon the Earth.

Whenever man is with God, God is with him; and whenever people are with God (worship and glorify Him alone without the patronism or idolatry), God is with them.

www.quran-ayat.com

 

[Cliffy]

So by your reasoning, God must be with the Christian Americans who won the war with Saddam Hussein and the Taliban, who were Muslim. Oh ya, they were associators. Tell you what, if your god is with you, why don't you go over to Iraq and Afghanistan and kick those godless Yankees out of there.

 

[CDNBear]

The last time I heard anyone talking like that was in a cafe near a highschool. 3 boys came in and one was bragging about how many girls he had boinked.

Ya, I figured "High School" was about where he was at way on back with some of his first posts. Despite the claims of being a super start in bed and the Usenets.

 

[Omicron]

By the way, it is not the Muslim warriors that conquered; it is God that conquered.
I.e. when the Arab believed in God alone and broke up the idols, then God was with them and He gave them the land on a tray of gold: easily without much wars, the empires broke down before them and cities opened their gate to welcome them, and they spread justice and righteousness and served God Almighty and Most Gracious.

Oh really. So Muslim Arabs just sauntered up to a city, unarmed, waved a copy of the Quran in the air, and the walls came tumbling down and people came rushing out throwing garlands?

But when they fell in the enthusiasm (following the examples of the past nations of Jews and Christians) --> He took all that glory off them, and set on them the Mongols, Christians, Zionists and everyone upon the Earth.

*Groan*... you're sounding like those Americans enamored with Fox News and those Canadians' who'd vote for a Stockwell Day... everybody lobotomize themselves and start reading scriptures in simplistically violent terms.

Anyway, the way the west got paper from China was that at the Battle of Talas, 200,000 Abbasids attacked a forced of 10,000 Tang Chinese and 20,000 Karluk mercenaries, and the Karluk merceneries realized they were outnumbered almost ten to one, so they switched sides in the middle of the battle because they figured they'd get better treatment if they were on the winning side, and so 220,000 Abbisids and Karluk mercenaries crushed 10,000 Tang Chinese, who got away with 2000 survivors...

But not all Chinese survivors escaped... a few prisoners of war knew how to make paper, which was a Chinese trade secret, so they were taken to Samarkand and ordered to start making paper and show the Abbasids how it was done, but the Chinese refused, so they were tortured until they gave in, and within 200 years Muslims were cranking out books and flooding their realms with cheep reads covering everything from science to philosophy to mathematics to love stories etc. etc.

At that time, even a rich European was lucky to own 6-9 books, whereas one could take a boat to Tangier and there were whole shopping districts full of book stores stacked floor-to-ceiling with everything you'd ever want to read, and it was books from those stores and others in Egypt etc. making their way into Europe that lead to the European Renaissance, breaking the dark-age shackles of the Roman Catholic church on Europe and leading to modern civilization.

And now you just want to sit there and sulk and dumb yourself down with Quran interpreters like Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly who says that Mars has oceans and an atmosphere with sentient life, and is bigger than Earth.

If you ever want to immigrate to the US, tell them that, and tell them you love Fox News, and they'll think you're a fit. Or if you want to immigrate to Canada, tell them Al-Hilly's visions of the Earth stopping its rotation, then tell them you're a great fan of Stephen Harper and Stockwell Day, and that too will be seen as a fit.

 

[eanassir]

Oh really. So Muslim Arabs just sauntered up to a city, unarmed, waved a copy of the Quran in the air, and the walls came tumbling down and people came rushing out throwing garlands?
*Groan*... you're sounding like those Americans enamored with Fox News and those Canadians' who'd vote for a Stockwell Day... everybody lobotomize themselves and start reading scriptures in simplistically violent terms.

Anyway, the way the west got paper from China was that at the Battle of Talas, 200,000 Abbasids attacked a forced of 10,000 Tang Chinese and 20,000 Karluk mercenaries, and the Karluk merceneries realized they were outnumbered almost ten to one, so they switched sides in the middle of the battle because they figured they'd get better treatment if they were on the winning side, and so 220,000 Abbisids and Karluk mercenaries crushed 10,000 Tang Chinese, who got away with 2000 survivors...

But not all Chinese survivors escaped... a few prisoners of war knew how to make paper, which was a Chinese trade secret, so they were taken to Samarkand and ordered to start making paper and show the Abbasids how it was done, but the Chinese refused, so they were tortured until they gave in, and within 200 years Muslims were cranking out books and flooding their realms with cheep reads covering everything from science to philosophy to mathematics to love stories etc. etc.

At that time, even a rich European was lucky to own 6-9 books, whereas one could take a boat to Tangier and there were whole shopping districts full of book stores stacked floor-to-ceiling with everything you'd ever want to read, and it was books from those stores and others in Egypt etc. making their way into Europe that lead to the European Renaissance, breaking the dark-age shackles of the Roman Catholic church on Europe and leading to modern civilization.

And now you just want to sit there and sulk and dumb yourself down with Quran interpreters like Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly who says that Mars has oceans and an atmosphere with sentient life, and is bigger than Earth.

If you ever want to immigrate to the US, tell them that, and tell them you love Fox News, and they'll think you're a fit. Or if you want to immigrate to Canada, tell them Al-Hilly's visions of the Earth stopping its rotation, then tell them you're a great fan of Stephen Harper and Stockwell Day, and that too will be seen as a fit.

When I told you that you are rancorous, I wasn't wrong.
So Muslims fought the Chinese and made agreement with some party against another party who were outnumbered 10 to 1 then the remained Chineese were tortured ...etc.
How did you believe such story out of the history :roll:

Moreover, if you don't believe that many cities welcomed Muslims, it is up to you; but at least see what the people of Jerusalem did and they requested that the Caliph himself should come to give him the keys of the city.

And many other cities, and people converted in thousands without forcing or obliging them to do so.

And see the hundreds of millions of Muslims in such countries as Malyisia and Indonesia who converted without war; only with contact with Muslims: merchants and others.

But it is your background and rancor that prevents you from considering this, and only to believe such false stories told by clergies and some pharisees and scribes, racorous like you.

Moreover, many European and American and Canadian and others do convert every year without being forced or obliged to do so.

 

[Omicron]

When I told you that you are rancorous, I wasn't wrong.

Yeah... but... you're not speaking directly from the Quran.

You're just parroting stuff said by Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.

That make you a cultist.

Ever been to that place in the middle east where there's a flame in a cave, which some Bedoins go into to worship?

They say that because Allah is perfectly good, the only thing to fear is Satan, so they teach one must bow to the flame of Satan in that cave.

When Christians have cults they tend to worship UFOs and drink suicide Kool-Aid, and when Jews get cults they can only feel love, hate and fear and get headaches when required to think logically, but when you have a cult you talk about Mars being bigger than earth with an atmosphere and oceans and people from whom Allah has raised prophets.

Man-oh-man... you really need to get back to what you used to be like when you were the intellectual center of civilization in the 8th and 9th century.

 

[eanassir]

We follow the devotion to God alone and follow the Quran

Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly was concerned with the Quran interpretation; when he was asked about many other subjects specially when the asker was a cunning one, his answer was: "I am only specialized in the Quran interpretation; ask me about the Quran exclusively."

Moreover, I have no cult; just like the late interpreter, no cult is intended; only to reform the Muslim and invite the non-Muslim; only that's it no more: only to reform others and not to invent any cult.

Therefore, I follow the Quran and its interpretation and I don't belong to any cult.

Comment:
When Prophet Mohammed - salam be to him - was asked: "Will you follow the way of Christians or the way of Jews?"
God told him to follow the creed of Abraham in his devotion to God alone, and that Abraham was neither a Jew nor yet any Christian: he was their grandfather and was against the idolatry and broke up the idols of his people.

And likewise the late interpreter Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly was asked: "What's your sect?" He answered: "I don't belong to any of these sects; I follow the way of Prophet Mohammed and the believers with him."

www.quran-ayat.com

============================================================

What you said about the Bedwin Arab and their cave that you claim; it isn't any strange thing; it is called the Jahiliah or the ignorance of the pre-Islam that has returned once again.

Most of people everywhere follow their traditions and the "ignorance": they follow Satan and their inventions that are not revealed from God Almighty. And most people follow the enthusiasm about their prophets and religious leadera and their patrons.

As God said in the Quran 6: 116
وَإِن تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَن فِي الأَرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَن سَبِيلِ اللّهِ إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلاَّ الظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلاَّ يَخْرُصُونَ

The explanation:
(If you obey most of the [people] on earth [in their opinions], they will lead you astray far from God's way [because] they only follow surmise and only they insist on lying.)

The association : sharing or polytheism
Kinds of God worshipping

So if you are just and fair, why don't you criticize your people in the first place and see their glorifying their religious men and the erection of statues in the churches in case you are Christian, and the visiting of the graves of the religious men in case you are Jew in stead of criticizing the Bedwin that are far from you?

 

[damngrumpy]

If the Muslims Holy Book is so peaceful how come there are so many references
to killing infidels? You know people who don't think like they do.
Why is it there are no Baptist Terrorists, but we hear lots about Islamic ones?
We hear about the fancy phrases of the Bible and the Quran but they don't mean
much when the so called believers behave the way they do. The problem is most
religions feel threatened by non believers and doubters, because they are afraid
somehow the faith of others will be shaken. Seems funny to me, if they had God
on their side in reality they should feel more secure than that.
If not by religion, then by their customs, they behave like savages.

What is that saying, lie down with dogs you wake up with fleas.

 

[Omicron]

We follow the devotion to God alone and follow the Quran

Good. If you're on Allah/God's side, then that's good to know. Nice to meet you.

The issue is Sharia Law.

Sharia Law works in deserts dominated by war lords, because without it there is no law, and we already know all about brats who like making themselves look big under the legal system, yet not a whit before the Almighty.

If you want to live under Sharia Law, then go live in a desert, but we already have law, and it ain't inexcusably bad except for if Harper/Day get a majority then it could be time to leave for they are like Puritan Christians burning witches.

Hmm... what if you were to set up an academy like you used to have in Baghdad?

 

[damngrumpy]

I can't help but wonder sometimes how people in the twenty first century can bow
their heads and pray to something they know nothing about. The Bible, was written
long after Chris's death. If you read the four gospels you discover they don't match up, and there are several thoughts missing. Later history demonstrates there were
in fact other gospels that were excluded, worked written by the apostles.
The four books Mathew, Mark, Luke and John were entered as a compromise. as
there was a major fight for control of the Christian faith. The whole truth was set
aside in order to keep the church together. It had nothing to do with being Gods
word and it also had nothing to do with the truth about anything.
On the other hand the Quran was founded on violence disguised with peaceful
passages. There is no central image and its pretty sinister, these people have
not mentally developed since the middle ages. They are stoning people, killing
people and oppressing anyone who dares not think like they do.
If these people don't want to join the modern world they have no place living
in it, let them go to where ever they will be happy, anywhere but here.
I wouldn't want to be a Muslim when all the trouble starts, for I truly believe
people will not be tolerant of them here in the west. Democracy shoul be
reserved for those who chose to participate, not try to manipulate. As for
where do I fit into this religiously? I am a retired Catholic, but I ran into trouble
when I started thinking for myself. Muslims or Christians or Jews?
Ones as bad as the other.

 

[eanassir]

If the Muslims Holy Book is so peaceful

The Quran is peaceful to the peaceful and war to the transgressor.
========================================================

Good. If you're on Allah/God's side, then that's good to know. Nice to meet you.

The issue is Sharia Law.

Sharia Law works in deserts dominated by war lords, because without it there is no law, and we already know all about brats who like making themselves look big under the legal system, yet not a whit before the Almighty.

If you want to live under Sharia Law, then go live in a desert, but we already have law, and it ain't inexcusably bad except for if Harper/Day get a majority then it could be time to leave for they are like Puritan Christians burning witches.

Hmm... what if you were to set up an academy like you used to have in Baghdad?

When I told you you are rancorous, I was not wrong. Rancor oozes everywhere from the pores of your replies.

You have some right "Sharia Law works in deserts dominated by war lords, because without it there is no law"

I read some of this in a book by Ali Al-Wardi a sociologist: A study about the nature of the Iraqi community ; it is very valuable; although I couldn't read it all; it is written in Arabic. Very nice indeed.

You have to differntiate between God's law and the traditional law, between God's worship in its exclusively pure way and the distorted worship by means of the enthusiasm and the annovation.

Because the ignorant will think all that is religion; while no, the religion of God came to fight such customs although much of it is deemed as religion.

E.g. visiting the graves of the imams and saints is thought by some as it is the religion; while it is against the religion of God; some people do not discriminate between praying God to grant them their request, and between praying the saints or imams for the same purpose.

What is the idolatry then? Originally it was the religion of the devotion to God alone, then it changed by time to glorifying the apostles and angels and making statues for them and then asking the needs from such statues or from the spirits of the dead prophets (in stead of asking the needs from God Most Gracious.)

So the Bedwin (and the rural and now also the urban): what they practice? They don't practice the religion of God; but they glorify the graves of the dead righteous men making such graves like idols worshipped apart from God Almighty.

While it is narrated that Imam Ali- salam be to him - said: "God's apostle sent me in a campaign to Yemen to destroy every constructed grave and to break up every erected idol."

So what do the rural people (and in the desert) in all the Muslim countries do now?

They make the maqam and shrine of invented imams: they invent some imaginary imam and build a monument for him to sanctify: they visit it and holify it and swear by it, and resort to swearing in that maqam to solve their problems, because they afraid lest that (imaginary: now has becom dogmatic) would afflict them by all curse and harm.
About the monotheism in the Bible

Trully, God's religion came essetially against such ignorance, enthusiasm, association and idolatry.

So what you say about the law of the desert: if it does not rely on God's Quran, then it is the traditional law which is the falsehood and against the true religion of God.
============================================================

I can't help but wonder sometimes how people in the twenty first century can bow
their heads and pray to something they know nothing about. The Bible, was written
long after Chris's death. If you read the four gospels you discover they don't match up, and there are several thoughts missing. Later history demonstrates there were
in fact other gospels that were excluded, worked written by the apostles.
The four books Mathew, Mark, Luke and John were entered as a compromise. as
there was a major fight for control of the Christian faith. The whole truth was set
aside in order to keep the church together. It had nothing to do with being Gods
word and it also had nothing to do with the truth about anything.
On the other hand the Quran was founded on violence disguised with peaceful
passages. There is no central image and its pretty sinister, these people have
not mentally developed since the middle ages. They are stoning people, killing
people and oppressing anyone who dares not think like they do.
If these people don't want to join the modern world they have no place living
in it, let them go to where ever they will be happy, anywhere but here.
I wouldn't want to be a Muslim when all the trouble starts, for I truly believe
people will not be tolerant of them here in the west. Democracy shoul be
reserved for those who chose to participate, not try to manipulate. As for
where do I fit into this religiously? I am a retired Catholic, but I ran into trouble
when I started thinking for myself. Muslims or Christians or Jews?
Ones as bad as the other.

Grumpy, you are damned and condamned :lol: ; what's all this mixing and confusion?
Do you belong to this 21st century or to the previous 20th century which will not make you any truth seeker?

I wouldn't want to be a Muslim

Be a Muslim, please damngrumpy :smile:

Muslims or Christians or Jews?
Ones as bad as the other.

What are you then? Give me a book from God better than the Torah and the Quran that I should follow.

If you truly (which I doubt) want sincerely to reach the truth as issued from God the All-Knowing then follow the Quran and its marvelous ayat, and if not then you are condemned, damngrumpy.

 

[Cliffy]

The Quran is peaceful to the peaceful and war to the transgressor.

That judgment belongs to god, not you are any other human. War in the name of god s still an act of murder. It is against all laws of the creator that I have read. If the Quran condones or commands that war be waged against the transgressor, then it is not the word of the creator.

What are you then? Give me a book from God better than the Torah and the Quran that I should follow.

If you truly (which I doubt) want sincerely to reach the truth as issued from God the All-Knowing then follow the Quran and its marvelous ayat, and if not then you are condemned, damngrumpy.

If you believe that you can communicate with the creator, then you don't need any books. If you want to know the truth, you can go straight to the source. You don't need prophets or imams or any intermediaries. Books a were written by men and therefore are flawed by their own prejudices and temperaments. Memerizing a bunch of stuff somebody wrote 1400 years ago is not going to get you any closer to the creator. Go out into the wilderness like Jesus and Mohammad supposedly did, shed all your worldly views and worries, clear you mind and then maybe the creator will tell you what it expects of you. You want the truth, you have to pay the price of fasting, meditating and facing your own personal demons, just the way Jesus did. All religions are false because they take away you personal responsibility to life and the creator. They try to convince you that they have all the answers, but they don't have any, just someone's opinion.

 

[eanassir]

Every now and then, Cliffy gives us some of his non-responsible fallacies :-x like some here:

If the Quran condones or commands that war be waged against the transgressor, then it is not the word of the creator.

What is this? 8O

This is in the Quran 2: 194
الشَّهْرُ الْحَرَامُ بِالشَّهْرِ الْحَرَامِ وَالْحُرُمَاتُ قِصَاصٌ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ فَاعْتَدُواْ عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ

The explanation:
(An inviolable month for an inviolable month, and inviolable [things] demand retaliation,
and whoso transgresses against you [believers], then transgress against him in like manner as he transgresses against you, but ward off [the disobedience of God] and know that God is with those who ward off [His disobedience.])

The meaning: There are 4 inviolable months of the lunar calendar, during such months no war and no fighting and no chase is allowed; but evenso when disbelievers start the offense against believers during such inviolable months, then they can fight during these months also.
And any forbidden thing they transgress concerning it, then believers can transgress on the transgressor in the same manner.
And whoso transgresses against you [believers], then transgress against him in like manner as he transgresses against you

If you believe that you can communicate with the creator, then you don't need any books. If you want to know the truth, you can go straight to the source. You don't need prophets or imams or any intermediaries.

How do you do that, Cliffy?:roll: Then no need for Moses, and you go talk with God as you like, and He speaks to you? as did He speak to Moses on the Mount Hor.

Yes, man can pray God, and God will not speak to such man; He only preferred His servant Moses by His speaking and He revealed to His prophets and apostles and others whatever He please.

Books a were written by men and therefore are flawed by their own prejudices and temperaments.

Memerizing a bunch of stuff somebody wrote 1400 years ago is not going to get you any closer to the creator.

Go out into the wilderness like Jesus and Mohammad supposedly did, shed all your worldly views and worries, clear you mind and then maybe the creator will tell you what it expects of you.

You want the truth, you have to pay the price of fasting, meditating and facing your own personal demons, just the way Jesus did.

All religions are false because they take away you personal responsibility to life and the creator. They try to convince you that they have all the answers, but they don't have any, just someone's opinion.

What wisdom! What wisdom! Did you practice such suggestions; it seems you are one of the Sufi or received revelation of it not of His.

Certainly and without any doubt you only follow Satan.

 

[Cliffy]

Every now and then, Cliffy gives us some of his non-responsible fallacies :-x like some here:




What is this? 8O

This is in the Quran 2: 194
الشَّهْرُ الْحَرَامُ بِالشَّهْرِ الْحَرَامِ وَالْحُرُمَاتُ قِصَاصٌ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ فَاعْتَدُواْ عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ

The explanation:
(An inviolable month for an inviolable month, and inviolable [things] demand retaliation,
and whoso transgresses against you [believers], then transgress against him in like manner as he transgresses against you, but ward off [the disobedience of God] and know that God is with those who ward off [His disobedience.])

The meaning: There are 4 inviolable months of the lunar calendar, during such months no war and no fighting and no chase is allowed; but evenso when disbelievers start the offense against believers during such inviolable months, then they can fight during these months also.
And any forbidden thing they transgress concerning it, then believers can transgress on the transgressor in the same manner.
And whoso transgresses against you [believers], then transgress against him in like manner as he transgresses against you



How do you do that, Cliffy?:roll: Then no need for Moses, and you go talk with God as you like, and He speaks to you? as did He speak to Moses on the Mount Hor.

Yes, man can pray God, and God will not speak to such man; He only preferred His servant Moses by His speaking and He revealed to His prophets and apostles and others whatever He please.



What wisdom! What wisdom! Did you practice such suggestions; it seems you are one of the Sufi or received revelation of it not of His.

Certainly and without any doubt you only follow Satan.

Yes I went out into the wilderness for ten years. Nature is the result of creation. In it one will find the truth about life in all its beauty and horror. Few are willing to take that journey, so they rely on the opinions of others to tell them what is theirs to find out. Your obsession with the Quran borders on idolatry. It is just a book of paper and ink. It has some useful and some very dangerous information in it, just like the bible does, but it is not the truth. If you prefer to live your life in the idolization of Mohammed and his opinions, that is your problem. I assure you, you are farting in the wind. Religion is for those who cannot handle the truth.

 

[Eutaphodia]

I was raised Christian with three years of religious studies as a teen and was a Sunday school teacher and summer vacation bible school teacher - today I no longer call myself a Christion. I was fortunate to have had a very close friend, Jessie who is Muslim, during elementary school to high school. Even though both of our family lifes were so different, we still had a mutal respect for our upbringing.

In June 1977, on the night of my grade 12 graduation, Jessie married a young muslim man, who was chosen by her parents. Unfortunately, I could not attend her wedding as my graduation had taken place at the exact time as Jessie was married.

Jessie and I both knew from that day forward, our friendship was pulled apart as she now had to honour her husband and his family.

From my relationship with my Canadian born Muslim girlfriend, I have never found Muslims threatening, and feel not all Muslims believe in Sharia Law as shown below.

I would like to hear from Canadian born Muslim's on the following Sharia Law. If I was a male or female born into a Canadian Muslim family, I could not honour Sharia Law and wonder how Canadian Muslims deal with this religious law.

Sharia Law

1- Jihad, defined as “to war against non-Muslims to establish the religion,” is the duty of every Muslim and Muslim head of state (Caliph). Muslim Caliphs who refuse jihad are in violation of Sharia and unfit to rule.
2- A Caliph can hold office through seizure of power meaning through force.
3- A Caliph is exempt from being charged with serious crimes such as murder, adultery, robbery, theft, drinking and in some cases of rape.
4- A percentage of Zakat (charity money) must go towards jihad.
5- It is obligatory to obey the commands of the Caliph, even if he is unjust.
6- A caliph must be a Muslim, a non-slave and a male.
7- The Muslim public must remove the Caliph if he rejects Islam.
8- A Muslim who leaves Islam must be killed immediately.
9- A Muslim will be forgiven for murder of: 1) an apostate 2) an adulterer 3) a highway robber. Vigilante street justice and honor killing is acceptable.
10- A Muslim will not get the death penalty if he kills a non-Muslim, but will get it for killing a Muslim.
11- Sharia never abolished slavery, sexual slavery and highly regulates it. A master will not be punished for killing his slave.
12- Sharia dictates death by stoning, beheading, amputation of limbs, flogging even for crimes of sin such as adultery.
13- Non-Muslims are not equal to Muslims under the law. They must comply to Islamic law if they are to remain safe. They are forbidden to marry Muslim women, publicly display wine or pork, recite their scriptures or openly celebrate their religious holidays or funerals. They are forbidden from building new churches or building them higher than mosques. They may not enter a mosque without permission. A non-Muslim is no longer protected if he leads a Muslim away from Islam.
14- It is a crime for a non-Muslim to sell weapons to someone who will use them against Muslims. Non-Muslims cannot curse a Muslim, say anything derogatory about Allah, the Prophet, or Islam, or expose the weak points of Muslims. But Muslims can curse non-Muslims.
15- A non-Muslim cannot inherit from a Muslim.
16- Banks must be Sharia compliant and interest is not allowed.
17- No testimony in court is acceptable from people of low-level jobs, such as street sweepers or bathhouse attendants. Women in low level jobs such as professional funeral mourners cannot keep custody of their children in case of divorce.
18- A non-Muslim cannot rule — even over a non-Muslim minority.
19- Homosexuality is punishable by death.
20- There is no age limit for marriage of girls. The marriage contract can take place anytime after birth and can be consummated at age 8 or 9.
21- Rebelliousness on the part of the wife nullifies the husband’s obligation to support her, gives him permission to beat her and keep her from leaving the home.
22- Divorce is only in the hands of the husband and is as easy as saying: “I divorce you” and becomes effective even if the husband did not intend it.
23- There is no community property between husband and wife and the husband’s property does not automatically go to the wife after his death.
24- A woman inherits half what a man inherits.
25- A man has the right to have up to 4 wives and none of them have a right to divorce him — even if he is polygamous.
26- The dowry is given in exchange for the woman’s sexual organs.
27- A man is allowed to have sex with slave women and women captured in battle, and if the enslaved woman is married her marriage is annulled.
28- The testimony of a woman in court is half the value of a man.
29- A woman loses custody if she remarries.
30- To prove rape, a woman must have 4 male witnesses.
31- A rapist may only be required to pay the bride-money (dowry) without marrying the rape victim.
32- A Muslim woman must cover every inch of her body, which is considered “Awrah,” a sexual organ. Not all Sharia schools allow the face of a woman exposed.
33- A Muslim man is forgiven if he kills his wife at the time he caught her in the act of adultery. However, the opposite is not true for women, since the man “could be married to the woman he was caught with.”
34-It is obligatory for a Muslim to lie if the purpose is obligatory. That means that for the sake of abiding with Islam’s commandments, such as jihad, a Muslim is obliged to lie and should not have any feelings of guilt or shame associated with this kind of lying.