French Language On Packaging

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
English is the second or third most widely spoken language in the world today. A total of 600–700 million people use the various dialects of English regularly.

Notice the word "dialect". Are you aware that Cambrige University sometimes includes Tok Pisin in its equation? It might be English, but I still can't understand it.

About 377 million people use one of the versions of English as their mother tongue, and an equal number of people use them as their second or foreign language.

And how many know more than one dialect, or how to avoid confusion caused by words with different meanings in different countries, such as even the simples words like "fag" and "billion". I mean, for crying out loud, what other language has two meanings for a MATHEMATICAL NUMBER.

English is used widely in either the public or private sphere in more than 100 countries all over the world.

And le't look at the consequences:

1. Legal I myslef have had to see lawyers once (not cheap), nearly openned a case (on another occasion) and had to rewrite a contract on yet a third! because the people who were writing this legal contract (all of whom had degrees in English!). had missed various subtleties of the language.

2. General Communication Breakdown

I was eating wiht a fluent teacher of English in a restaurant a few years ago, when I then struck up a conversation with a Pakistani sitting next to us. We talked for about five minutes before the teacher and I finally left. Upon leaving the restaurant, the teacher asked if the Pakistani was speaking in English. I answered yes, and she said: "I thought so, since you were always answering in English."

Shocked, I asked if she had understood a word he had said, and her answer was: "I would never have guessed that he was even speaking in English had you not been there."

In an official meeting in Hefei, communication broke down when the interpreter, with a Master's degree in English, could understand neither Cameroonian nor Australian English, at least during the first fifteem minutes of teh meeting. So I had to intervene for the first few minutes by interpreting from Cameroonian to Canadian, and on some occasions help with some Australian word pronunciations until her ear could start adjusting.

In a restaurant in Beijing in the Summer of 2004, a French woman got into an argument with the waiter because he could not understand her English (she thought he was mocking her English).

During a meeting in Beijing during the same week, in which language experts, including some higher level government officials and experts working for the European government, from various countries had gathered to discuss international language politics, we had speakers speaking in Esperanto, Chinese and "Japanese British English" (i.e. British English with a Japanese accent along with some japanese idiomatic English), along with a Chinese interpreter from US Chinglish (i.e. A Chinese who has learnt US English, but with a Chinese influence) and a British (native English speaker) to Esperanto interpreter who lived in Japan.

A Chinese friend sitting next to me, after having listened to the speech from the Japanese lady, had told me that the translation from English to Esperanto was much better than that of English to Chinese.

Later, once we'd met the British interpreter, he had explained that, having lived in Japan for awhile, he'd learnt how to adjust for the Japanese English in his interpretation.

3. Ethnic Conflict
In China, English is enerally perceived as a white language, whenever a Chinese sees a person with white skin, he will normally automatically address him in English, even if "Hello" is the only word he knows. Now here's the problem. Some Chinese from Northwestern China, are in fact caucasian; needless to say when they are in Beijing and hear "Hello", they are a tad offended by it since it suggests that they are foreigners. Apparently, beijing newspapers have tried educating people about this so it might have improved since then, 2002. I've also met Belgians who do not take kindly to strangers juast assuming they can speak English. In one case on a bus, a Chinese tried to strike up a conversation with one Belgian, in english. The Belgian, in Chinese (he was studying Chinese at a local univisity) answered: "Do I look British?"

Chinese: "I don't know."

He: "Well, I'm not; I'm Belgian. Are you British?"

Chinese: "No."

He: "So if you're Chinese, and I'm Belgian, the we can eitehr speak in Chinese or French." The Chinese passenger chose Chinese, and I laughed.

In addition, many white Chinese, Russians, Frenchmen and others (some with very bad English) can find teaching jobs very easily, while Canadians, Americans and Britons with yellow skin have a hard time with it. This has likewsie lead to racial tensions over language. I've known of a few cases of white staff either walking out or threatening to walk out upon learning of their employer's whites only, or no-blacks or no-yellows policies (and yes, they will discriminate against their own since they perceive English to be an exclusively white language). This has also lead to native speakers of English prefering to speak in any language other than English on their own time as a kind of protest against such racism (needless to say, this is of great benefit to those Chinese learning French, Spanish or other popular second languages in Englsih speaking countries, since they are the ones with whom the foreigners usually end up making friends outside of work).


In addition, the language has occupied a primary place in international academic and business communities.

To some extent; but again, many academicians still can't speak English.

The current status of the English language at the start of the new millennium compares with that of Latin in the past.

Similar, but with a difference. Back then, it was fine if only the elites could speak Latin. Today, with the advent of new philosophies increasingly placing emphasis the notion of the "right to communicate", limiting the bridge language to the elites only leads to heightennedconflicts. In Chinese internet forums, for instance, China's English language policy is increasingly being challenged as creating a world of linguistic haves and have-nots contributing to China's finest talents leaving the country and contributing to the economies of English-speaking coutries, as well as giving significant economic advantages to the upper classes who have access to more highly qualified teachers over those of the poorer classes who can't afford such teachers.

This perception that native speakers have an unfair advantage in the world has also lead to a certain bigotry envy, which again doesn't contribute to healthy racial and ethnic relations in China.

English is also the most widely used language for young backpackers who travel across continents, regardless of whether it is their mother tongue or a secondary language.

And this is about the only use for which it doeasn't cause too many problems. But remember, "ackpacker English"doesn't require a high level of language ability.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Re: RE: French Language On Packaging

Finder said:
iamcanadian said:
French (français) is the third largest of the Romance languages in terms of number of native speakers, after Spanish and Portuguese, being spoken by about 87 million people as a mother tongue, and altogether by some 182 million people, which includes second-language speakers who use French for daily communication. Moreover, an extra 82 million people are presently learning French through the world. [2]

French is thus the 15th most spoken language in the world by number of native speakers, and 5th in terms of daily speakers. It is an official language in 29 countries.

wiki: French Languaage

182 Million people world wide understand or use French at all.

The world population is the total number of humans alive on the planet Earth at a given time. According to estimates published by the United States Census Bureau[1], the Earth's population hit 6.5 billion on Saturday February 25, 2006.[2]

This is 2.8% of the worlds population

for English on the otherhand:

English is the second or third most widely spoken language in the world today. A total of 600–700 million people use the various dialects of English regularly. About 377 million people use one of the versions of English as their mother tongue, and an equal number of people use them as their second or foreign language. English is used widely in either the public or private sphere in more than 100 countries all over the world. In addition, the language has occupied a primary place in international academic and business communities. The current status of the English language at the start of the new millennium compares with that of Latin in the past. English is also the most widely used language for young backpackers who travel across continents, regardless of whether it is their mother tongue or a secondary language.


Well if it's down to f*cking numbers and you discredit a whole f*cking race because they don't over populate then you must have the same feeling for my people too. The Celtic people. We number a little over 5 million speckers world wide and countless millions who don't speck our mother tongue anymore. So if you discredit the french language just because only 120someodd million speck it well I have nothing to say to a racist like you anymore.

It's people like you who repressed my people and my people were left poor and destude and nobody helped them. What did we have left at the turn of the 20th centry.... nothing!!! besides ourselves and guns. What did we do to get back our pride from our opressors.... we had to kill them and kill the people helping them. Yes we finally gained a little chunk of a gaulic nation the only free gaulic nation in the world! But we fought for it with the strongest empire who discredited our nation, our people our tongue because they thought they were better. I have no pitty for opressors who had the same idea's as you who died by my peoples hands in the fight for independance.

I can't believe I've allowed your ignorance to piss me off like this. But it's people like you who's ignorance have allowed oppression in the world and intolerance.

Hey, Finder.

No need to get pissed off. Just get even!

http://www.bowks.net/worldlang/aux/b_MinPubInst.html

The Italians decided to simply promote an alternative to English. We don't need to kill, just give alternatives.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Re: RE: French Language On Packaging

Knoss said:
I think it is important to recognize international standards and we should develope a writen language of symbols many of wich are already sandardized.

The problem with that is that it's political in the extreme!

Immagine that the international standard for "Billion ought to mean "1,000,000,000". Some Brits, especially the more etymologically inclined, wouldn't be happy.

Try to impose the metric system on the US.

For computer search engines and non-native speakers looking up a word in the dictionary, standardized spelling might help (after all, if you type color, colour might not show up in some engines. yet are Canadians prepared to accept color?

Let's consider pronunciation too. In the US, latter and ladder are pronouced the same, as are utter and udder, along with many words in which d and t are the same. Consider likewise to, two and too, or kernel and colonel. For non-native speakers, especially when dealing with emergencies or life-threstening conditions, but even for daily activities in computing, speach synthesis, etc., Englsih can be a great obstacle for techincal and social advancement for those who don't learn it well. So while I could certainly support the creation of some kind of internaitonal standard English, I can guarantee it would look nothing like the messes we have now. And that would certainly pit native speakers (who would want to protect their privileged status worldwide) against non-native speakers (who would certainly suport ovrhauling the language). Thus the battle lines would be drawn. And don't forget, even among native speakers, some Canadians and Britons are likewise defensive against the international suppremacy of US English. And others tend to connect English with US politics in their minds, even if only subconsciously, and that only leads to further tensions, conflicts and cultural misunderstandings.
 

Knoss

Nominee Member
Feb 18, 2006
62
0
6
Rockglen, Saskatchewan
USA adopted the metric system in 1988 and is in the process of conversion.

I was mainly reffering to standards such as road signs and to use of things like chemical symbols.

Billion would be 1 000 000 000.000...as 1 000 000 000= 1,000,000,000
not a problem
but of course 100, 000 = 100. 000
problem
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
It's easier said than done. Some would refuse to accept this.

For instance, some would say hundred, thousand, million, billion, trillion.

Others would say hundred, thousand, million, thousand million, billion, thousand billion, trillion.

http://www.jimloy.com/math/billion.htm

You see, the problem is this. To standardize, an international body with the authority to do so must impose a standard. And since language is so attached to cultures, needless to say, many will insist that it must be their standard! For English, I can't see it working; I think we'll just have to live with the mess we have now.

As for the metric system in the US, thanks for the info; I wasn't aware of that.
 

Knoss

Nominee Member
Feb 18, 2006
62
0
6
Rockglen, Saskatchewan
I was reffering to the digit number not the phonetic language. Phonetics as a serise of sopken or writen letter deffinitaly has the problem of which you speak.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
Everyone getting hung up about a silly little stupid thing like which language. Everyone is equal and should be treated equally regardless of their language.

It is what people have to say that is important and not how they say it. People who value how people speak over what people say have shallow intellects.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
Nepoleone never conquered france, he was an officer in the Royalist French Army and then worked his way up in the Republican french Army. After his brother who who was president of the assembly asked him to join in on a Moderate Republican conspiracy to remove the Directory which was extremely unpopuler and did not have support from the left or the right. He was made first concul of the first republic with three other conculs and did not declair himself empor for another 5 years. Yes he was basically a Liberal Dictator but he did not conquered. This has very little to do with battles. Indeed the history of the world has very little to do with battles then social, economic, health and class presurers.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
Re: RE: French Language On Packaging

iamcanadian said:
Everyone getting hung up about a silly little stupid thing like which language. Everyone is equal and should be treated equally regardless of their language.

It is what people have to say that is important and not how they say it. People who value how people speak over what people say have shallow intellects.


The problem is you are contradicting you past assertions saying people don't count because only 140 some odd million people understand a tongue. So keep reading over your last quote... over and over again until you actual believe in what you just said. I think so far your last quote was the most intelligent quote I could come up with in this thread of what you have said.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
Iamcanadian. not to sound as if I'm trying to make you feel bad, because I am not. Perhaps you should read about the french revolution, and on the writers during the enlightment which shaped it. Then when you read on about people like Napoleon you will also see that he wasn't just a great General and empor, he sparked nationalism in europe and you could argue he was the death nail of the old feudal system and the extention of liberal and seculer idealism and in general a slow down in french itself of the radical liberal thought.

Napoleon had a postive effect, on the formation of the Italian Republic and Polish Republic and also indirectly the formation of Germany. But if anything Napoleon's most general contribution to Europe is the modern nation state.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
Napoleone is interpreted as the first anti-christ and Hitler is interpreted as being the second by some people.

The only difference appears to be language. I think that if everyone spoke one common language, regardless which, the world would be a much better place.

The French however don't want that because then they can't feel special by anything more concrete that the frivialities of form rather than matters of substance.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Re: RE: French Language On Packaging

iamcanadian said:
Everyone getting hung up about a silly little stupid thing like which language. Everyone is equal and should be treated equally regardless of their language.

It is what people have to say that is important and not how they say it. People who value how people speak over what people say have shallow intellects.

I do translation sometimes, and it's a nightmare. Here's why:

1. Many Chinese translators mix their British and American Englishes, and then add a whole bunch of Chinglish on top.

Now I gave the example of "billion" above. If I don't know who translated it into English, and the text is mixed coded between British and US, how the heck am I supposed to know what it means?

In addition, if you look at various national and state definitions for "highway", "motorway", "freeway", "expressway", etc., you'll find that while it might be easy to translate them into English (heck, just accept one of the regional standards and that's it), it's much more difficult to translate these terms from English (which regional variant was the person using?).

In some contexts, especially when reading "Chinglish" mixed-coded English, even the meaning of "corn" isn't always obvious (maize or grain?). And what about an "elevator factoty", the elevator industry, etc. Does it lift people or grains, or does it help to raise aircraft into the air? What f*cking elevator are you talking about?

Now I can't think of other examples off the top of my head, but I can say that while it's easy to translate TO English (I used to translate resumes from standard French to Canadian English) since all I need to do is choose a national standard and translate into that, it's not so easy to translate from English if it's already mixed coded (which is the norm in China since they can never decide whethe they prefer US or Bitish and so just keep switching between the two at will!), since too many words have different nuances or even different unrelated meanings outright.

Oh, I just thought of another one. In international English, "College" has so many bloody meanings depending on the national variety (institution which gives Bachelor's but not higher, private residential high school or independant branch of a university, etc.), that in the end, the only clear meaning of it is that it's some kind of educational institution!

I'm sure others will pop into my head as I think about it. So those who don't care about the meaning of what I say might not care about what language I use. But when I want to know the exact f*cking meaning of what a technical text is saying, damned rights I care about the language! I don't want mixed-coded! If it's British, stick with British! If it's US, stick with US! And if there are different meanings within the country, then choose a default jurisdiction, especially for legal and official terminology! And before I even start translating, I expect you to let me know which code you used (if not obvious from context), and that you made a reasonable effort to avoid ambiguity by avoiding homonymns when not obvious by context. I want to know your culture too, since this will also influence my understanding of the f*cking word!

Now I'm trilingual, teach two languages (might teach three soon), have translated between three languages in the past, am currently learning three more languages, and I can tell you that among all the languages I either know or am learning, English in the worst as an international language. In Canada, I know what you're saying because I know you're using Canadian English. In China, I haven't got a f*cking clue if it's technical text since I don't know which f*cking national variety you are using!

So yes I believe in equality, but I also believe in clear and unambiguous communication. And in that respect, English (no offense) is a f*cking mess!

Sorry, just my little rant for today.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Ton! I just thought of another one. Ton! Ehat the f*ck does that mean? Metric? US? Imperial? When I'd fist come across this, I tried to rationalise it. I wasn't aware the US had already switched to metric, was aware China and the UK use metric, but some of the text used US English (color) along with some British (travelling), so I had no idea which "ton" was meant. It was metric in the end, but now that I know the US has finally joined the word on that point, it'll make my translation of that word easier from now on.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
Try French then. You will never learn it enough in your lifetime unless you lived with it as a child.

English is brasterdized and accepted choped up and mixed and matched and people converse just fine.

With French you will sound like an idiot conversing even after ten years of practice and those that speak it properly will look down on your errors and shortcommings.

Again the beauty of English is that no matter how bad you speak it, it is still acceptable and understandable. Frencaphones can't undestand each othe between French, Quebecois and any other. The dialecs are too different.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Re: RE: French Language On Packaging

iamcanadian said:
Again the beauty of English is that no matter how bad you speak it, it is still acceptable and understandable. Frencaphones can't undestand each othe between French, Quebecois and any other. The dialecs are too different.

Really? Strange. So why is it that every time I try to translate major technical documents from English, myriad meanings of every every second word pop into my head as I'm trying to figure out which is the intended one?

Please explain that one.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
While English may be beautiful, it is famous for its ambiguity.

Despite English being my first language, I must readily concede that it is confusing at times, and its grammatical and lingual conventions are sometimes contradictory and non-sensical. I would argue that it may be easy to get the fundamentals down, but learning the nuances of proper, albeit confusing English is an art, lol.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
I don't think engilsh is beutiful. It is one of the ungliest patched up languages that keeps changing constantly. These are the beuties of English as a common language that is less discrimination of its users.

All languages are subject to interpretation. But one of the miracles of english is that you have write it all screwed up and spell words ahalf assed and people wikl still know what you are saying.

Its a more abstract lanbguage and thresfro easier and faster to learm and applty and tuype fast.

I made some extra erors in writingh this to prove my pointm becasuye you can;t do this with Ferench or anu other language or people can't read what you wrote at all.

If you don't believe me try writing a screwed up and mispelled sentence in French and you will see that French people can't read it. French is a less forgiving language when applied.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
True,

But more precise none-the-less.

And if English wasn't my native language, I'd have a hell of a time reading your post.